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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-09-2014 12:53 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by OverThrottle View Post
You are about as misinformed as they come.




Would you prefer he just spouts off incorrect facts and statements like redbeard? It's pretty telling when people get upset that the people actually providing links and facts to back up their statements get harassed for doing so. If he hadn't it would be "Do you have any links to back that up?! No of course not!"


Good lord guys. You have a Senior CDC scientist admitting that they fraudulently omitted data and manipulated the results of a major study that HE co-authored. And yet that still isn't enough for you to question you beliefs?!

Maybe the CDC Senior scientist must just be one of those "handful of loony anti-vaccers" as well.
i too find it interesting.
i learned long ago that Pbb wants links, etc to back up statements and/or opinions. Just look at my history of posting when it comes to medical/health issues and i have always done what i will continue to do.

i also find it funny that when DeadPirate Redbeard posts links, he does not even read them
His contention that unvaccinated kids cause vaccinated kids to get the diseases is still not been given any substance. His links did nothing to even address it.

Anyways, i know when i get into these there will be a vocal minority that 'attack' but i also think there are many browsing that are being informed and having some food for thought perhaps.
Good enough for me.

PS Haole, i will not verbally spar over tiny cherry picking you will undoubtedly do. It is what you do best. Take 10 paragraphs, pick up on one questionable sentence and make that the argument to state an article is ALL wrong.
i am not going cofo11 with you. Sorry.
09-09-2014 12:46 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haole View Post
I would read what you posted, but it's so voluminous that I don't care. Seriously. It's like playing whack-a-mole with one of these:

Not good enough Haole, i perhaps have given you too much credit regarding your intellectual capabilities.
i think your constant engaging in petty verbal diarrhea and redundant sparring with cofo11, Ironpig 70 and the 'others' has prevented you from being a productive contributor in discussions.
09-09-2014 12:40 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haole View Post
I've read some of your stuff and have proven it wrong. And that it's not "your opinion", yet very one sided, pretty much tells us what your opinion is. It's about like piggy sudden claiming that he's not really a TSA fan.
Interesting that you remember one thread and a discussion where some info was clarified, other info was accepted and some info was disputed. The key word is discussion.
If you look at just Polio and HPV from what i have posted, even you Haole would come to a conclusion that Gardisil is bunk and Polio was never eradicated and the vaccine was certainly not successful.
As for one sided, well duh. i guarantee that for every regurgitated `must vaccinate article out there, there are 100 articles picking apart the `party line``using CDC and NHIS and WHO as the resources to dispute the claims.

And lets not lose the fact that CDC`s safety officer is quoted stating there MIGHT be an association between vaccines and Autism. NEVER has CDC ever admitted to any possibility until now.

i also `bet`that as time goes on, more and more info will come to light that leaves even the most narrow minded, uninformed advocate of vaccines scratching their head at .gov duping them again.
09-09-2014 12:33 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haole View Post
What vitamins and herbs are mass produced by big pharma that weren't mass produced before? When did big pharma suddenly start this mass production?
Big Pharma got into the game when the FDA and Big Pharma tried unsuccessfully to shut down supplements and vitamins.
In 1994, The Dietary Supplement and Health Education Act exempted supplements from needing federal FDA approval, or proof of safety and effectiveness before they go on sale.

Big Pharma is still in the news making noise that they want tighter control of supplements. Do you know why? Because they have the money to get it to market under the controls they are lobbying for. It would literally wipe out thousands of small businesses that could never do what Big Phrama can do.

It was after 1994, that you started seeing first vitamins and then supplements on the market under other names that Big Pharma owned.
Every year, we see more and more products at grocery and drug store chains that are owned by Big Phrama.
09-09-2014 12:25 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haole View Post
What sums it all up for me is that you cut and paste more than paragon.
as i have said before when it comes to offering opinions regarding health, it sometimes can be better enhanced with actual articles, papers, etc to defend one's opinion.
i have done it always with medical and health issues and i will continue to do it.
The difference is that i offer some observations and then i cut/paste.

