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Old 11-21-2006, 10:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Series-IIA 109 5-Door Cummins 4-BTA Build

I am starting this thread because I am currently in the process of building my first Land Rover and I want a place to show you my progress as well as receive your comments and suggestions. After visiting several other boards I have decided to go with Pirate because you guys and gals seem to have the most useful discussions with the most knowledgeable members while still managing to have some fun at the newbies expense....

I have helped a friend build one of his S-IIA's into a rock crawler and also worked a fair bit on his other S-IIA.

So, here is a list of my current pile of parts I am trying to assemble:

S-IIA 109"
Custom Chassis (ex-Mod S-III 109" for sale soon in Rover Garage Sale, EDIT: Sold that thing a while back...)
Cummins 4-BTA 3.9L Turbo Diesel 126HP 343ft-lb version I believe (data plate is lost, from 14,000lb Bread Truck step-van)
New Venture 4500HD 5-Speed
Dana 300 Transfer Case
IH Scout II Dana 44 axles front and rear
IH Scout II Steering Box

I am probably going to need a whole lot more, but this is what I have to work with at the moment....

To enhance your viewing pleasure, here is a picture of the S-IIA I helped my friend Matt build. Our friend Sean over at Bad Apple Fab actually did most of the helping, and he also helped me make my frame rails and dent my oil pan, that story will follow soon.


I really need to get this picture thing figured out properly....

Patrick
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Last edited by cumminsrover; 11-14-2012 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Not using Series-III parts anymore (well, maybe door latches)
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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If I ever find the pictures of going to get the parts I will post them, but something tells me they are lost forever

First things first, I need a frame to attach everything to.
2"x6" 1/8" wall tubing makes up the main rails and bumpers.
I used my ex-Mod S-111 109 chassis as a template (I will put that chassis in the garage sale some time, feel free to ask about it).

In my infinite wisdom, I made some minor modifications to the basic design of the chassis to help protect the body a bit more from damage. It turned out fine and dandy at the rear, but the rear mod caused me to mis-measure (like 4 times) and I got the front bumper about 2" farther forward than I wanted it as you will see later. I don't think it is a big problem because it is actually only as far out as an ARB winch bumper for a Defender, but it does look a bit goofy and I am trying to figure out the most painless fix.

I also needed recovery points, after all what good is a great frame and rig if you have no way to get unstuck, after all I am not building a mall poser although I may add some fully functional poser features for fun though
We made the recovery points from 5/8" by 3-1/2" plate that extends fully through the 2"x6" bumpers well on to the main frame rails. I hope they don't come off... That is a 3/4" 5-1/2Ton shackle in the picture.

So here are some pics of the base frame rails and recovery points.
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Last edited by cumminsrover; 10-12-2008 at 12:27 PM. Reason: Picture problems, not sure how to fix yet without an external image host...(i need to read the other help threads)
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:30 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Bumpers tapered and attached, no turning back now....
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:39 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Test fitting the Cummins 4-BTA 3.9 and the NV4500HD in the frame.
The Bulkhead needs some major mods because the transmission is so huge and the turbo runs into the passenger side foot well (aka the proper driver's side)
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Last edited by cumminsrover; 10-12-2008 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 11-21-2006, 11:57 AM   #5 (permalink)
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YES!!!

I love people that take the plunge and build their own frames

What are the plans for suspension?
Going to narrow the D-44's?
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The Bulkhead has been temporarily modified until I can rebuild it.

The brackets for hydraulic motor mounts from the bread truck also had to be modified a bit to fit the rover's narrower frame rails. Luckily there was just enough room to use the mounts from the bread truck so I shouldn't be sitting inside a paint shaker when I am finished. Take a look at Sean's welds behind the bracket, aren't they pretty??? That is Sean standing in front of the Rover, which is in his shop at Bad Apple Fab.
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Last edited by cumminsrover; 10-12-2008 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:08 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloharover
YES!!!

I love people that take the plunge and build their own frames

What are the plans for suspension?
Going to narrow the D-44's?
I plan on sort of "copying" Clayton Off-Road's Long arm and 4-Link suspension with AiRock for springs. My arms are going to be a bit longer since my wheel base will be 110" I am moving the rear axle back an inch to make it look better, like a D-110. The rear wheel is a bit far forward on a 109 for my liking...

As for the axle width, I plan on finding the correct offset wheels. A stock Scout II axle with the stock wheel (flange is centered) fits perfectly under a Series Rover. The track is a bit wider, but it looks good. I will have to search for a pic of Matt's Scout chassis'd S-11A aka "the ScRover"
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks for the encouragement aloharover!!!

I have to get my freind to send me a picture of the ScRover, but it will probably take a while....
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Interesting. I don't know that I see the benefit of the custom frame, but hey, what ever floats your boat.

Also the front bumper looks seriously weird in that it looks like a rear cross member and, as you mention, sticks out WAY too far.

