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Old 11-08-2013, 10:20 PM   #1 (permalink)
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406/419 Pinion Conversion Latest Version

I had a member ask me to post a few pictures of the latest version of 406/419 pinion conversions.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:12 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Company and pricing?
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Old 11-09-2013, 02:29 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I could be interested in 2, pending price and cost to aus??!!
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Old 11-09-2013, 07:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Company and Pricing

Company = Yours Truly

Pricing = When and if I am running some parts for myself, I will run a couple of extras for my friends and family. The cost to them is materials + machine run time. Material cost seems to fluctuate as bad or worse than the stock market.

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Old 11-09-2013, 07:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Oh gotcha It seemed as it was an advertisement for a new product.I was hopin for more portal aftermarket.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:05 AM   #6 (permalink)
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NICE !! Are those shorter than the average, they look it compared to the one's I got a couple years ago.
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:16 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Length

I cant say that I have ever seen another pinion conversion done by someone else. I have seen a few pictures, but never in person. I will say that I wouldn't want to cut the pinion gear down much further.

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Old 11-15-2013, 09:48 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Picture of Length

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Old 11-19-2013, 02:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thanks XFORDNAP2 for the Mog Porn! Those are pretty

Wish you had a few extra laying around, I am sure they would get snatched up pretty quickly. There are a few of us still waiting to do our conversions. I am one of them.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:54 AM   #10 (permalink)
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how are you retaining the gold flange to the pinion spline?
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Old 11-24-2013, 11:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Flange Attachment

I have turned the pinion shafts down and cut threads on the shaft, just like a traditional pinion gear in a conventional axle. I have also drilled and tapped the center of the pinion shaft and used a bolt and retainer clip from Stage 8 fasteners. If I remember correctly the Stage 8 set up was for the harmonic balancer on a small block Chevrolet. Turning the pinion gear down and cutting the threads can take some time and patience. The pinion gear is hardened and cold rolled. It is usually easier to make a rough cut with an abrasive saw and then working from center line of the shaft either drilling and taping or turning the O.D. down to cut some threads.

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Old 11-25-2013, 06:22 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XFORDNAP2 View Post
I have turned the pinion shafts down and cut threads on the shaft, just like a traditional pinion gear in a conventional axle. I have also drilled and tapped the center of the pinion shaft and used a bolt and retainer clip from Stage 8 fasteners. If I remember correctly the Stage 8 set up was for the harmonic balancer on a small block Chevrolet. Turning the pinion gear down and cutting the threads can take some time and patience. The pinion gear is hardened and cold rolled. It is usually easier to make a rough cut with an abrasive saw and then working from center line of the shaft either drilling and taping or turning the O.D. down to cut some threads.

Thanks

Neither of which can be used with that gold flange? Maybe the threaded pinion option with a large washer.

I used the drill and tap method when I made mine.

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Old 11-29-2013, 09:30 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Attachment

I will post a picture for you, you can still do them either way with the gold flange. The picture of the flange on the cut shaft was one used for test fit on 406 axles. Yes, you would have to drill and tap the center if the were used on that particular pinion. I will look for a finished picture for you.
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Old 10-15-2014, 09:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Old 10-20-2014, 06:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Ben you do some amazing work!
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Old 08-24-2015, 12:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Sceep do you have anymore pics of your pinion conversion you made?
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Old 08-26-2015, 06:44 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Sceep do you have anymore pics of your pinion conversion you made?
a few.







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Old 11-04-2015, 08:36 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by XFORDNAP2 View Post
Company = Yours Truly

Pricing = When and if I am running some parts for myself, I will run a couple of extras for my friends and family. The cost to them is materials + machine run time. Material cost seems to fluctuate as bad or worse than the stock market.

Thanks
So. I sent XFORDNAP2 a PM that he didn't respond to, and that doesn't show in my sent folder so I'm not sure it was really sent. So if he still visits, maybe he'll see this or maybe one of you all will have some info.

I was wondering if since XFORDNAP2 isn't in business selling his pinion conversion if he would be so kind as to share his design. It looks CNC'd so I was hoping for some files as I know some machine shops that could run a few. And if there aren't CAD/CAM files then just some real numbers would be great and I could draw something on paper (I have no software) that I could have made. Ditto with the wheel conversion. I need pinion conversions but not wheel conversions, but if he was sharing those would be nice.

