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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-07-2018 01:54 PM
LowDown Man, I built that engine (used to be Lowtorious) a life time ago.
08-07-2018 06:22 AM
VolcomMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by 81Mocker View Post
In my experiences, Napa sells crap parts for too much money these days. I get better prices and options from rock auto and use Oreilly when I’m in a pinch. I got an Aisin oil pump from them off the shelf for way less than what Napa was going to sell me. I bought a Napa pcv valve from them for $8 and it snapped in half when I attached the hose. They gave me a hard time about returning it. I saw the same one of rock auto for $2.10 when I ordered a different one.
13 year bump!! Hell yeah!
08-03-2018 02:37 PM
81Mocker In my experiences, Napa sells crap parts for too much money these days. I get better prices and options from rock auto and use Oreilly when I’m in a pinch. I got an Aisin oil pump from them off the shelf for way less than what Napa was going to sell me. I bought a Napa pcv valve from them for $8 and it snapped in half when I attached the hose. They gave me a hard time about returning it. I saw the same one of rock auto for $2.10 when I ordered a different one.
07-12-2005 05:41 PM
Lowtorious I'm not sure what's going on. The t-stat was from NAPA and I plan on replacing it with one of the dual stage Toyota t-stats Roger Brown runs on his '85.
07-12-2005 04:39 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtorious
I got mine bored 0.060 over. This engine is definately more power than my last.
The original motor had over 300K on it though. On top of the over bore, I've got several other additions including a "high output" engnbldr.com head, 270 cam, and a thorley header feeding a complete 2 1/4" exhaust. I've also removed the entire EGR system. Yes, it's more powerful than the last but I can't pinpoint what mod did what. On the other hand, I'm not sure if it's my t-stat or what but according to my Autometer electrical temp guage, this motor consistantly runs @ 210 at highway speeds and about 195* at idle.
It would interesting to see what water temp reading you get with a good Autometer mechanical gauge. In my early Chevy engine days, heating problems caused by big over-bore was sometimes a problem, especially when compression ratio was increased more fuel was burned. From what I've been told about the 22s, your temperature issue (if it's accurate) shouldn't be caused by a .060" over bore, but I'd still like to personally hear from more guys with over-bored blocks.
Gnarls.
07-12-2005 11:26 AM
Lowtorious I got mine bored 0.060 over. This engine is definately more power than my last.
The original motor had over 300K on it though. On top of the over bore, I've got several other additions including a "high output" engnbldr.com head, 270 cam, and a thorley header feeding a complete 2 1/4" exhaust. I've also removed the entire EGR system. Yes, it's more powerful than the last but I can't pinpoint what mod did what. On the other hand, I'm not sure if it's my t-stat or what but according to my Autometer electrical temp guage, this motor consistantly runs @ 210 at highway speeds and about 195* at idle.
07-12-2005 09:15 AM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStomper-Toy
Gnarl's, I would say that most people on here respect your thoughts and input - so don't be so hard on your self.

Reading their (LC) listed specs on the off-set sound like it has more torque than the street pro cam before it (Which is what I'm running today in my crawler). We did purchase the off-set to install in a new crawler were currently building. All I can give you is the "accelleramometerrectum" aka sphincter factor results.

On boring out to max size pistons, would this not give you at the very least low end power also "torque". Nothing can replace c.i.'s

My big concern with poking out to max is the heating issues that come with it. When you bore out cylinder walls you’re making the walls thinner. This can cause an engine to overheat easier under the right conditions, and then run the big risk of warpping the cylinder walls...
Rockstomper-Toy,

Thanks for comment. In talking to power engine builders, for example LCE, a large percentage of their engines are actually built 80 over with no problems. 20 to 40 over seems to be a common over-bore. Going 80 over turns your 2.4 liter into a 2.5 liter and would give you significant bottom-end increase. If I were building an engine and boring was required I'd probably bored it as big as I could to gain the displacement. The trade-off would be if something happened prematurely, then you'd probably be looking at another block. I'd like to talk to some owners with engines that are over-bored that much just to get some "street" feedback, but I'm a skeptic.
Gnarls.
07-12-2005 08:06 AM
Landslide Gnarl's, I would say that most people on here respect your thoughts and input - so don't be so hard on your self.

