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Old 07-13-2015, 12:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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School me: Mountain Bikes

Been trying to figure out something to do after work and to occupy my hands so I'm looking for some guidance.

Most of my hobbies I'm unable to do on weekdays due to my work schedule so I figured a bike could be built in an apartment and get me into exercising a bit more.

What brands are recommended? Trek and Yeti seem to stand out the most from my research, with Niner and Giant right behind them.

I'd prefer a full suspension bike.

I'd like to keep the frame set below $1k, preferably below $700-$800.

I'm ok with a last year model, used, etc as long as it's in good condition. Any good online stores/forums to look at?

Tire size, not a huge fan of the 29" (too bling looking for me) so thinking 26-27.5".
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Old 07-13-2015, 01:18 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Generally it always cheaper to buy a complete bike versus a frame only unless you buy used parts. All the major brands (trek, specialized giant, Santa Cruz, yeti) work fine. They all have different geometry so you should ride some to make sure it's what you want. Couple questions below to help.

How much total do you want to spend including parts?

How much travel?

New or used?

State or the art technology?


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Old 07-13-2015, 01:37 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Generally it always cheaper to buy a complete bike versus a frame only unless you buy used parts. All the major brands (trek, specialized giant, Santa Cruz, yeti) work fine. They all have different geometry so you should ride some to make sure it's what you want. Couple questions below to help.

How much total do you want to spend including parts? Nothing overboard, probably $2k but my plan is for an on-going project so if it's spread out over a few months, a bit more is ok

How much travel? Haven't even gotten that far in my research. I come from a motocross background, so at some point i'll plan on using the bike as intended

New or used? Doesn't matter, just don't want to buy someones junk

State or the art technology? Doesn't matter, but I don't want to buy a 15 year old frame that's worn out

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Old 07-13-2015, 05:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Your budget will buy a FS bike so shitty you won't enjoy it. It will either be so old that modern parts won't fit on it, the geometry will suck, components will suck. Or it'll be a wal mart type bike with shit components.



For $700 to $800 I would look for a used hard tail. Unless you're taking big drops, you don't need FS.

You live in Louisiana. I'd just build a rigid single speed to start out with. I twould keep the cost down. You can always upgrade to a suspension fork. Gulf coast roots can be killer and way harsh then some of the rocky trails out west. When you decide you want a fancy full travel bike, you'll be a machine and you'll be in the sport to know what you like or don't like. I have about $800 in my rigid SS 29er and it's super fun. I can post my full build (lots of stuff used or on Craigslist, but frame was $200 new from On One).

Don't buy a yeti they're piles of shit. That bike company is just a marketing scheme. They try to reinvent the wheel all the time and then charge a premium for stupid shit thus people think they're awesome. Lots of Niners have frame issues. Some of the newer bikes have proprietary shit I'm not a fan of. Stick to the basics: 104bcd crank, 100/135mm hubs, threaded bottom brackets, try to find a frame that will take a tapered fork, 29/26/27.5 whatever you like.

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Old 07-13-2015, 07:03 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Your budget will buy a FS bike so shitty you won't enjoy it. It will either be so old that modern parts won't fit on it, the geometry will suck, components will suck. Or it'll be a wal mart type bike with shit components.


For $700 to $800 I would look for a used hard tail. Unless you're taking big drops, you don't need FS.

You live in Louisiana. I'd just build a rigid single speed to start out with. I twould keep the cost down. You can always upgrade to a suspension fork. Gulf coast roots can be killer and way harsh then some of the rocky trails out west. When you decide you want a fancy full travel bike, you'll be a machine and you'll be in the sport to know what you like or don't like. I have about $800 in my rigid SS 29er and it's super fun. I can post my full build (lots of stuff used or on Craigslist, but frame was $200 new from On One).

Don't buy a yeti they're piles of shit. That bike company is just a marketing scheme. They try to reinvent the wheel all the time and then charge a premium for stupid shit thus people think they're awesome. Lots of Niners have frame issues. Some of the newer bikes have proprietary shit I'm not a fan of. Stick to the basics: 104bcd crank, 100/135mm hubs, threaded bottom brackets, try to find a frame that will take a tapered fork, 29/26/27.5 whatever you like.
If 2K's not reasonable, how much would you think would get a nice bike? I definitely don't need over the top or want to go crazy, but I don't like owning crap either.