If you provide a link, most will not open the link. If you copy/paste, make the article more easily readable then there will be more that read it.

or

i could do what you do often, google stuff and then use that info by rewriting it in your own words making it appear as though you are smarter than you think you are
09-09-2014 10:53 AM
OverThrottle
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
Yes, I've read the same papers over and over as I have family that posts this shit on Facebook time and time again anytime anyone brings up vaccines... It's the same mumbo jumbo from the same group of people. Meanwhile 99.999% of medical professionals all agree that they're wrong. But that's just "Big Pharma" buying off ALL of them all over the world of course.

Wrong

And yet every other 1000 studies to your 1 say you are wrong, but since those don't meet your confirmation bias you just keep clutching to the same studies and copy/pasting them time and time again like a hollywood name dropper.

Wrong


Actually it does, as a matter of fact, every single medical researcher outside of the handful in the anti-vac movement agree that it is SPECIFICALLY due to the Polio Vaccine that we have practically eradicated it. But once again that doesn't fit in with your confirmation bias so you ignore them all.

Wrong


First of all you obviously didn't read the paper if you missed the ENTIRE point being that HPV causes multiple CANCERS which can be avoided by the HPV vaccine... but good job reading!

Wrong

Not very well, the vaccinated host's immune system has been prepared to fight it's targeted disease, while trace amounts of the virus may be identifiable they do not have the ability to replicate as they can in an unvaccinated host. But I'm sure you're laymen explanation is the perfect counter argument to herd immunity that will stop all science from accepting it.

Wrong

You are about as misinformed as they come.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haole View Post
I would read what you posted, but it's so voluminous that I don't care. Seriously. It's like playing whack-a-mole with one of these:

Would you prefer he just spouts off incorrect facts and statements like redbeard? It's pretty telling when people get upset that the people actually providing links and facts to back up their statements get harassed for doing so. If he hadn't it would be "Do you have any links to back that up?! No of course not!"


Good lord guys. You have a Senior CDC scientist admitting that they fraudulently omitted data and manipulated the results of a major study that HE co-authored. And yet that still isn't enough for you to question you beliefs?!

Maybe the CDC Senior scientist must just be one of those "handful of loony anti-vaccers" as well.
09-08-2014 11:43 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
But, if you read the info being posted, its definitely a pause for thought regarding all the extra vaccines and extra dosages being pushed today.
I would read what you posted, but it's so voluminous that I don't care. Seriously. It's like playing whack-a-mole with one of these:

09-08-2014 11:37 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
my opinion?
maybe read the stuff i post and see very little is my opinion but resourced stuff.
I've read some of your stuff and have proven it wrong. And that it's not "your opinion", yet very one sided, pretty much tells us what your opinion is. It's about like piggy sudden claiming that he's not really a TSA fan.
09-08-2014 11:33 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by 85SR5 View Post
"1 in 100k gets sick so oh well"
All medicine is performed with that in mind. No one reacts the same to the same thing.
09-08-2014 11:29 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
i do not personally buy or recommend anything but easily bought vitamins and herbs that ironically are now being mass produced by Big Pharma.
What vitamins and herbs are mass produced by big pharma that weren't mass produced before? When did big pharma suddenly start this mass production?
09-08-2014 11:22 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
This kind of sums it up for me....
What sums it all up for me is that you cut and paste more than paragon.
09-08-2014 11:17 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
What i find interesting is that i have yet to see much evidence and literature other than decades old jargon to support vaccines from pro vaccine movements.
Ironically, it is the anti vaccine movement that provides peer reviewed article after article after article to question the myths perpetuated by ignorant and uninformed people providing the vaccines.