Reading their (LC) listed specs on the off-set sound like it has more torque than the street pro cam before it (Which is what I'm running today in my crawler). We did purchase the off-set to install in a new crawler were currently building. All I can give you is the "accelleramometerrectum" aka sphincter factor results.

On boring out to max size pistons, would this not give you at the very least low end power also "torque". Nothing can replace c.i.'s

My big concern with poking out to max is the heating issues that come with it. When you bore out cylinder walls you’re making the walls thinner. This can cause an engine to overheat easier under the right conditions, and then run the big risk of warpping the cylinder walls...
07-12-2005 12:02 AM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockStomper-Toy
Gnarls, what are your feelings or results on this new L C Engineering cam Part # 1022024 Pro camshaft - offset?

LC cam link here
RockStomper-Toy,

LCE has published inaccurate cam specs on their site. In the past, I've also gotten 3 different cams specs from three different guys there on the same cam. So, I'm not real confident in what they say about their cams. Having said that, after-factory camming a 22R EFI is probably tricky, and I'd like to think LCE (with a good reputation) has done some homework. I'd love to see some engine dyno data, but that is probably wishful thinking at best.

I have run the numbers several times on that cam. The cam has lots of lift and duration. I'd like to know on what engine (stock, modified, etc) LCE tested the cam and how they got the opening and closing numbers with their stated duration. It appears their "split profile" requires lots of cam advance, which may be necessary to keep the EFI ECU happy.

Quite frankly, I have very limited knowledge with 22RE EFI specs, sensors, and cam profile design criteria (my focus has been on the 22 carb'd engine). LCE, like others, is a race engine builder and obviously like the higher RPM/HP numbers - usually trading off torque at the 2500 to 3500 RPM range. Nothing wrong with that, except the cam applications seem to lean in the "race" engine direction more than in the "street/4-wheeling" engine needs, at least to my way of thinking. If I were going to buy that camshaft for my street 22RE, I'd want to see some test data.
That's just my worthless opinion.
Gnarls.
07-11-2005 10:53 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
I flowed 14 heads, all of which I ported, and tested on my Superflow bench. 8 were sold. Regardless of what I'm percieved as, the difference between what I'm stating, and what you're trying to defend, is that combinations tried and trued in real builds, tests, and useage cannot be paralleled by a tabletop program, which are platformed to duplicate "inertia units". Too many factors are absent to even come close. The cam specs. you've written are almost 3 years out of date, but using them is simple, and self explanitory. Truthfuly G, if you want an education on camshaft functions, there are several books available to help you out. You asked for "real certified dyno tests representing usage of the C270", Jeff Mosk has them on his page. Over 200+ RWH & TQ on pump, detuned, on 3 cylinders, with a broken piston ;-) You mention Gale Banks using the same program as you? BS on that one G, he denounces tabletops as "A joke." He does however use a 2.5 million dollar Eddy Current chassis dyno.......I guess if you're program duplicates this and you're flying this kinda cash....I wanna come work for you......but only "virtually".
Tim,
My intention is not to defend anything.. it is what it is... My only intention was to simply post some information, mostly my opinion, on the question posed by the poster regarding "boring" a block. I used my experiences to give an example of what a dyno "might show".

You are a purported expert Toyota engine builder, I am not. I can debate, argue, cut through what you state like a hot knife through butter, but what's the point? It's all rather subjective.

I can tell you that during my brief 6 years of competitive racing, most of my race engines were dyno'd by a very competent engine builder, arguably one of the best in the USA. One of his tests was on fuel. I raced using the same fuel mixture he engine dyno tested. The results on the dyno proved signficant power increases, but on the track the fuel made the engine not as "driveable". My conclusion: more power gain by fuel was a very relative factor.