I'm only in LA for 12 months and I'll be moving outta here, I'd prefer to have a bike I can use any where.

What brands would you recommend sticking with? I've been trying to find previous year framesets, since they seem to be at a pretty significant price cut, not really finding too much for Trek. Craigslist doesn't seem to have much, and none of the MB forums i've found have had much activity in classifieds.
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Old 07-13-2015, 07:55 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Your budget will buy a FS bike so shitty you won't enjoy it. It will either be so old that modern parts won't fit on it, the geometry will suck, components will suck. Or it'll be a wal mart type bike with shit components.



For $700 to $800 I would look for a used hard tail. Unless you're taking big drops, you don't need FS.

You live in Louisiana. I'd just build a rigid single speed to start out with. I twould keep the cost down. You can always upgrade to a suspension fork. Gulf coast roots can be killer and way harsh then some of the rocky trails out west. When you decide you want a fancy full travel bike, you'll be a machine and you'll be in the sport to know what you like or don't like. I have about $800 in my rigid SS 29er and it's super fun. I can post my full build (lots of stuff used or on Craigslist, but frame was $200 new from On One).

Don't buy a yeti they're piles of shit. That bike company is just a marketing scheme. They try to reinvent the wheel all the time and then charge a premium for stupid shit thus people think they're awesome. Lots of Niners have frame issues. Some of the newer bikes have proprietary shit I'm not a fan of. Stick to the basics: 104bcd crank, 100/135mm hubs, threaded bottom brackets, try to find a frame that will take a tapered fork, 29/26/27.5 whatever you like.

Seriously dude, shut the fuck up with this nonsense. First off, yeti makes nice bike with a good suspension design. Second. For $2k you can get a nice used bike. For $800 you can get a two year old frame that has current technology. I'll be selling my Bronson at the end of the season for $3k and it was a $10k build new at the beginning of the season and its less than a year old.
Third, you'd want a 12x142 rear end. Makes a big difference and it's generally the standard now. Give me a break with that 135 bullshit.

OP, if you don't have super gnarly terrain, look into something in the 120-130 travel range and you'll be happy. If a FS has a good linkage design and the suspension is set up correctly you'll be faster than on a hard tail or rigid bike. Not to mention a lot less beat up after a ride.

You want to be a hipster? Get a rigid single speed.



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Old 07-13-2015, 07:57 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Oh, and look for the used bikes at the end of the season. Most people sell to build something new for the next year.

And go 27.5.


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Old 07-13-2015, 08:19 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Seems like you're better off just buying new out here in CO. Seems like used shit goes for just a couple hundred bucks less than you could buy the same or similar new.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Midwestzj View Post
Seriously dude, shut the fuck up with this nonsense. First off, yeti makes nice bike with a good suspension design. Second. For $2k you can get a nice used bike. For $800 you can get a two year old frame that has current technology. I'll be selling my Bronson at the end of the season for $3k and it was a $10k build new at the beginning of the season and its less than a year old.
Third, you'd want a 12x142 rear end. Makes a big difference and it's generally the standard now. Give me a break with that 135 bullshit.

OP, if you don't have super gnarly terrain, look into something in the 120-130 travel range and you'll be happy. If a FS has a good linkage design and the suspension is set up correctly you'll be faster than on a hard tail or rigid bike. Not to mention a lot less beat up after a ride.

You want to be a hipster? Get a rigid single speed.



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Seriously dude. Shut the fuck up with this nonsense. I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome you think you are.

Ah PBB and the "Your advice is wrong!"


I can't think of anything else to call something, so I will call this forum hipster. Bronsons are hipsters.12x142 hubs are for hipsters. 135 are for hipster. Carbon is for hipsters. Steels is for hipsters. 120-130 travel bikes are for hipsters. 27.5 is soo hipster. Someone who thinks their bike is better than someone else's is hipster. 26, 27.5, 700, 29, 650B whoever thinks that size is good is hipsters. Hipsters try to act like they know more about bikes than other people on the internet. Hipsters think it's cooler to build a bike over buying one. Hipsters think that buying a bike is cooler than building one. People who ride too fast are hipsters, they frustrate other hipsters who aren't as fast. Hipsters argue on the internet with people about bikes. Hipsters try to act smug and denounce other people's opinion on what is fun to ride. Hipsters give too many fucks.