Furthermore, its the shotgun approach of current vaccine schedules that should be questioned by every person that wonders why todays children receive 2-3 times more vaccines and dosages then kids of yesteryear.
A staggered vaccine schedule would be a start for parents concerned about a non developed immune system being subjected to the shotgun vaccine approach today.
Peer reviews? Isn't that about like asking your fellow KKK member what they think of the coloured folk?
09-08-2014 11:16 PM
Haole
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
RX companies make a TON more money on medicines you take your whole life, a vaccination is a one time fee that prevents you from taking medication your whole life... Seems counter-intuitive of those evil scamming companies.
Generally, that which is cured by a vaccination, isn't affected by prescription drugs.
09-08-2014 10:04 PM
NERVEman Be very interesting to see how this plays out...

Merck Whistleblower Suit A Boon to Vaccine Foes Even As It Stresses Importance of Vaccines

Anyone who falls on either side of the debate about vaccines’ alleged potential to cause harm is sure to have heard the big news this week — the unsealing of a whistleblower suit against Merck, filed back in 2010 by two former employees accusing the drugmaker of overstating the effectiveness of its mumps, measles, and rubella vaccine.

The scientists claim Merck defrauded the U.S. government by causing it to purchase an estimated four million doses of mislabeled and misbranded MMR vaccine per year for at least a decade, and helped ignite two recent mumps outbreaks that the allegedly ineffective vaccine was intended to prevent in the first place.

“As the single largest purchaser of childhood vaccines (accounting for more than 50 percent of all vaccine purchasers), the United States is by far the largest financial victim of Merck’s fraud. But the ultimate victims here are the millions of children who every year are being injected with a mumps vaccine that is not providing them with an adequate level of protection against mumps. And while this is a disease the CDC targeted to eradicate by now, the failure in Merck’s vaccine has allowed this disease to linger with significant outbreaks continuing to occur,” the suit alleges.

It refers to a 2006 mumps outbreak in the Midwest, in which 6,500 cases were reported among a highly vaccinated population, and another in 2009, in which 5,000 cases were confirmed. By comparison, the annual average of mumps cases in the U.S. in the two decades preceding the 2006 outbreak was 265; before the introduction of the single-shot Mumpsvax vaccine in 1967, there were approximately 200,000 cases of the disease, according to the 55-page document.

If the accusations are true — thus far Merck has denied wrongdoing — the case would lend credence to the perception held by many that pharmaceutical companies are more interested in pursuing profits and preserving their market share than in protecting consumers’ health.

Specifically, the suit claims Merck manipulated the results of clinical trials beginning in the late 1990s so as to be able to report that the combined mumps vaccine, known as MMR-II (a revised version of the 1971 MMR shot containing a different strain of the rubella virus), is 95 percent effective, in an effort to maintain its exclusive license to manufacture it. This percentage is the benchmark used by the FDA to grant Merck approval to sell its original mumps vaccine in 1967. It is believed by vaccine authorities to guarantee herd immunity for people who have skipped on the shots.

However, instead of reformulating the vaccine whose declining efficacy Merck itself has acknowledged, the company reportedly launched a complicated scheme to adjust its testing technique so that it would yield the desired potency results. The virologists say they witnessed firsthand the fraud and were asked to directly participate in the dishonest testing, which was dubbed “Protocol 007″ and is outlined in great detail in the complaint.

While the Justice Department has refused to rule on the case after conducting its own two-year investigation, the allegations are crucial for a couple of reasons.

Without doubt, if true, they offer an extremely damaging view into the inner process of a company accused of misleading both regulators and consumers about a vital medical product. This is exactly the kind of profit-centered, patient-careless attitude many consumer advocates, vaccine opponents, and non-believers of all stripes ascribe to Big Pharma.

Updated on 06/28/2012: In a statement, a spokesman for Merck said the lawsuit is without merit and the company intends to vigorously defend itself in court. He noted the vaccine’s ability to prevent disease remains the same, and reiterated that MMR-II continues to be recommended for routine administration to childen by public health authorities around the world.

“Nothing is more important to Merck than the safety and effectiveness of our vaccines and medicines and the people who use them. It’s important to understand that none of the allegations in the complaint relate to the safety of MMR-II, and we remain confident that MMR-II helps protect against measles, mumps and rubella as described in the labeling for the vaccine,” the spokesman said.