Anyone got any info on XFORDNAP2 or details on this pinion conversion. If this doesn't go anywhere who wants to crowd source a design with me. How about you SCREEP? The goal would be to have something postable for others to access to make or have made their own conversions. Dimensions, diagrams, part numbers for COTS bits etc.

Last edited by Bluemoose1; 11-04-2015 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 01:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So I've been quietly working away trying to design up something like XFORDNAP2's conversion. Got some numbers, got some drawings etc. What happened was I came up with a few things I need BEFORE a pinion conversion can be made.

1) What are the dimensions of the drive flange?
2) How will the drive flange be retained?
3) Will the splines be shortened on the pinion?
4) What is the p/n for the bearing already on the pinion?
5) How much of an interference fit does the bearing above have in the stock application?
6) What are the dimensions for the seal in the stock torque tube?
7) How about a p/n for said seal?
8) A automotive seal reference would be handy. Gotta pick one for the seal on the drive flange.
9) I once heard that you need 1" of spline engagement per 100 hp. Anyone want to corroborate this?
10) 1410, 1480, 1550 what size drive lines we looking at people?
11) Does anyone want to help with this?

I spoke with my machinist. He doesn't want to machine external threads into the pinion shaft like a normal pinion. So he is looking into cutting down the shaft a wee bit (To the bottom of the indent on the pinion shaft indent) and then tapping a 3/4" 10 hole. Any thoughts on this? Shouldn't be more than 1" shorter than stock after cutting it down. I'm a fan of keeping it longish anyway. My drivelines will be long anyway.

Anyone?

It's like talking to crickets here lately.

Last edited by Bluemoose1; 12-02-2015 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:39 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Reply

P.M. sent

Sorry for the delayed reply. It's hard to find time to do it all, some people talk about it, others do it. It's hard to do them both. I have been told, that I am not able to multitask.

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Old 12-16-2015, 09:44 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Answering my own questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluemoose1 View Post
So I've been quietly working away trying to design up something like XFORDNAP2's conversion. Got some numbers, got some drawings etc. What happened was I came up with a few things I need BEFORE a pinion conversion can be made.

1) What are the dimensions of the drive flange?
2) How will the drive flange be retained?
3) Will the splines be shortened on the pinion?
4) What is the p/n for the bearing already on the pinion?
5) How much of an interference fit does the bearing above have in the stock application?
6) What are the dimensions for the seal in the stock torque tube?
7) How about a p/n for said seal?
8) A automotive seal reference would be handy. Gotta pick one for the seal on the drive flange.
9) I once heard that you need 1" of spline engagement per 100 hp. Anyone want to corroborate this?
10) 1410, 1480, 1550 what size drive lines we looking at people?
11) Does anyone want to help with this?

I spoke with my machinist. He doesn't want to machine external threads into the pinion shaft like a normal pinion. So he is looking into cutting down the shaft a wee bit (To the bottom of the indent on the pinion shaft indent) and then tapping a 3/4" 10 hole. Any thoughts on this? Shouldn't be more than 1" shorter than stock after cutting it down. I'm a fan of keeping it longish anyway. My drivelines will be long anyway.

Anyone?

It's like talking to crickets here lately.

1) What are the dimensions of the Drive Flange?
So I’m not an engineer, but my brain work some days. So I took the drive flanges I have for my NP205 and used them as a guide.

a) Output shaft Dia on the NP205 is 1.4”, shaft Dia on the pinion is 1.5”, so .1” bigger. The outside Dia on the NP205 drive flange splined sleeve is 2.125”. Keeping the wall of the splined portion the same thickness yields a drive pinion sleeve outside Dia of 2.225”. So I just rounded up to 2.5”. Makes things a bit beefier and easy to remember.

b) The flange Dia for the NP205 is 5.883 and will mount a 1410, 1480, and some 1550 series U-joints. So I’m keeping that dimension.

c) The Bolt circle is 4.75” and the holes are .5”. Keep in mind that the holes are not 90deg apart. They are 80/100 deg, and form the corners of a rectangle.

d) There is also a dish on the NP205 flange, and there will be a dish on the pinion flange as well, I just haven’t determined how much. Should just be just enough to counter sink the retaining bolt head.