If I wanted to read shit like this I'd spend time on mtbr slapping dicks instead of riding.

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Old 07-13-2015, 09:32 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Seriously dude. Shut the fuck up with this nonsense. I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome you think you are.

Ah PBB and the "Your advice is wrong!"


I can't think of anything else to call something, so I will call this forum hipster. Bronsons are hipsters.12x142 hubs are for hipsters. 135 are for hipster. Carbon is for hipsters. Steels is for hipsters. 120-130 travel bikes are for hipsters. 27.5 is soo hipster. Someone who thinks their bike is better than someone else's is hipster. 26, 27.5, 700, 29, 650B whoever thinks that size is good is hipsters. Hipsters try to act like they know more about bikes than other people on the internet. Hipsters think it's cooler to build a bike over buying one. Hipsters think that buying a bike is cooler than building one. People who ride too fast are hipsters, they frustrate other hipsters who aren't as fast. Hipsters argue on the internet with people about bikes. Hipsters try to act smug and denounce other people's opinion on what is fun to ride. Hipsters give too many fucks.

If I wanted to read shit like this I'd spend time on mtbr slapping dicks instead of riding.
Who pee'd in your Cheerios?

i can't afford a new bike and skinny jeans so can we please get back on topic.
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Old 07-13-2015, 09:40 PM   #11 (permalink)
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If 2K's not reasonable, how much would you think would get a nice bike? I definitely don't need over the top or want to go crazy, but I don't like owning crap either.

I'm only in LA for 12 months and I'll be moving outta here, I'd prefer to have a bike I can use any where.

What brands would you recommend sticking with? I've been trying to find previous year framesets, since they seem to be at a pretty significant price cut, not really finding too much for Trek. Craigslist doesn't seem to have much, and none of the MB forums i've found have had much activity in classifieds.
It kind of depends on where you like. Like mentioned, some places like CO used is REALLY expensive. Not really sure why because there's so many bikes here. Maybe it's because so many people are upgrading to high dollar bikes and want tons of money for their old ones. I see craigslist all the time people wanting 15 year old shit for $1500. These are asking prices, I have no idea if people actually sell shit at that price.

Sometimes, with newer stuff, it's cheaper to buy new than build with new parts. The bike companies get massive discounts by buying huge amounts of stuff for their production runs.

Your first post was kinda off because you just gave a budget for the frame. Not total budget. Some people get too into frames and not into components. For example on my FS, I think I have about as much money in my wheelset than my frame. My fork was more than my frame.

If you build vs buy, when looking for a frame, try to find something that can take modern components. That way you can buy/find newer components and swap them into a newer frame or nicer frame. So you'd want tapered headset capacity (the newer fork technology is kinda fading out straight taper and 26"). 27.5 is cool, but there's not as much used stuff out there as 29 or even 26. 26 is still a good platform but since it's "not cool" anymore some of the newer forks aren't coming out in 26. But on the good side you can find good 26 frames, wheels, etc. for cheap.

If you have a slim budget, I'd just find a 26". People are giving that shit away. 27.5 is barely bigger. It's not exactly in between 26/29. It's closer to 26. But with a stupid huge premium.

There's a million different ways to go. It's like getting on PBB and asking what 4x4 to build, buy, whatever. Part of it is your ability/skillset, part of it is how much money you want to spend, part of it is your terrain, reliability vs weight vs performance vs. maintenance, etc.

Or you could spend $10,000 on a 27.5" Bronson so you can talk about it on the internet. That's what all the hipsters do.

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Old 07-14-2015, 07:42 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Anyone bought from here?
http://www.mtbsale.com/frames.html

Prices seem extremely good on a couple of the frames.

Edit: and apparently complete bikes as well.

Edit #2: Googled the website. Sketchy reviews.

