|09-05-2019 10:03 PM|
On the leak - maybe it's OK now - I cleaned up the adapter to T19, then hit it with a liberal amount of Right Stuff, turning the entire gap between the two adapters into a gasket.
After a short jaunt around the neighborhood (couple miles) I found that the exhaust got the 14-bolt pretty hot, so I added a down-turn to try to direct the exhaust under the axle tube.
Maybe I need to go back and see about snaking up and out like I originally wanted to.
I then had a visit from Mark Ashford and family which involved the second trip for the Scout - to the restaurant 2 miles down the road. Jamie Ashford got to ride with me.
Trip number three for the rebuilt Scout?
200 miles on the trailer, and then 26 water crossings, followed by 26 water crossings.
A little bit of rough trail, a lot of close in brush, but probably the worst part was a section where the road was narrow - maybe there wasn't much road between my tire and the edge, but there IS 15" of tire width there..
I was driving, so I didn't get too many pictures of me doing the water crossings, but my wife did snap this one when we paused during one of the water crossings for a photo opportunity against a cave.
Water was deep enough to come in some of the JKs, but only two or three times did I hear it hit the headers.
I had some trouble with the Atlas staying in 2-high - it popped out a few times. I'm not sure what that really was, but spent most of the day in 4-low in 3rd and 4th gear. (6.46 and 3.8 - so 4th gear is roughly low gear in a close ratio 4spd, 3/low is about 1st/high)
Unlike the Dana 20, the Atlas didn't sound unhappy being wound up.
The batteries do need replaced, and I'm looking again at alternate electric fans.
Idling along most of the day, the fan would hold 200. When I plugged in the electric oven, that was enough of a draw that I noticed the Scout sitting at 205 and the fan didn't shut off.
I could try to upgrade the Taurus motor with the Mark VIII motor (<$100 and pretty easy) which supposedly will move more air.
I'm also thinking about the 2010 F150 fan, and whether that can be made to fit. The popular LS1 fans are too wide, I think.
I drained the front diff when i got home - no need, the oil was good, but I haven't changed it since I put it together..
Unfortunately, the GLO diff cover with the 1/8 NPT drain plug had a cross-threaded drain plug. I chased it, and then found I couldn't get a 1/8 NPT recessed allen plug in town.. it'll be here this weekend.
I then decided that before I drain the rear diff, I ordered a Barnes4WD "13-bolt" cover. The stock 14-bolt cover is peeled in a few spots, but not leaking, but I'm overdue for an easy shave of the 14-bolt.
|08-22-2019 09:25 PM|
So exhaust wise, the crossover is a little lower than I wanted, but it's been a while since I laid frame.
Maybe I'll weld up some small trapezoid ramps at the right spot just in case..
The muffler hangs down just a bit, too - and I have a slight concern if I put it on the ramp the other way, is it still far enough away from the driveshaft? I need to check.
It is quieter than the glasspacks, but still sounds snorty enough.
In other news, with it on the ramp, I started to think I needed to cut some more.
But it isn't just the outer quarter, I'd need to either move it back a bit, or re-tub the front where the back seat is mounted.
But then I noticed the shock is out of bump, and the tire isn't quite touching.
And I hadn't quite reached the lowered bump stop.
I need 3/4 of an inch. I'll probably take some 1x1 square and weld it to the U-bolt plate and call it a day.
Any opinion on this tire rash?
The T19 continues to leak some fluid and it's bothering me. I cleaned it up last night, now I need to run it and look - it seems to not leak just sitting, but run it and it will after - I'm thinking the rear bearing is getting oiled and the two gaskets between the adapter and T19 are where it's coming out.
There was a gap when I bolted the adapter to the transmission - not much, but enough to make me consider putting the gaskets in place so when I tightened the bolts I wasn't trying to bend the aluminum tailhousing adapter (as much)
I got a new tube of Right Stuff last night but haven't tried the "caulking" approach yet - I'd like to see if I can spot where it starts, first, before I make it impossible to chase it - and/or pull this all apart and make some new gaskets and Right Stuff the whole mess..
|08-22-2019 09:12 PM|
The crossover hangs a little below the frame and crossmember but I was hoping for a lot to keep it flush.
The more important part.. the driveshaft clears..
2.25 back to a Y and into the 3" muffler.
And while articulated on the ramp is far from full droop.. the 1410 was not stressed.
Nor the 1310 CV.
|08-22-2019 09:09 PM|
I kept hearing that the Dana 20 wasn't going to hold up to the abuse -I was still running a 10-spline rear output.