Merck's Motion to Dismiss Denied in Mumps Whistleblower Suits


A federal judge ruled on September 5, 2014, that two suits against pharmaceutical giant Merck have overcome motions to dismiss and will proceed to trial.


The first suit (1), filed in Pennsylvania in April of 2010 but sealed until June of 2012, was brought under the False Claims Act by two Merck virologists, Joan Wlochowski and Stephen Krahling.



The whistleblowers claimed to have witnessed Merck management instructing staff to withhold information about the high failure rate of the mumps portion of the MMR vaccine before selling it to the U.S. government. The manufacturer claimed the mumps vaccine had a 95% efficacy rate, even during epidemic mumps outbreaks of 2006 and 2009 in highly vaccinated populations. This rate was attained by basing efficacy tests on Merck's own vaccine strain of mumps rather than wild mumps.



After considering the option for two years, the United States Department of Justice declined to join the whistleblower suit when it was unsealed on June 21, 2012, but allowed the suit to proceed in the name of the United States.



Merck based its Motion to Dismiss the suit on the claim that misstating the efficacy rate of the mumps vaccine is a matter for the Food & Drug Administration to investigate, not to be litigated in the court system. The judge disagreed and held up every claim of the suit.



In addition, the Department of Justice filed a May 2013 "Statement of Interest" in opposition to Merck's Motion to Dismiss, claiming that the basis of the motion went against the purpose of the False Claims Act.



The second suit (2), a class action filed 4 days after the June 2012 unsealing of the whistleblower suit, claims Merck violated the Sherman Anti-Trust Act by falsifying the mumps vaccine efficacy rate, which prevented other pharmaceutical companies from bringing another mumps vaccine to market.



In the class action suit, brought by a doctor in New York, a second doctor in New Jersey, and Chatom Primary Care of Alabama, plaintiffs allege to represent a class of doctors and practice groups that were forced to pay more for the MMR vaccine due to Merck’s monopoly of sales to the government.



The judge ruled to allow the Sherman Act claim, along with the claims brought under the laws of each plaintiff’s home state, to proceed. He dismissed the class action's claims under the laws of 22 other states which were filed on behalf of members of the class not yet named.
09-08-2014 01:53 PM
SEVENS
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post

Not very well, the vaccinated host's immune system has been prepared to fight it's targeted disease, while trace amounts of the virus may be identifiable they do not have the ability to replicate as they can in an unvaccinated host. But I'm sure you're laymen explanation is the perfect counter argument to herd immunity that will stop all science from accepting it.


Just keep drinking the koolaid...
Still waiting on the "research" to back up that claim. You know something like studies that prove that vaccines prevent disease. Sounds like a great THEORY.
09-08-2014 01:35 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
Goddamn you must suck down the koolaid by the GALLON...



Yes, I've read the same papers over and over as I have family that posts this shit on Facebook time and time again anytime anyone brings up vaccines... It's the same mumbo jumbo from the same group of people. Meanwhile 99.999% of medical professionals all agree that they're wrong. But that's just "Big Pharma" buying off ALL of them all over the world of course.



And yet every other 1000 studies to your 1 say you are wrong, but since those don't meet your confirmation bias you just keep clutching to the same studies and copy/pasting them time and time again like a hollywood name dropper.



Because kids are having sexual contact earlier and earlier. Do I like that? No, but I'd rather a kid get a vaccination BEFORE they get HPV then try and treat something incurable. But I guess we can just live in a pretend world where kids all wait till they're 18 to have sex and wait till then to try and immunize...



Actually it does, as a matter of fact, every single medical researcher outside of the handful in the anti-vac movement agree that it is SPECIFICALLY due to the Polio Vaccine that we have practically eradicated it. But once again that doesn't fit in with your confirmation bias so you ignore them all.



What's laughable is how EVERY OTHER scientist in the world in your view is wrong, and the handful of ones that happen to support your ideals are correct and yet we are the ones who are deluded...