There are, in fact, real world "factors that are absent" in your "tried and trued".... For example, can your Superflow flowbench measure "swirl"? How important is swirl in terms of flow or performance?

The flowbench, like the engine dyno is only a tool. 5 pulls on dyno can never duplicate or simulate what happens to an engine bolted to a chassis while it's on the race track with a driver at the controls, racing to win.... neither can my desktop dyno software.

The desktop dyno software that I've "played" with for almost 4 years is a tool. And it may be a "joke" to some. For me, it's provided some very interesting results and discoveries. The accuracy, like your flowbench, is subjective. Most of the camshaft profiles offered by the well-known aftermarket "Toyota Gurus" (yours included) for the 22R engines, according to my "joke software", seem to be profiled to push the HP number at above 4,000 RPMs, seemingly trading off badly needed low to mid-range torque. Why? Most people I know driving Toyota trucks with 20/22 engines don't race, they just want more power in the useful RPM range. If the accuracy of the engine dyno and a flowbench are "tried and trued", as you say, explain why a 1/2 dozen major camshaft manufacturers and aftermarket suppliers all sell and market different camshaft profiles for the same engine with completely different cam specs, and claim performance gains without offering any "proof"? My dilemma, and the reason for my initial research into camshafts for my 1985 22R was simply to understand why I would buy one camshaft over another - afterall... the suppliers are all purported "experts".

Unless and until someone can disprove the results of my "joke" software with more factual data, I will continue to believe what I've experienced.

I would like additional "education" on camshafts, can you give me the name of your suggested list of good reading? Oh... if it weren't for "inertia units", your flowbench would just be a "bench", wouldn't it?

It's all fun.
Gnarls.
07-11-2005 04:33 PM
Landslide Gnarls, what are your feelings or results on this new L C Engineering cam Part # 1022024 Pro camshaft - offset?

LC cam link here

Tim, so let me get this straight. You grind each of your cams to different spec's per the head you have to install it on?
07-11-2005 04:06 PM
c_t_22 wow, thanks alot for all of the input
07-11-2005 01:27 PM
[email protected] I flowed 14 heads, all of which I ported, and tested on my Superflow bench. 8 were sold. Regardless of what I'm percieved as, the difference between what I'm stating, and what you're trying to defend, is that combinations tried and trued in real builds, tests, and useage cannot be paralleled by a tabletop program, which are platformed to duplicate "inertia units". Too many factors are absent to even come close. The cam specs. you've written are almost 3 years out of date, but using them is simple, and self explanitory. Truthfuly G, if you want an education on camshaft functions, there are several books available to help you out. You asked for "real certified dyno tests representing usage of the C270", Jeff Mosk has them on his page. Over 200+ RWH & TQ on pump, detuned, on 3 cylinders, with a broken piston ;-) You mention Gale Banks using the same program as you? BS on that one G, he denounces tabletops as "A joke." He does however use a 2.5 million dollar Eddy Current chassis dyno.......I guess if you're program duplicates this and you're flying this kinda cash....I wanna come work for you......but only "virtually".
07-10-2005 06:26 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowtorious
Tim - you need to come on the board more often to set the record straight on engine building.
I 2nd that motion!!!!!!!
Gnarls.
07-10-2005 06:24 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
1. I've only seen different results as a result of changes made, or occured, ie: test temps, intake air temps, etc.
2. "Butt dyno" LOL, I like that, a carry with you accelleramometerrectum that really works!!
3. You asked "Do I sell each cam with a head that's been flow benched with a matching cam"? Gnarly, that question makes no sense at all, lol. Each engine I build and head sell has a camshaft match to the numbers achieved on that particular head, and this varies depending on the combination the customer has, or has ordered for, or I'm building. When a customer calls in for a cam and asks "what is the best cam I have for thier combo"? I always ask if they know what their head flows, always. If a customer calls in and asks for a C270, I box up a C270.
4. I did just say that...................
5. Which cam would you like specs for?
How many heads did you "flow" last month??