These minor criticisms aside, it looks like you are well on your way. Scout II axles are great for a rover size wise.

Ron
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cumminsrover
I plan on sort of "copying" Clayton Off-Road's Long arm and 4-Link suspension with AiRock for springs. My arms are going to be a bit longer since my wheel base will be 110" I am moving the rear axle back an inch to make it look better, like a D-110. The rear wheel is a bit far forward on a 109 for my liking...

As for the axle width, I plan on finding the correct offset wheels. A stock Scout II axle with the stock wheel (flange is centered) fits perfectly under a Series Rover. The track is a bit wider, but it looks good. I will have to search for a pic of Matt's Scout chassis'd S-11A aka "the ScRover"
There is a guy in Tidewater VA that put Rover outers onto Scout axles.

Cool idea on the AiRocks. I was looking at them, but too much $$ for me at the current time
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Interesting. I don't know that I see the benefit of the custom frame, but hey, what ever floats your boat.
For me, I spent ~300$ on my new frame.

Also if you are doing a custom suspension it can help greatly to just build the frame to fit.
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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should be an interesting conversion. I like the frame but you should cut the front bumper back or push the engine and bulkhead forward.

-ben
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The Rover after its trip to my garage....

Sean and I got the frame rails, bumpers, and motor mounts completed. The engine even fits under the hood too. But the firewall needs some help....

We even know that the engine mounts are solidly welded to the frame......

Sean and I were loading the truck onto his trailer to bring it to my house. I had the back end of the frame on the trailer and Sean was using the engine hoist to lift the front of the truck (with the engine and transmission in it).

Sean was maneuvering the hoist around so we could push the truck the rest of the way onto the trailer when somehow (I think on purpose as revenge for dropping clamps, a fluorescent light, and maybe a level ) the engine hoist tipped over and the whole truck came crashing to the ground with a very loud bang. There was no real damage and no one got hurt, and all of the welds held, so no big deal, just a small dent in the oil pan.

This happens to be the second incident involving Sean, his trailer, his driveway, a Land Rover, and me. The first also included a Ford Tempo which got the small dent after rolling back into a Rover......

Though I must say that while I am usually the cause of something getting broken, neither incident happened to be entirely my fault I think someone should have taken "Loading a Trailer 101" while in school.....

This was last winter and there have been no trailer problems for Sean since. I think I am the one who is cursed and I had it coming for things I have broken in the past, Sean never damages anyone else's vehicles...
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aloharover
For me, I spent ~300$ on my new frame.

Also if you are doing a custom suspension it can help greatly to just build the frame to fit.
That is about what I have tied up in steel for my frame.....

To get the Cummins, NV4500, and custom suspension to fit in the ex-Mod frame I was going to have to cut out every single cross member and remake them. I figured it was easier to start with a clean slate, I also need to fit air tanks and other "junk" and hacking up a frame that is in great shape would have made me sad If anyone wants the frame I will send them pictures, eventually I will put it in the garage sale.

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Old 11-21-2006, 12:25 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m016324
should be an interesting conversion. I like the frame but you should cut the front bumper back or push the engine and bulkhead forward.

-ben
You'll see in up coming pictures, it is not as bad as it looks now with out the rest of the wings and such...
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Yes, I understand it can be cheaper but my main point was there was little that was special about the frame he made and, all and all, seems like it is going to make things more complicated that using the frame he said he already has and is now selling.

Of course, if I lived by such rules I would not own rovers!
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ok, so here is a side view of where I sit a little while ago. At the resolution limited by the bbs it is a bit hard to see the front bumper. I will have to get better pictures later....
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:48 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Crappy blow-up of the front bumper, I need to get a better picture...


2"x4" 0.120" wall sliders going in, I am sticking them out past the hinges with the hopes of keeping tree contact to a minimum, yes I know the mirrors will stick out past the hinges.... Do you think 0.120" is thick enough, or should I reinforce the outer lower corner with some angle iron???


Here is how the rear bumper turned out, I will have to get some pictures from the rear. Maybe this weekend I will.


The tight fit on the engine.


And a similarly tight fit with the trans an transfer case.
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Last edited by cumminsrover; 08-29-2010 at 08:42 PM. Reason: Pictures were doubled up
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Yes, I understand it can be cheaper but my main point was there was little that was special about the frame he made and, all and all, seems like it is going to make things more complicated that using the frame he said he already has and is now selling.

Of course, if I lived by such rules I would not own rovers!
Yeah, nothing too special, other than I need to get the huge motor and tranny to fit, along with about 25 gallons of diesel, 4-Link rear suspension, Long Arm front suspension, air springs, big intercooler and radiator, and probably 5-7 gallons of air tank (I want to put them just outside the main rails, suggestions please) to fit.