First of all you obviously didn't read the paper if you missed the ENTIRE point being that HPV causes multiple CANCERS which can be avoided by the HPV vaccine... but good job reading!



Not very well, the vaccinated host's immune system has been prepared to fight it's targeted disease, while trace amounts of the virus may be identifiable they do not have the ability to replicate as they can in an unvaccinated host. But I'm sure you're laymen explanation is the perfect counter argument to herd immunity that will stop all science from accepting it.



Thanks to FAILING herd immunity... jesus christ do you even read before you comment?!

Just keep drinking the koolaid...
So, in summary you are not reading anything. Got it.
There is no way you could have read the Polio or Gardasil without coming to the same conclusions that were written, not a frickin chance you could have read that. As a matter of fact, you did not read it.

This is not Facebook and yes, many articles on FB are poorly researched.

All the answers you have submitted above amount to nothing but an opinion trying to come off as a 99% medical world acceptance. No content at all.

And go re read your Time article on HPV, it does not state what you think or want it to state, its basically a fluff article talking about warts which have no health impact other than esthetics.

And read that Herd Immunity piece.
Go ahead and dissect it.

i will continue to read both sides and educate myself but i will not waste anymore time on someone not willing to read some very good resources.
Cheers.
09-08-2014 01:23 PM
DreadPirate Redbeard Goddamn you must suck down the koolaid by the GALLON...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
you just refuse to read anything i post. IF you did, you would see that paper after paper discusses in detail that the unvaccinated are not responsible for vaccinated people getting the disease that they vaccinate against.
disease.
Yes, i understand microbilogy and using text book theory to explain reality. In this case reality does not agree with your textbook knowledge.
Yes, I've read the same papers over and over as I have family that posts this shit on Facebook time and time again anytime anyone brings up vaccines... It's the same mumbo jumbo from the same group of people. Meanwhile 99.999% of medical professionals all agree that they're wrong. But that's just "Big Pharma" buying off ALL of them all over the world of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
Again, reason vaccinated kids get the disease is because the vaccines are ineffective. period.
Measels, whooping cough, flu, etc.
i have copy/pasted enough stuff to even have the most narrow minded person maybe open their eyes to the possibility vaccines are not the greatest thing to mankind.
And yet every other 1000 studies to your 1 say you are wrong, but since those don't meet your confirmation bias you just keep clutching to the same studies and copy/pasting them time and time again like a hollywood name dropper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
Go ahead and comment on why a 9 yr old needs a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease?
Because kids are having sexual contact earlier and earlier. Do I like that? No, but I'd rather a kid get a vaccination BEFORE they get HPV then try and treat something incurable. But I guess we can just live in a pretend world where kids all wait till they're 18 to have sex and wait till then to try and immunize...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
Go ahead and tell me again about the success of Polio vaccines when the factual evidence does not support it.
Actually it does, as a matter of fact, every single medical researcher outside of the handful in the anti-vac movement agree that it is SPECIFICALLY due to the Polio Vaccine that we have practically eradicated it. But once again that doesn't fit in with your confirmation bias so you ignore them all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
PS, if i do not follow up my viewpoint with concrete examples (copy/paste) then i would be just like you, talking from a textbook with no real substance.
PPS. CDC has been very public about the fact non vaccinated kids are NOT responsible for vaccinated kids getting sick. My good god man, think about it. You say vaccines are safe and effective but when one vaccinated kid gets the disease, its the fault of the kid not vaccinated (who does not get the disease).
Its laughable.
What's laughable is how EVERY OTHER scientist in the world in your view is wrong, and the handful of ones that happen to support your ideals are correct and yet we are the ones who are deluded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
Did you even read the link you provided?
i did and warts are well, warts. A very common thing and has zero health impact.
In previous info i posted, i gave you the numbers and percentage of cancer that counts. HPV has not reduced mortality rates.
Go back and educate yourself man.
First of all you obviously didn't read the paper if you missed the ENTIRE point being that HPV causes multiple CANCERS which can be avoided by the HPV vaccine... but good job reading!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEVENS View Post
So Vaccinated people cannot be hosts? Back to the "if your vaccinated then why worry"?
Not very well, the vaccinated host's immune system has been prepared to fight it's targeted disease, while trace amounts of the virus may be identifiable they do not have the ability to replicate as they can in an unvaccinated host. But I'm sure you're laymen explanation is the perfect counter argument to herd immunity that will stop all science from accepting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NERVEman View Post
do you read what you post? You did not with the HPV and this first one, you obviuosly did not because the experiment was showing that UNvaccinated kids had a higher risk to get Pertussis vs their vaccinated counterparts. It has NOTHING to do with vaccinated kids getting the disease because of the unvaccinated.
Here is the conclusion:
Children of parents who refuse pertussis immunizations are at high risk for pertussis infection relative to vaccinated children. Herd immunity does not seem to completely protect unvaccinated children from pertussis.