I expected the case to fail, or the rear output - not the gears.
The aftermarket bottom cover probably saved it - I was looking at girdles and other things but didn't do anything.
Then, when the gears died, I decided I didn't want to throw money away.. and I'd make it hurt once.
OK.. make that two Woodies..
the 1410 unit was less than $100 more than the 1310 CV.
There's a muffler shop in town where the owner bought a 4-door IH 4x4 Loadstar a few years back that I had been eyeballing - we'd spoken a few times but I never did stop by..
So I did, to find he'd sold out to a buddy from high school.
I don't know if it is a good thing he recognized me in a shirt n' tie or not.. but in any case.. he said he could pull this off.
Wednesday I dropped it off in the morning and picked it up after work.
Came out about as well as I could have hoped.
So, after I got it home... RTI ramp..
Chancy and I discussed the up/over/out approach but he was out of stock on the 3" elbows necessary to make it happen - maybe I'll go back, maybe it'll stay like this. Not much different from how it was for the past several years..
Now, frustratingly... see the bolt in the dangling rod that's part of the ladder bar I had to move/shorten?
I just HAD to take a quick spin down the road and back after i got off the ramp - and then pulled it into the shop and installed the ladder bar I had finished welding.
Somewhere on that short joy ride I lost the 5/8-NF nut and the heim misalignment spacer. I walked the route a few times last night to no avail.
So.. a new nut tonight.. and misalignment spacers on order..
|08-20-2019 09:23 AM|
|76scoutII||Subscribed. I have a 76 scout with a 392 and t19 using the novak kit and a jeep dana 300 im currently rebuilding with 4to 1 and 32 spline outputs front and rear. The mainshaft in the novak kit broke a few years back. It was on a halfway challenging obstacle i had done before with the same rig with dana 20 case. Novak was awesome to work with, they wanted pics, and for me to return the old one. Then they sent a new one along with most of the parts that ride on it, the bearings and a few synchros and some other stuff. My friend jayson did the rebuild for me the 2nd time since i was in school and was too busy. So far it has been good, but we will see once i get the rear output from jb conversions, and i take the rig out on some trails. Awesome scout build!|
|08-12-2019 09:24 PM|
I have 2" of clearance below the stock mounting foot.
I have thought some on cutting that down with the sawzall..
There is more room if you go just in front of the foot, into the notch just ahead - so we'll see what the exhaust shop says next week.
As you can see from the shifter pictures, going over the adapter and down the other side isn't happening..
With the front driveshaft in, oil put into things, and so forth it was time to muck out the shop - and check another clearance I was interested in.
The rear shock hoop that runs up from the frame and through the body to the other side was built using some 1.5" tubing.
If I'm going in for a custom exhaust, I'm going to ask about running the exhaust out the back - but on a spring over Scout, that's a problem.
I've solved it before by going "up, over/out, rear" with a series of 90-deg bends right behind the muffler to take the exhaust out between the frame and the body at the "step" at the B-pillar.
Problem is, to run it out the back, it had to go through the shock mount, between the frame and the rear 7100 Bilsteins.
So I clearanced it some.
Ideally, the exhaust would run straight back to the rear spring mount (you can see a ground wire attached to it) and then a down-turn.
If not, it can dump in front of the rear axle where it was before.
Muffler guy mentioned Magnaflow or a dual-inlet Flowmaster 50 series.
Anything will be a step up from the glasspacks.. but I wouldn't mind a much quieter Scout.
I took the opportunity for some daylight pictures - and a lot of cleaning of the shop.
The 1410 yoke just clears the Ruff Stuff pinion guard.
And fortunately, when I put the ladder bar mount on the pinion guard, I put it just enough back that the extra bolt length and nut are under/behind the yoke enough they don't hit either. Whew.
Driver's exhaust would be just fine..
I'm still not sure how this would fit without the body lift.
I did wind up moving my ladder bar crossmember back about 7" - I could get the crossmember in, but the shackle hit the shifter area of the Atlas. I could have done a few things to try to fix it, but moving the crossmember was the best answer.
I'm awaiting another 7/18-14 weld-bung before I shorten the ladder bar and reinstall the 7/8 heim.
Rear driveshaft came in at 37.5" at rest. It should be here Wednesday.