Last edited by 75' Forty; 07-14-2015 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 07-14-2015, 08:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Anyone bought from here?
MTB FRAMES

Prices seem extremely good on a couple of the frames.

Edit: and apparently complete bikes as well.
PricePoint also usually has decent frames cheap. That's where I got my last frame. Was a few years old but like 60% off. Chain Reaction Cycles is another place that sells NOS stuff cheap.

pinkbike classifieds is also a good place to find used stuff. There's a frame section. I've never had a problem buying or selling used stuff that site. One could call it the PBB of mountain bikes. But it is definitely full of 16 year old flatbillers.


Niner Rip 9 Rockshox Revelation RCT Set

That's not bad at all. For what all you get for $800. I can't remember exactly what Niner frames had cracking issues. Many of the frame cracks I've seen on bikes regardless of bikes usually have to do with the rear shock giving out and then linkage all slamming the tubes. Thi scould either be from not running enough air, poor maintenance, etc. Not always the frame's fault. That's one good thing about buying a used Turner frame. Turner will give $600 towards a new frame if your frame is destroyed no questions asked. So if you buy an old Turner frame it's kind of like a $600 deductible insurance. Problem is new Turner frames are $2k easy.

20mm front axle is kinda old but pretty much all the hubs can be converted by changing the end caps.

There's a Jet with fork for almost the same price, but I'd go with the Rip.

If you like 27.5 and hate 29 three's an older 26" Ibis Mojo frame. Personally I first found 29ers weird and took me a while to get used to the handling. But once I did, I liked it and now my fiance rides my 26" FS bike.

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Old 07-14-2015, 08:49 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Just checked with a buddy in the industry who is a manager at a LOB. That's one of the Niner frame that likes to crack.

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Old 07-14-2015, 01:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Look. I am definitely not trying to be better than anyone else. I am trying to give real world advise that works for the majority of people.

Rigid bikes are not good for 98% of the people out there. Rigid single speed is not good for 99% of the people out there if it's your only bike.

I would absolutely agree to get a bike with a taper head tube if you want to upgrade anything in the next few years. Straight steerers are getting phased out.

26" is again getting phased out and if you want to upgrade in a few years don't get 26 because you'll have very little options

And I didn't spend 10k on my bike, that's the retail price for the build.


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Old 07-14-2015, 01:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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OP,
Look at pinkbike for some used bikes/frames. You can usually get them for lower than list price.

What size are you? Either height or frame size. I usually know a couple of people selling something nice.


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Old 07-14-2015, 01:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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6' 1"

I'll keep looking PinkBike to see what I can find.
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:40 PM   #18 (permalink)
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6' 1"

I'll keep looking PinkBike to see what I can find.
You're definately a large. Sometimes people that height run an XL. Depends on your arm/leg/torso length. I'm 6'1" and I ride a large, but some of my buddies the same height ride an XL. I prefer a smaller frame, some of my friends prefer a larger frame.



2015 Surly Instigator 2.0 For Sale

26+

Get cheap 26" wheels and run 26x3.0 tires with a 27.5 fork.

Another one is Titus El Guapo. They're stupid cheap from Planet X. They sell complete bikes cheaper than I can build one.

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRTITEL...arch-rt3-shock

http://www.planetx.co.uk/c/q/bikes/mountain-bikes

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/ZXCODEI...deine-frameset

http://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBTIRSS...-mountain-bike

OnOne/PlanetX is direct to consumer, so there's no dealer network which makes them cheaper.

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Old 07-14-2015, 01:47 PM   #19 (permalink)
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While I share your frustration with the apparent demise of the 26" wheel, I can't say enough good things about my Yeti, or the 12x142 rear axle.

I have an Sb66c for more technical/ aggressive riding, and my old Schwinn homegrown hardtail for railtrail riding at lunch.

I have a few inexpensive complete bikes for sale too... PM me.
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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While I share your frustration with the apparent demise of the 26" wheel,
26" bead seat diameter is 22.01".