I would have had to cut everything off of the ex-Mod chassis and basically start from scratch, so really the only thing I made new that I could have avoided making were the main rails. But I do understand where you are coming from, that is how I came to own the ex-Mod 109 chassis in the first place!
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Old 11-21-2006, 12:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Are you going to repair the T-peices between the front and middle doors or replace them? If repair it would be interesting to use a reinforced sill piece. Does the rear crossmember stick out beyond the end of the body? Depending on what size tires you are planning to run you might want to move the front axle forward as well. Finally, were you planning on running flares or just keeping the tires and fenders like the 88in the first pic? It seems to me if would be a much better performing platform with less lift than that 88in, at least for that size tire.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:01 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Yeah, nothing too special, other than I need to get the huge motor and tranny to fit, along with about 25 gallons of diesel, 4-Link rear suspension, Long Arm front suspension, air springs, big intercooler and radiator, and probably 5-7 gallons of air tank (I want to put them just outside the main rails, suggestions please) to fit.
Yes, I was referring to the rails. You could use a couple Range Rover air tanks to get you close to the 5-7 gallons. They mount straight to the side of the frame.

As far as the sliders, .120 will be ok but it will dent. The ones I made were 1/4 wall. The biggest thing is getting the extreme front and back tied into the frame so it will not bend upwards.

As far as fuel, a stock Disco I or RRC tank is 23ish gallons (same tank used on a 110 only the 110s used the early metal style not the plastic) and if you kept the rails the same width as the stock frame it will slide in. It also slopes up real nice for a skid plate. Plus they are usually free or close to it.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:08 PM   #22 (permalink)
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You are right that using a stock frame is a a huge PITA for the Cummins. I had to move pretty much every single crossmember around, the one below the bellhousing has to be completely axed, too, a real shame because it's so well made.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Are you going to repair the T-peices between the front and middle doors or replace them? If repair it would be interesting to use a reinforced sill piece. Does the rear crossmember stick out beyond the end of the body? Depending on what size tires you are planning to run you might want to move the front axle forward as well. Finally, were you planning on running flares or just keeping the tires and fenders like the 88in the first pic? It seems to me if would be a much better performing platform with less lift than that 88in, at least for that size tire.
Well, that is the trouble with the T-Pieces, new ones shipped to my door are like $630 for the pair...

So what I was thinking, is to make my own sill pieces (note the pile of steel on the floor) and making new T-Pieces. The curve is no big deal, just cut it off the current T-Pieces, the gasket flange is easy too, but making them in such a way that everything bolts together is going to be tricky.

I also want to cage the truck, so maybe I can make the T-Pieces into part of the middle hoop so they are easier to tie into an external cage. Any thoughts on the material required? I have a bunch of 1"x2" 0.120" wall and it would take at least 2 pieces welded together to make the T-Piece. And there will be a hoop in front and behind of the T-Pieces so how strong do they need to be???

The 88 now has 34x9.50 Super Swamper's and flares, plus we have lowered it about 4 inches. It does much better now.

I was planning on making the bottom of my bumper about 30" and the bottom of the frame rails 25" to the ground with GoodYear MTR 37's or Super Swamper Q78's (36x10.5) So it would work out to about 6 inches over stock chassis height I believe...

I hope to not use flares, but the shocks are 21.5" compressed (according to the Walker Evans site) and that poses some problem in the rear since the tub overhangs the frame by like 3" each side and there is only like 16" from the bottom of the tub to the bottom of the axle tube at my "calculated" full stuff for 37's.

So yes, I have issues, and that is one reason why I came here, for the many "expert" opinions
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilfij
Yes, I was referring to the rails. You could use a couple Range Rover air tanks to get you close to the 5-7 gallons. They mount straight to the side of the frame.

As far as the sliders, .120 will be ok but it will dent. The ones I made were 1/4 wall. The biggest thing is getting the extreme front and back tied into the frame so it will not bend upwards.

As far as fuel, a stock Disco I or RRC tank is 23ish gallons (same tank used on a 110 only the 110s used the early metal style not the plastic) and if you kept the rails the same width as the stock frame it will slide in. It also slopes up real nice for a skid plate. Plus they are usually free or close to it.
Cool! I kept the rails stock width to the outside, so the fuel tank should slide in, I will have to start looking for one of those fuel tanks. It would be a lot easier than making one that is leak proof.

Any idea on the dimensions of the RR air tanks??

Yeah, I thought the sliders were a bit weak, but at the same time the heavier they are the heavier they have to be. Maybe I can get some 2" by 1/8" angle and laminate it to the edge of the slider.

Last edited by cumminsrover; 11-21-2006 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 11-21-2006, 01:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HandBuilt
You are right that using a stock frame is a a huge PITA for the Cummins. I had to move pretty much every single crossmember around, the one below the bellhousing has to be completely axed, too, a real shame because it's so well made.
That is why it would have made me sad to cut up such a great piece of hardware when someone else could use it!
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