The T-19 is a little reluctant to go into 1st gear, and while I had the Atlas in FWD-Low when I put it on the ramp, it hasn't wanted to go back in once it was in 4-high - some of it I hope is due to the syncromesh transfercase and my inability to move the Scout around in anything but FWD. By the time you shift the front into neutral, the rear into neutral, then try to jab both forward for low, the big Scout has stopped.
I expect both problems will resolve themselves with a bit of use.
I need to get the tunnel cover back on and the new shifter boot in place.
I did notice the T-19 weeping a drop or two from, I think, the adapter gasket.
When I change the oil, I'll see if I can Right Stuff the outside like caulk and make it stop... or learn to check it more often.. but there's a lot of pain in the rear to tear back in get to that gasket - and they're not just a gasket, but also act as a shim to help keep the adapter flush - perhaps I should've given 'em another skim of Right Stuff between the two gaskets.
|08-12-2019 09:08 PM|
1410 U-bolt yoke for a 14-bolt, next to a used 1310 U-joint from Tigger.
So I had some shifter problems with the standard Atlas shifter.
The inner shift linkage (for RWD, on the left) hit the T19. Specifically, it hit one of the bosses for the top cover.
Solution? Drop it.
In the end, it rubs along the T19 case but that's going to have to be OK.
I may have to bend the front drive shifter some more depending on how badly it hits the tunnel under throttle.
In case you're wondering, the AA shifter handles attach to the aluminum tower with some 1/4" recessed hex head axle bolts. One from each side, and you have to swing the other shifter out of the way to get the pivot bolt in, then hook the relay linkage up.
On a Scout II, you can't get a allen socket on it. You can't even get a regular L allen wrench on it.
I did have a "short" L that I could get in there, but that was a b*tch - until I cut an allen wrench and made a short hex key that I could push into the bolt, and then get after it with a 1/4" open end wrench.
That was a good solution compared to everything else - I darn near drilled an access hole like we often did for SII Dana 20 shifter pivots, but that would not have solved in the side facing the T19.
|08-01-2019 11:40 PM|
So right after I cut the factory mounts off, JetFxr calls to talk about his blown hotrod.. and informed me he ran his exhaust over the reduction box when he ran an Atlas 4spd.
Until tonight, when I realize after trying to install the shifters, there's no way I can go over the adapter housing (only a 2spd).. so in front of the crossmember is still probably the plan.
Test fit of the 2x3 crossmember showed that the Atlas now hits the crossmember on the passenger side mount, and the lower bolts of the front output would be the next thing to hit - so I clearanced it.
Not much extra room, and with the 1" body lift maybe there's really only one clocking that actually works.
I cut the RPT transmission mount in half and re-used it. The AA tailhousing has the mounting bolts about 1" wider compared to stock.
Then I used a 1/2" spacer to make up the height difference and put things back about where they were.
Now I have it bolted in, and my new Tom Wood's front 'shaft is here, so I started on the shifter.
I need to do some fabrication - the "inside" shifter (near the T19) linkage hits the boss on the T-19 case for the bolt for the top cover.
I think I can make it all fit if, instead of all-thread, I weld up a ---___--- steel bar that'll go around the boss in all positions.
Then I have to bend the shifters - the inside one clears the tunnel, but the outer shifter won't - and once I bend the outer shifter in to clear, the inner shifter will be in the way.
If I can get the front 'shaft in I can get it to the exhaust shop.
Meanwhile I just ordered a 1410 yoke for the 14-bolt. I spoke with the driveshaft guys and agonized over how to make things work - but I have ~5deg down slope on the T19 right now, so the 37-deg I thought i needed is more like 32. Looks like I'll be doing a little clearancing, but I can use my 1410 rear output, and won't have to go to a rear CV.
Or so I think today..
BTW, this aluminum case is still heavy, and in the summer with shorts on, it tears the sh*t up out of your legs if you can't hold it and it rides down your legs to the floor. Not any prettier the second or third time, either. The mounting studs leave nice bruises on your stomach, too..
Good thing I wear long pants to work - and lately, long sleeves are hiding the gouges in my forearms, too..
|07-18-2019 11:43 PM|
Sorry, I totally missed where you said you have headers and not regular manifolds. It looks like maybe your only practical high clearance option would be to cut/notch that body seam to fit the pipe through there over the passenger side frame? How married are you to the headers? Reason to not go back to manifolds to be able to go across under pan hump?