27.5" bead seat diameter is 22.99"

29er bead seat diameter is 24.49"

27.5, in my opinion, is just the same thing as 26" in a slightly different package. It's not dead in the middle between 26 and 29 like many think. It wasn't a total game changer and different beast like when 29 started becoming popular. It's damn near a 26". Everyone I know who rides 27.5 carries a 26" tube. That's how close they are. 29ers came out, and all the sudden 26" wasn't cool anymore. Bike companies couldn't sell 26" anymore. Everyone just shows up to the bike shop and want a 29er. But some people didn't like 29er. Some people are too short for a 29er to make sense (higher BB/COG). 29er wheels are usually weaker. So it's my belief this wheel was basically invented to get people to buy 26" all over again, but think they're buying something else. It's the hot new thing, people will buy it. Why did the industry take a 650B (650mm = 25.59") wheel and come up with 27.5? It makes no sense. Oh wait it does make sense. They called it 27.5" because that's (26+29)/2. Some people think they're simply buying "the middle". At the same time, I think one reason it came from the industry is because the designers were having a hard time making 29" work for big travel bikes (why we're now seeing all types of fucked up hubs, cranks, BB shells, etc). Compromise in the design was forced. That's also why 29ers really became popular with hard tails first. Designers are JUST NOW figuring out how to make FS 29ers not so fucked up. Also gain inches means 29er is harder to turn. i.e. a 32t chain ring in the front of a 26 is like a 30t in the front of a 29. People saw the benefit of a larger wheel. Makes some stuff easier. When I used to ride my 26" with my friends all on 29s I had to huck off stuff they could just roll off. So, the designers took the old French touring wheel and ran with it. Consumers have accepted it.

All my friends who hated 29 but liked 26 are now buying 27.5 because (outside of a few niche companies) that's what's out there. It's also not "cool" to buy a 26, but a 27.5 is "cool". I see it all the time at the trails "Oh man, you got one of them 27.5. Nice!". So for some people it's an excuse to get a new bike. There's plenty of people who will buy a brand new bike every year. N+1.

I agree that 26" is basically dead, but not from a rational standpoint. From a consumer standpoint. If the option is 29 vs a smaller wheel size, people are going to want the 'new' 27.5 instead of a 26. 27.5 isn't a 'third tier' it's the new second tier.

At the same time, with the advancement in the bike industry I don't think the new 27.5" bikes can really be compared to most 26" bikes because there aren't many currently being designed. So are these new fancy 27.5" bikes really better strictly because of the wheelsize or because of the design of the entire bike?

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Old 07-14-2015, 03:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Rigid single speed is not good for 99% of the people out there if it's your only bike.
Quote:
Riding a fully rigid bike forced me to learn how to ride a mountain bike properly. Picking clean lines and not allowing suspension to mask my errors were invaluable in building skill, and quickly. A couple years later I finally got a Manitou 2, which not only allowed me to take clean, safe lines faster, but also opened up doors for new lines that I could never before ride.

I have been asked numerous times by friends who are new to mountain biking what kind of bike they should get or what kind of bike would be right for their kid. My response is always the same – fully rigid. They look at me as if I have a gaping hole in the side of my head. Why in tarnation would they buy a fully rigid bike when there’s a slew of awesome 150mm travel full-suspension trail bikes that soak up bumps and make riding a pleasure?

Because those bikes won’t make you a better rider, they’ll only mask your numerous beginner shortcomings.

Who the hell wants to suffer the beatings that I took as a newcomer to the sport more than 20 years ago? Well, for one, if you’re serious about becoming a good rider who has exceptional technical skill, you’ll learn on a fully rigid bike. Not only will you understand how to read the trail and pick smart, smooth lines, but also as your skill builds and you eventually step up to front suspension or even full suspension, your likelihood of crashing will be significantly lower. The combination of good riding habits, clean lines, cornering skill and suspension will take your riding expertise to new levels.

Besides, fully rigid bikes these days are light years more stable, confident, comfortable and forgiving than the bone-jarring 26-inch rigid bikes of 20 years ago. For the past month I’ve been riding a Vassago VerHauen, a fully rigid, steel 29er singlespeed outfitted with a carbon seatpost, handlebars and Whisky Parts Co. fork along with big, fat tubeless tires. When it comes to mountain bikes, it doesn’t get any more stripped down and visceral than a fully rigid singlespeed. It’s the perfect skill-building tool.