NOTE: Washington and California numbers would actually make the statement false in regards to Pertussis as it was the vaccinated kids that got sick at about 80%+ vs unvaccinated
Thanks to FAILING herd immunity... jesus christ do you even read before you comment?!

Just keep drinking the koolaid...
09-08-2014 01:21 PM
NERVEman Go ahead DreadBeard Pirate, read this and tell me how it does not make sense of this herd immunity myth. Dissect it.


Is Herd Immunity Real?

In the original description of herd immunity, the protection to the population at large occurred only if people contracted the infections naturally. The reason for this is that naturally-acquired immunity lasts for a lifetime. The vaccine proponents quickly latched onto this concept and applied it to vaccine-induced immunity. But, there was one major problem – vaccine-induced immunity lasted for only a relatively short period, from 2 to 10 years at most, and then this applies only to humoral immunity. This is why they began, silently, to suggest boosters for most vaccines, even the common childhood infections such as chickenpox, measles, mumps, and rubella.

Then they discovered an even greater problem, the boosters were lasting for only 2 years or less. This is why we are now seeing mandates that youth entering colleges have multiple vaccines, even those which they insisted gave lifelong immunity, such as the MMR. The same is being suggested for full-grown adults. Ironically, no one in the media or medical field is asking what is going on. They just accept that it must be done.

That vaccine-induced herd immunity is mostly myth can be proven quite simply. When I was in medical school, we were taught that all of the childhood vaccines lasted a lifetime. This thinking existed for over 70 years. It was not until relatively recently that it was discovered that most of these vaccines lost their effectiveness 2 to 10 years after being given. What this means is that at least half the population, that is the baby boomers, have had no vaccine-induced immunity against any of these diseases for which they had been vaccinated very early in life. In essence, at least 50% or more of the population was unprotected for decades.

If we listen to present-day wisdom, we are all at risk of resurgent massive epidemics should the vaccination rate fall below 95%. Yet, we have all lived for at least 30 to 40 years with 50% or less of the population having vaccine protection. That is, herd immunity has not existed in this country for many decades and no resurgent epidemics have occurred. Vaccine-induced herd immunity is a lie used to frighten doctors, public-health officials, other medical personnel, and the public into accepting vaccinations.

When we examine the scientific literature, we find that for many of the vaccines protective immunity was 30 to 40%, meaning that 70% to 60% of the public has been without vaccine protection. Again, this would mean that with a 30% to 40% vaccine-effectiveness rate combined with the fact that most people lost their immune protection within 2 to 10 year of being vaccinated, most of us were without the magical 95% number needed for herd immunity. This is why vaccine defenders insist the vaccines have 95% effectiveness rates.

Without the mantra of herd immunity, these public-health officials would not be able to justify forced mass vaccinations. I usually give the physicians who question my statement that herd immunity is a myth a simple example. When I was a medical student almost 40 years ago, it was taught that the tetanus vaccine would last a lifetime. Then 30 years after it had been mandated, we discovered that its protection lasted no more than 10 years. Then, I ask my doubting physician if he or she has ever seen a case of tetanus? Most have not. I then tell them to look at the yearly data on tetanus infections – one sees no rise in tetanus cases. The same can be said for measles, mumps, and other childhood infections. It was, and still is, all a myth.