I have no added suspension lift other than being spring over on Rancho 44044's on front w/6" shackles and Chevy 63's (4 leaf + full overload) w/5" shackles in back. I had already moved the rear axle back a bit when I originally put the rear 70 and 63's in, but then moved it back another 2" when I installed the Atlas 4 speed to help with the rear driveshaft length. Both driveshafts are 1350 CV's and there are no binding issues at all and I am basically running no limit straps or bump stops. Although I will be modifying/installing new front bump stops because my front springs have settled over the years and now my ram and tie rod have started minorly massaging the very front bottom of the 345 oil pan, lol.
Anyway, if you think any pictures would help, you can PM me your number and I can text some over. I don't have whatever star needed here to post pics, or use any of the separate picture download programs.
|07-18-2019 08:30 PM|
(Maybe tractor puller headers...)
How much lift do you have? I really wanted the 4spd behind the T19, but I got nervous about the rear driveshaft - and even now, I think I "need" 37-deg out of the rear 'shaft to keep what I had before.
(a HP swap is a long ways off)
With the 1" body lift, the belly will still be flat - even if I rotate the Atlas down to relieve the front driveline angles a bit.
Beyond formulating a plan, I haven't started in on the new crossmember yet. I burned down my bandsaw and I'm swapping in a new motor first... so I can more readily cut the steel for the crossmember project.
|07-16-2019 04:52 PM|
|ScoutBurton||I'll have to post or send you pics later, but I basically did this same thing last year. I put an Atlas 4 speed behind my T-19 Wide via Novak Jeep T-18 23 spline adapter and mainshaft kit. I absolutely love it and the gearing options are killer. Was able to air hammer the body a little and rotate the Atlas up for a completely flat belly. I had an exhaust shop route the passenger side pipe down and under/across the oil pan hump, alongside the driver side pipe for a short run, then a 2 into 1 to a nice Magnaflow muffler.|
|07-16-2019 07:04 AM|
|ChiScouter||Thanks for posting Tech, thats all I got|
|07-15-2019 09:44 PM|
A day of reflection and some time with the tape measure tonight..
I think I'm going to fabricate a new crossmember, to pick up the adapter's foot rather than the cast-in T19 foot.
I'll make it from some 2x3 (x1/8 or 3/16) that will essentially butt against the factory crossmember, but the factory unit has to go.
That moves the crossmember back and closer to "under" the front output (less risk of the driveshaft drooping and hitting) AND gives room under the T-19 mounting foot - or just in front of it in the relief - to sneak the exhaust across.
Maybe an oval like the cool kids are doing, but maybe not.
I may make the front driveshaft my priority purchase, since the exhaust shop will need to know what room they have - I'm not yet convinced there's room to go to the outside and under the driveshaft, but maybe. Otherwise, perhaps it can go up against the floor and then down and under the T19, clearing the 'shaft. My lack of up-travel is an advantage there.
A guy could probably run 2.25 exhaust in front of the crossmember and under the T19 and be fine - the picture I linked earlier was done that way, but with a 727 that is shallower - and while I haven't had to lay-frame for a while, if I let the exhaust dip, I'm guaranteed to find a spot that I'll need to do the Scout-frame-slide and I'll have the trick oval exhaust whether I started that way or not.
"I know how much you hated the glasspacks, so I'm thinking we'll just go fender-well open headers from here on out..."
(Even on the old racer, I ran the straight pipes past the B-pillar to put the noise behind me)
I look forward to a single decent and halfway quiet muffler.
Probably still going to dump in front of the rear axle - I've gone "up, over, out, back" (90-deg up, 90-deg outboard, 90-deg to the rear) through the step before, but the rear shock hoops mount outside the frame and are in the way.
In other news, I'm trying to double check that the U-bolt 1410 yoke will be good enough. I've seen things claiming up to 37-deg from a 1410, but usually it says you need to use a flange setup. The yoke may only be good to 27, but hard to find specifics.
ORD has the 1410 U-bolt yoke for the 14-bolt I need for a bit over $100, plus a new nut and crush-sleeve.
Running the math on the driveshaft again.. I'm around 37.25" of length now (vs 42) in the rear.
42" had a 13.5" drop over 39.77" horizontal distance for 18.75 deg at rest.
37.25 with a 13.5" drop over 34.7" horizontal is 21.25 degrees
I had 9" of shock stroke left so to get to 22.5" of drop I'm right at 37deg.
I can't say if I've ever come close to drooping it out to that extent, but there you have it.
30-deg only gets me to 18.62 or 5" of droop, possibly leaving 4" on the table.