Yeah...I know.. you are a perceived "God of Toyota" engine building by some people. I will happily defer to your "expertise", but I still think you should back up the "sales & marketing" of your camshafts with "real world" test data that means something to the average "dummy" like me.

Can you produce and share certified engine dyno test data that shows the results of your 22RE cam C-270 with the specs:

Intake opens at 10, exhaust opens at 70,
Intake closes at 54, exhaust closes at 26
Intake Duration = 206 degrees @ .050"
Exhaust Duration = 216 degrees @.050"
Valve Lash Adjust = Intake .015", Exhaust .015"

And then, PLEASE, explain the valve opening and closing events? Oh by the way, Gale Banks uses the same software I use.

Gnarls.
07-10-2005 02:26 PM
[email protected] 1. I've only seen different results as a result of changes made, or occured, ie: test temps, intake air temps, etc.
2. "Butt dyno" LOL, I like that, a carry with you accelleramometerrectum that really works!!
3. You asked "Do I sell each cam with a head that's been flow benched with a matching cam"? Gnarly, that question makes no sense at all, lol. Each engine I build and head sell has a camshaft match to the numbers achieved on that particular head, and this varies depending on the combination the customer has, or has ordered for, or I'm building. When a customer calls in for a cam and asks "what is the best cam I have for thier combo"? I always ask if they know what their head flows, always. If a customer calls in and asks for a C270, I box up a C270.
4. I did just say that...................
5. Which cam would you like specs for?
07-10-2005 01:57 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Gotta disagree gain... watched pull after pull relay identicle peak readings
.. Of course. But have you ever seen "different results" pull after pull?

Quote:
You cannot write that because something "feels faster, it is faster", and that is what "real world" seat of the pants" would claim.
... gotta disagree... race drivers do it every day!! And I have experienced "seat-of-the-pants" changes with my butt-dyno many many times!!

Quote:
Ever here of Gale Banks?
... I think so...He just did a serious writeup in this months diesel power mag that describes the issues, and types of dyno testing that is solid, versus hype.

Quote:
You give me the flow bench values on your head @ 10" water, and the bore used, and I will give you a cam spec. Without knowing what a head flows there is no way you can determine whether a cam is going to hurt, or help, or maximize a combination.
... interesting... do you sell each of your camshafts with a head that's been flow-benched with a matching camshaft?

Quote:
This is fact, R series heads have a serious inconsistency when it comes to flow deficits.
... I know some engine builders that would say that about most production heads.. wouldn't you??

What about your cam specs????

Gnarls.
07-10-2005 01:46 PM
Lowtorious Tim - you need to come on the board more often to set the record straight on engine building.
07-10-2005 01:42 PM
[email protected] Gnarls,

Gotta disagree gain. I've sat in on engine dyno sessions at DEI here in Mooresville, and watched pull after pull relay identicle peak readings, and if you'd refer to the engine builders at DEI as "saltless" then I'd have to grin ;-) You cannot write that because something "feels faster, it is faster", and that is what "real world" seat of the pants" would claim. Ever here of Gale Banks? He just did a serious writeup in this months diesel power mag that describes the issues, and types of dyno testing that is solid, versus hype. You give me the flow bench values on your head @ 10" water, and the bore used, and I will give you a cam spec. Without knowing what a head flows there is no way you can determine whether a cam is going to hurt, or help, or maximize a combination. This is fact, R series heads have a serious inconsistency when it comes to flow deficits.
07-10-2005 01:39 PM
wr250 you can gain 2 hp simply by doing a tune-up. more if the air filter/cat is clogged. 2hp is not that big of a difference.
you might even gain a few horses by "blueprinting" the motor. (making it exactly to factory specs).

the intake and exhaust mods will gain a bunch of hp through the range. even with a stock cam.
as far as the dyno is concerned, you can gain/lose 2 hp simply by making 2 tests. one in the cool of the morn ,and 1 in the heat of the afternoon.
07-10-2005 01:18 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Going + .040 will allow two more bore increases, + .060 & + .080. Larger bores decrease valve shrouding, and add displacement. This equals power. Too many real world factors are not present in a tabletop "virtual dyno" program, one most important item being true engine load. Albeit they're probably fun to play with.
Hi Tim,

Yes, nothing replaces the real thing. As I'm sure you know, even real engine dyno testing doesn't always indicate on the graphs what a driver experiences on the track. Also, any dyno engineer worth his salt, will tell you that there are "too many real world factors that ARE present" that make 10 pulls on an engine produce virtually difference results every pull!!