Russell L. Blaylock, M.D.
09-08-2014 01:14 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post





[9] Salathé M, Bonhoeffer S (December 2008). "The effect of opinion clustering on disease outbreaks". J R Soc Interface. 5 (29): 1505–8. doi:10.1098/rsif.2008.0271. PMC 2607358. PMID 18713723.


In summary...
Our results based on computer simulations suggest that the current estimates of vaccination coverage necessary to avoid outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases might be too low.


Now going back to your original stance that unvaccinated kids are causing vaccinated kids to get the disease they are vaccinated against.
Herd Immunity.
It makes me smile when kids that have had all dosages of a vaccine and still get the diseases will point to our 'herd immunity' numbers are not high enough as opposed to maybe, ummmmm, i don't know, maybe the vaccines just are not that effective?
Maybe the vaccine approach weakens the immune system?
Maybe .gov should not be trusted?
09-08-2014 01:09 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post

[8] Gupta RK, Best J, MacMahon E (May 2005). "Mumps and the UK epidemic 2005". BMJ (Clinical Research Ed.) 330 (7500): 1132–5. doi:10.1136/bmj.330.7500.1132. PMC 557899. PMID 15891229.
Did you read this one?
If you did, nowhere does it address your statement that unvaccinated kids are the cause of vaccinated kids getting the disease they are vaccinated against.
In summation...
The UK epidemic illustrates the susceptibility of certain cohorts who have not been vaccinated and have not developed immunity through exposure to mumps because of a decrease in mumps circulation after implementation of a childhood immunization program. The epidemic also underscores the importance of ensuring high levels of mumps immunity among adolescents and young adults when vaccination with mumps-containing vaccine is introduced into the routine immunization schedule for children.
09-08-2014 01:00 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
Um... Basic Biology? Are you guys really not understanding?

You realize that what causes these diseases are Bacteria and Viruses correct? You are also aware that as bacteria and virus replicate they mutate, this is the most basic and fundamental principle of evolution, the more the Bacteria and Virus are ABLE to replicate, the more likely they are to adapt to a host that was previously inoculated to their disease. This should be fairly simple science for like... a grade 10 student... The less hosts that are available to the bacteria/virus -> the less the bacteria/virus can replicate -> lower chances of adapting to a more dangerous form.

You should really read up on "Herd Immunity", it specifically explains why immunization is so important to a society.

Also, many studies that show exactly what I'm talking about:



[7] Glanz JM, McClure DL, Magid DJ, et al. (June 2009). "Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children". Pediatrics 123 (6): 1446–51. doi:10.1542/peds.2008-2150. PMID 19482753.
do you read what you post? You did not with the HPV and this first one, you obviuosly did not because the experiment was showing that UNvaccinated kids had a higher risk to get Pertussis vs their vaccinated counterparts. It has NOTHING to do with vaccinated kids getting the disease because of the unvaccinated.
Here is the conclusion:
Children of parents who refuse pertussis immunizations are at high risk for pertussis infection relative to vaccinated children. Herd immunity does not seem to completely protect unvaccinated children from pertussis.

NOTE: Washington and California numbers would actually make the statement false in regards to Pertussis as it was the vaccinated kids that got sick at about 80%+ vs unvaccinated
09-08-2014 12:51 PM
SEVENS
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
Um... Basic Biology? Are you guys really not understanding?

You realize that what causes these diseases are Bacteria and Viruses correct? You are also aware that as bacteria and virus replicate they mutate, this is the most basic and fundamental principle of evolution, the more the Bacteria and Virus are ABLE to replicate, the more likely they are to adapt to a host that was previously inoculated to their disease. This should be fairly simple science for like... a grade 10 student... The less hosts that are available to the bacteria/virus -> the less the bacteria/virus can replicate -> lower chances of adapting to a more dangerous form.