So... it looks like I really needed the 1410 flange I thought I ordered.. :P
Northern Drivetrain wants $126 for the 14-bolt 1410 flange.
WFO has a big heat-treated unit..
AA wants just under $100 for the 1410 flange for the Atlas.
Parts Mike has a 1310/1350/1410 flange for $70 and I might still have an e-brake kit option..
I'll have to give Tom Woods a call before I pull the trigger on the 14-bolt parts.
I thought the Atlas was expensive, but it might only be half the cost. :flipff2:
|07-15-2019 08:21 AM|
|Harvester of Sorrow||
My vote is passenger dump into crossover pipe around to drivers dump. Then single outlet out the drivers side. This is how my Scout's exhaust is granted with a Dana300...but effectively the same scenario.
It will also allow you to go to the single exhaust with normal muffler instead of the 'Murica glasspacks.
|07-14-2019 10:16 PM|
Last winter, I found an Advance Adapters 23sp Dana 300 tailhousing adapter for the Ford T-19 for sale. I followed that up with a rebuild kit for the T19. Then a new 1-2 and 3-4 syncro hub...
The T-19 I rebuilt needed it. The tailshaft was shot (not that I knew before hand) - and at least one syncro hub got ruined when I pressed it off the main shaft (they're supposed to slide off)
I was setting things up, waiting for the day I destroyed the Dana 20.
This Spring, that day happened.
And not like I expected it to.. during a full throttle assault on an icy hill, I wound up trying HIGH range and somewhere during that attempt, I took a couple of teeth off the Tera Low 3.15:1 gear set inside the Dana 20.
It wasn't the 10sp rear output I was expecting. Not the case. No, it was the $1000+ gear set.
So, time for an upgrade.
Mock up on the floor confirmed ~3" longer.
The Atlas is actually shorter than the Dana 20, but the transfercase adapter is much longer than the 1" plate IH used.
T-19 with Dana 20
T-19 with Atlas 2spd
So... I have a question for those of you that have BTDT and put an Atlas in your Scout II.
Where did you put the exhaust?
View from the front diff to the t'case
I have a 1" body lift. I can rotate the Atlas until it hits the floor and then back off a little.
I can also drop it an inch or so from there and still have a flat belly.
Neither position allows for even a 2" exhaust to go between the case and the frame or body seam.
How have you solved this?
The higher clocking might let me smash up a pipe and squeeze it by under the Atlas but still above the (bottom of the) frame rail, but with some up and down jogging to go around the crossmember.
I'm not sure how practical it is, but the other thought is to come UP and cork-screw over the driveshaft, and then pass between the Atlas and the crossmember, under the transfer case adapter and then run across to the driver's side and Y into a single muffler.
(I've been wanting to do something other than the dual glasspacks for quite some time.. now I have an opportunity)
Do I need more body lift? (I'd have to redo some of the cage-tie-ins)
I hesitate to cut the floor rib.
I've known folks to run the exhaust outside the frame rails, but I don't see a clean way to get out without more body lift or cutting the floor support.
I could go for the "under-the-oil-pan" cross-over I've seen, but with the headers, that doesn't seem like a convenient path.
I think something went awry on my Atlas order. I swear I asked for a 1410 flange, and a 1310 CV yoke. But I have a 1410 yoke on the rear output and a dual pattern flange for the front.
I can probably live with it - I wanted the rear flange for the opportunity to add an e-brake and based on thinking the 1410 would do more angle with a flange than a yoke.
I need to order a 14-bolt 1410 yoke now (ORD has 'em for $100+ and they sell the new crush sleeve I need) and then see about a driveshaft. (If it were flanged, I might be looking for a Super Duty 'shaft to cut down).
The front will be 1310CV to a 1310 as before. I'll probably call Tom Woods again.
But first, I need a plan for the exhaust so I can be certain of where I'm hanging the 'case.
I found this Thread on BP where it looks like the exhaust was run right in front of the crossmember, under the transmission.
Hmm.. a hard turn after the header, and it would seem to either hang down and get crushed, or get in the way of the front driveshaft's down-travel.
Unless I build an entirely new crossmember to run the adapter housing's mount. I was already concerned about whether my ladder bar crossmember could be installed with the Atlas in there..
|02-13-2018 08:37 PM|
A little more trig notes..
42" length of hypotenuse with a 13.5" drop at rest (rear output is at 32" from the floor and pinion yoke is at 18.5").
18.75deg, but the horizontal distance is only 39.77"
8" more drivetrain length doesn't shorten the driveshaft by 8" but the horizontal distance.