2) How will the drive flange be retained?

a) Drive flange will be retained with a ”/20 x 1 1/4” bolt with a flange head (think built in washer/shoulders/flange) or large washer or some such in order to have the head of the fastener assembly be wider than the splined hole on the pinion flange.

b) Splined hole will be a through hole, so the splines run all the way through and the pinion flange will slide up and down the pinion splines much like the stock driveshaft.

c) Pinion flange needs to be of sufficient length so that it will bottom out on the large castle nut on the pinion flange without the splined pinion shaft sticking out of the pinion flange. If the splines stick out of the pinion flange it becomes extra difficult to retain the flange to the pinion.

d) Stock the pinion splines are 4” long so the sleeve portion of the pinion flange would need to also be 4” long. This sounds excessive, and when I/you go to have your splines installed (cut, broached, machined) it would likely cost extra to have 4” worth of splines installed, vs having the pinion splines shortened and needing less splines on the flange.

3) Will the splines be shortened on the pinion?

a) Yes. Stock the splines are 4”. My NP205 has about 2” worth of spline engagement. I wouldn’t think more is really needed, but this is up to you.

b) My pinions have a beveled hole on the end. My machinist looked at this “hole” and immediately asked if he could cut some spline off to get a flat surface to work with. All this before I mentioned my desire to shorten them anyway.

c) Keep in mind that your pinion flange and the final case piece (what everyone calls the pinion conversion. The big silver widget above from XFORDNAP2 is an excellent example) will need to be of compatible design. So if you are keeping the pinion stock length your pinion flange and case will be 2” longer than another person who shortened their pinion 2”.

d) I’m torn as to how much to cut off. Certainly 4” is too much. The machinist wants to cut at least 1” off. The NP205 Drive flange is only 2”. Shorter splines will be cheaper. So does anyone have any thoughts on final pinion spline length? 2”, 3” 4”?

4) What is the p/n for the bearing on the pinion?

a) Bearing is made by SKF GMBH who ever that is. I’m guessing they are the German Timkin or some such. P/N is 331753. For those of you that know what a NSN is, the NSN for this bearing is 3110-12-175-9149.

5) How much of an interference fit does the bearing above have in the stock application?

a) Opinions vary. Anywhere between .0006” and .0010” per 1.0” of bearing diameter. The outside bearing diameter is 90 mm or 3.54331” this means the interference fit can be between .0021 and .0035”. Things get extra complicated when the bearing is steel and the housing is aluminum, which is what we will have hear. My plan is to go with .003” and call it a day.

6) What are the dimensions for the seal in the stock torque tube?

a) 75 mm inner Dia, 90mm outer dia. Or 2.9526” inner and 3.54331” outer.

7) How about a p/n for said seal?

a) P/N 007 997 18 47 NSN 5330-12-193-4983 made by Daimler Trucks North America LLC. Looks like it is a made out of fluoride rubber, but these are available online. I found some at Expedition Imports for $16.19 ea.

8) A automotive seal reference would be handy. Gotta pick one for the seal on the drive flange.

a) Timkin has references available online as PDFs and it will make your head hurt.

b) Any seal geniuses out there? For the seal that seals onto the pinion flange Nitrile or Polyacrylate? Also, which style (Timkin)? 470 (just like my NP205 output seal), 410 (like the 470 but has a metal cage on front and back, stronger?), or 350 (similar to a 470, but not a double lip and it’s coated in rubber for use in aluminum housings if there is expected to be a lot of thermal expansion. It helps keep the seal in place with differential expansion). What say ye? I’m leaning towards the 410 in Nitrile P/N 415147. Available everywhere including amazon for around $20.

9) I once heard that you need 1” of spline engagement per 100 hp. Anyone want to corroborate this?

a) This can’t be accurate. My NP205 only has about 2”, and as I recall my 545RFE didn’t have much more and the Hemi’s it is behind puts out more than 200 HP. Now now no comments on how crappy dodge trannys are.