.
So Vaccinated people cannot be hosts? Back to the "if your vaccinated then why worry"?
09-08-2014 12:42 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
It allows the disease to gain more hosts and have more chance for mutation, putting anyone who has been vaccinated at risk AGAIN.

Here are more lies being perpetrated by big pharma- Cutting down on the risks of Cancer from HPV: HPV Vaccine and Rates of Genital Warts

God damn doctors trying to stop Cancer from happening so big pharma can make loads of money fighting said cancer...
Did you even read the link you provided?
i did and warts are well, warts. A very common thing and has zero health impact.
In previous info i posted, i gave you the numbers and percentage of cancer that counts. HPV has not reduced mortality rates.
Go back and educate yourself man.
09-08-2014 12:37 PM
Travis Waldher Won't refute herd immunity.

At the same time, unless 7 billion people are 100% vaccinated, with the same vaccines across the globe, you'll never reap the benefits of what you are defending.

For example, the CDC doesn't recommend a vaccine for TB, Mexico does. Hey look a bacteria that is free to spread in this country, yet only 1-24 out of every 100,000 contract it in North America. That included Mexico with a similar rate to the U.S. Keep in mind TB is airborne.

Tuberculosis - Chapter 3 - 2014 Yellow Book | Travelers' Health | CDC



09-08-2014 12:35 PM
NERVEman
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadPirate Redbeard View Post
Um... Basic Biology? Are you guys really not understanding?

You realize that what causes these diseases are Bacteria and Viruses correct? You are also aware that as bacteria and virus replicate they mutate, this is the most basic and fundamental principle of evolution, the more the Bacteria and Virus are ABLE to replicate, the more likely they are to adapt to a host that was previously inoculated to their disease. This should be fairly simple science for like... a grade 10 student... The less hosts that are available to the bacteria/virus -> the less the bacteria/virus can replicate -> lower chances of adapting to a more dangerous form.

You should really read up on "Herd Immunity", it specifically explains why immunization is so important to a society.

Also, many studies that show exactly what I'm talking about:



[7] Glanz JM, McClure DL, Magid DJ, et al. (June 2009). "Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children". Pediatrics 123 (6): 1446–51. doi:10.1542/peds.2008-2150. PMID 19482753.

[8] Gupta RK, Best J, MacMahon E (May 2005). "Mumps and the UK epidemic 2005". BMJ (Clinical Research Ed.) 330 (7500): 1132–5. doi:10.1136/bmj.330.7500.1132. PMC 557899. PMID 15891229.

[9] Salathé M, Bonhoeffer S (December 2008). "The effect of opinion clustering on disease outbreaks". J R Soc Interface. 5 (29): 1505–8. doi:10.1098/rsif.2008.0271. PMC 2607358. PMID 18713723.

But I'm sure you're wackjob antivaccer friends have all kinds of "studies" and "facts" to refute herd immunity as well...

Que NERVEman copy/paste wall of text.
you just refuse to read anything i post. IF you did, you would see that paper after paper discusses in detail that the unvaccinated are not responsible for vaccinated people getting the disease that they vaccinate against.
disease.
Yes, i understand microbilogy and using text book theory to explain reality. In this case reality does not agree with your textbook knowledge.

Again, reason vaccinated kids get the disease is because the vaccines are ineffective. period.
Measels, whooping cough, flu, etc.
i have copy/pasted enough stuff to even have the most narrow minded person maybe open their eyes to the possibility vaccines are not the greatest thing to mankind.

Go ahead and comment on why a 9 yr old needs a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease?
Go ahead and tell me again about the success of Polio vaccines when the factual evidence does not support it.

PS, if i do not follow up my viewpoint with concrete examples (copy/paste) then i would be just like you, talking from a textbook with no real substance.
PPS. CDC has been very public about the fact non vaccinated kids are NOT responsible for vaccinated kids getting sick. My good god man, think about it. You say vaccines are safe and effective but when one vaccinated kid gets the disease, its the fault of the kid not vaccinated (who does not get the disease).
Its laughable.
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