In the absence of "real world factors", namely "real world" certified dyno test results.. that are published so the people interested can "see" some facts about what they are buying or supposedly buying, I think my virtual dyno has performed well for making comparisons. And, in fact, the test results have paralleled "real world" seat-of-pants" experiences.

I'd love to see some "real world" dyno data to show me how for off a "virtual dyno" can be!! Got Data??? Speaking of data, can you publish, or private email me if it's not published, the cam specs on our camshafts? It's all just "fun".
Gnarls.
07-10-2005 10:44 AM
[email protected] Going + .040 will allow two more bore increases, + .060 & + .080. Larger bores decrease valve shrouding, and add displacement. This equals power. Too many real world factors are not present in a tabletop "virtual dyno" program, one most important item being true engine load. Albeit they're probably fun to play with.
07-08-2005 09:28 PM
hornett22 i'd recommend the 40 over for power but you won't get another bore out of it if you ever need to rebuild again.something to think about.always have spares.
07-08-2005 07:50 PM
Gnarly4X
Quote:
Originally Posted by c_t_22
im rebuilding my 22re and it needs bored and i was wondering how many thousandths over i should do it. My uncle says .02 but i want some HP and .03 and .04 pisons are available from engnbldrs kit. could the block get wrecked from goin .04? is it way more expensive to go .04? i dont know what im doing here help me out.
That is a very good question. Here's what an engine dyno might show. These numbers are for a 22R, so a 22RE will be slightly higher but should be parallel. .030" bored over (144.42 cubic inches stock to 146.82 cubic inches, increase of only 2.40 cubic inches in displacment) obviously will give you a signficant seat-of-the pants increase in throttle response. If I were rebuilding a 22 from block up, boring it would be a definite plus at a low-cost investment!! This is a no-brainer!! A couple numbers increase in torque will be very noticeable in a 22R/RE, about 2% increase in peak torque just a tad below your cruise RPM.

22R, Stock Bore, CC252S Cam
204/204 Duration, .409/.409 Lift, 110 lobe centerline
Header & Exhaust
1400 RPM - 91.6, brake tq, 24.4 brake HP
1800 RPM - 114, 39.2
2200 RPM - 127, 53.3
2600 RPM - 138, 68.4
3000 RPM - 144, 82.4
3400 RPM - 147, 95.3
3800 RPM - 144, 104
4200 RPM - 140, 112
4600 RPM - 134, 118
5000 RPM - 123, 117

22R, BORED .030" OVER, CC252S Cam
204/204 Duration, .409/.409 Lift, 110 lobe centerline
Header & Exhaust
1400 RPM - 94.6, brake tq, 25.2 brake HP
1800 RPM - 117, 40.0
2200 RPM - 131, 54.7
2600 RPM - 141, 69.9
3000 RPM - 147, 84.0
3400 RPM - 150, 97.0
3800 RPM - 147, 106
4200 RPM - 142, 113
4600 RPM - 135, 118
5000 RPM - 123, 117

Stock Bore….Pk Tq=147, Avg Tq=130, Pk HP=118, Avg HP=81.4
.030" OVER…Pk Tq=150, Avg Tq=133, Pk HP=118, Avg HP=82.5

That's just my worthless opinion.
Gnarls.
07-08-2005 05:09 PM
Lowtorious when you order your rebuild kit from engnbldr.com, get a ported head w/ the oversize valves too! Well worth the money as everything is brand spankin' new.
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