10) 1410, 1480, 1550 what size drive lines we looking at people?

a) You can get all 3 in a 4.75” bolt circle, so this is a moot point.

b) Not sure what kind on angularity you can get with each. My reference material isn’t helpful and I haven’t been to a driveline shop to talk with a human yet. Generally bigger gets you more angularity, but it looks like the 4.75” 1550 stuff doesn’t have more angularity, just more strength.

c) For those of you wondering why such big drivelines, when a 1310, 1330, or 1350 are all plenty beefy, well it’s a 5 ton axle give or take, and I want something comparable. The stock U-joints on the stock drive shaft are enormous. Also there are 1350 drive shaft piece that you can get with the 4.75” bolt circle in case you want to go smaller.

11) Does anyone want to help with this?

a) Not a lot of interest. XFORDNAP2 PM’ed me tho. He’s a busy guy, but I’m hoping he can help. So I got that going for me.

Last edited by Bluemoose1; 12-16-2015 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 02-15-2016, 07:01 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Talked to Xfordnap2 on the tele a few weeks ago. He was pretty helpful. Seemed like he was looking to sell conversions down the road, and he had sold some of his original run, but the market is pretty much non existent, so it doesn't seem like he's really pushing things. He confirmed a few things for me. But the biggest hang up is broaching the damn internal splines. He had a friend EDM his prototype, but then had a broach made fo his first run, but that guy went out of business, so no joy there. Looking into EDM it looks like the way to go if you don't care about cost, and who doesn't care about cost? So no EDM drive flanges here.

I've been talking with Mike at Trail Tech Fabrication (he's on the board here, but doesn't really have a website, and he's local.) about just having a flange made to weld the internal splines from the stock drive shaft. It is the economical way to go, and many here have done it that way. Waiting to hear back from him. This will likely be the route I go unless...

There has got to be ready made broaches out there. Probably in Germany. I mean Mercedes made 1000's of these. Does anyone have any connections in Germany or is currently in Germany and have an interest in talking to a broacher about this? It's a long shot I know.

Anyone know who Mercedes used to make this part of the driveshaft originally? Are they still in business? Or were they made in house?

Another long shot would be if anyone has actual Mercedes numbers on what the dimensions for the splines are supposed to be with tolerances.

Anyone reading this? It's turning into a blog, The kind no one reads
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Old 02-23-2016, 08:35 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm reading

Just starting to explore mogs but I have machining experience. If volume is low I'd price edm. I can't imagine Mercedes invented a spline for this application. Did you check machinery handbook?
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:51 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I'm reading

Just starting to explore mogs but I have machining experience. If volume is low I'd price edm. I can't imagine Mercedes invented a spline for this application. Did you check machinery handbook?
What is this Machinist Handbook of which you speak? I'm not a machinist, I just know a bunch. At this point I'm focusing mainly on having a 2 piece flange made, unless I find a ready made broach. I have a couple feelers out in Germany to look for a broach, but no luck so far.

Also I was told EDM is as expensive as CNC machine time aka $150 hr. I have a friend with a CNC shop and he only charges me $50. So I'm going to go with EDM will still run the cost up too much. Do you feel it's likely to be cheaper? With EDM I could even do a blind splined hole. That would be neat.
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Old 02-24-2016, 06:55 AM   #25 (permalink)
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What is this Machinist Handbook of which you speak? I'm not a machinist, I just know a bunch. At this point I'm focusing mainly on having a 2 piece flange made, unless I find a ready made broach. I have a couple feelers out in Germany to look for a broach, but no luck so far.

Also I was told EDM is as expensive as CNC machine time aka $150 hr. I have a friend with a CNC shop and he only charges me $50. So I'm going to go with EDM will still run the cost up too much. Do you feel it's likely to be cheaper? With EDM I could even do a blind splined hole. That would be neat.
Machinery's Handbook:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/083...2JB4DVWVXYD084

If it was a standard spline and you could figure out which, searching for a broach would be that much easier. You could also look into slotting or shaping them. I've never worked with edm but I'm curious so if you give me some dimensions I'd look in to it.
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