With the front Maxxis 2.35-inch tire aired down to 20 psi, the VerHauen is incredibly smooth and comfortable, even on rocky descents. The combination of a steel frame with carbon components is like mixing chocolate and peanut butter in a bowl; the result is magical. Because of its plush and comfortable ride – especially for a fully rigid bike – the Vassago has quickly become my go-to whip for all but the rockiest of rides. The Vassago rewards me for taking smooth, clean lines and only slightly wraps me on the wrist when I take a dumbass line, whereas the Diamond Back would have sent me headlong into a ditch.

Sure, I can’t bomb downhill quite as fast and carelessly as I would like, but I can still keep up with and occasionally outrun many of my friends on full suspension bikes because the Vassago forces me to ride clean, smart and smooth. The greatest part about riding a fully rigid bike is when you park it and get on a full suspension rig. You feel like a cheetah unchained, but only if you’ve learned to ride a fully rigid bike first.

So whatever you want to call it – All-Mountain, Freeride or the new-fangled Enduro™ moniker – if you’re new to mountain biking and you bought a full-suspension rig, you bought too much bike too soon, boss. It’s like learning to drive a Formula One racecar before learning to drive a go-kart.

But there’s no problem money can’t fix. Just convince your significant other that in order to be a safer, better rider who will crash and injure yourself less, you need to go and pick up a fully rigid mountain bike.

The good news is that fully rigid mountain bikes like the Vassago cost a fraction of that full-sus wünderbike you just drained your bank account with. Besides, a rigid mountain bike is far cheaper than a visit to the ER after running out of talent trying to ride something well beyond your pay grade.
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Old 07-14-2015, 04:23 PM   #22 (permalink)
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There is so much nonsense in here, it's ridiculous.

My recommendation. First, go straight to 29.

Next buy used.

Try your hardest to buy something light weight, with the best components possible. Nothing is worse than clunky Walmart tear bike parts. You'll likely want to spend at least $1500-$2500 to get a bike that is actually fun to ride.

Brand isn't a huge deal. Some are better that others. For instance KHS is known for building heavy bikes. Trek makes some well priced bikes in comparison to Niner. Look for deals though. Your local Facebook mountain bike group or bicycle swap shop is where I'd start my hunt.

Make sure you know what size frame you're looking for. Then figure out what kind of riding you'll be doing. A 150 mm full suspension bike is pretty boring and hard to ride up huge hills and flat paths. Same way my Specialized Epic full suspension is a terrible bike for narly down hill riding. It's a damn good climber and corners with the best of them though. Learn what frame geometry differences do what.

Be ready to buy a bike, learn on it and buy another one after you know what you want after a few months.
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:22 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I would look at Airborne bikes. Seems to be the way to get you on a good bike without spending an assload of cash.
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by despain85 View Post
I would look at Airborne bikes. Seems to be the way to get you on a good bike without spending an assload of cash.
They do seem to pack some decent parts on those bikes for the price. I'm just curious how heavy the frames are. They don't list anything about weight anywhere. I also don't see a listing of what type of alloy they're using.

Went ahead and did a bit of research on the hobgoblin. 31lbs! Ouch.

Airborne Hobgoblin FS 29"er: Final Review

personally, I would pass. A heavy bike for a new rider can be extremely frustrating when starting out. I would venture to buy a full ridged bike at 22 lbs over a fill suspension bike at 31lbs for the same money.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Action Fab View Post

My recommendation. First, go straight to 29.


A 150 mm full suspension bike is pretty boring and hard to ride up huge hills and flat paths. s.

Personally, I hated my 29er. To big on tight trails.

150mm is not hard to ride up hills if it has a good suspension design.


I will agree they are boring on paths. That's where a rigid 29er comes into play....

Sorry OP. I'm not going to try and give advise on this anymore and sorry for the turn this thread has taken. I tried to give sound advise being that I work with everyday riders, professional athletes and guys that climb 10k feet in a day. I've had my choice of damn near any bike for free and I told you what I'd go with. It's not worth it to read this madness anymore.


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