31.77" with 13.5" drop for a 34.5" driveshaft and 23deg at rest. (only 7.5" shorter, not 8.. )
34.52 at 22.5" of droop yields 40.5deg of angle. Not much wants to live at that angle.
If I go with a 1410, flanges, and 37deg and throw a limit strap in place, that puts me at about 20.77" of total drop, or leaving roughly 2" of down-travel on the table.
Pointing the pinion up for a CV might get me the 2, or 2.5" of elevation, but then I'd need 35+ degrees from a CV - and ideally something stronger than a 1310 based joint.
If a 4spd Atlas is a need, I'm going to have to strap the rear diff at 12" of travel.
Probably a good tradeoff.
(Big spender solution could be a HP60 or Hi9 that would recover ~3" of height - but that's not bloody likely at this point - I don't care that much)
OTOH, my friend Mike in his EB buggy is running "only" an NV4500 and a 4.3 Atlas and seems happy enough. No real driveline problems for me with a T19/2spd Atlas. Roughly comparable to what I have now.
I'm still thinking of a close T19 with a 4spd Atlas,or a wide T19 with a 3.8 or 4.3. I'll stew on it some more before I decide which donor to drag into the shop.
Meanwhile, the driver's window regulator is fixed, and I took the Scout for a little run around the block and the alternator was holding ~15V - I didn't run it long enough for it to come down.
There's enough ice that I was able to sit and spin brodies in my field until I got bored with it. I need to get the drone footage of the wiped-clean ice.
(The TSLs, even grooved and siped, just shred the snow down to ice any time I touch the loud pedal)
Here's a product idea - when is someone going to build a "portal" rear output for the Atlas?
We can clock the front output down to relieve the driveline angle, but you can't do much about the rear (you can tilt the whole enchilada a bit) unless you're willing to lower the whole thing and make it a rock magnet.
But what about a 32sp rear output housing that essentially relocates the rear output shaft DOWN (or slightly to one side or the other on an arc - since equal length axle shafts means an offset pinion) - since you likely have a mount hanging under the transmission and/or Atlas, you wouldn't have to lose any ground clearance if you could just bring the rear output at at the bottom of the case instead of the middle.
Put a gear on the output shaft, two side gears along the way, and a matching gear below with the actual rear output. Think: gear drive timing kit (for a non-IH).
It might even allow you to run a speedo without giving up the extra 2" to the longer tailhousing.
(OK so they'd probably need to make it longer in the end to support another bearing - but would a 4-6" drop in output height be worth the extra length?)
|02-05-2018 09:52 PM|
Back to my Dana 20 and upgrades..
I've tracked down an NV4500 or two (~$1k each) but after talking to some other friends.. the NV4500/5.0 Atlas is losing ground to T19 &4spd Atlas.
The OD would make the 5.0 gears a decent performer (not much overlap between high and low range, but the OD would let me stretch that 5:1 'case into decent speeds), but a lot of gear whine running a 5:1 t'case in OD at 5000rpm..
If I stick with the T19 I save enough length to fit the 4spd Atlas.
I measured my rear 'shaft at 42" last night, with about a 13.5" drop at rest, with ~9" of shock shaft still hiding.
So droop would be a 22.5" drop.
Front is 24" long with a 6" drop at rest.
At 30deg of angle, you can get basically 1/2 of length as droop.
So my 42" shaft is good to 21" of droop (so hopefully I can squeeze a little more than 30deg - or the leaf springs will stop me before I bind the rear U-joints)
42" shaft at 15deg is 10.9" of droop. I'm actually around 19deg of angle at-rest right now.
Up front, with only 24", I'm looking at 12" of droop at 30-deg. That's about right for how I have things right now with the 10" short-body shocks.
Problem is a 4spd Atlas and the 23sp round adapter makes me ~34" rear and ~32" front.
The front is great!
But 34" to the rear, at 30-deg angle, is only 17" of droop. 3.5" beyond at-rest right now.
I need to measure - if I swing the pinion up I can make the angle less -but the driveshaft shorter.
Sort of rules out the long NV4500 with a long 4spd Atlas and a dinky 24" rear driveshaft. I would be beyond 30deg just at rest. (Nothing a pair of HP60s wouldn't fix.. )
I'm also thinking if I go this way, I might use a close ratio T19.
Right now I'm around 20:1 coming out of the 3.15 Dana 20 in low range (for 90:1 at the axles).
Wide box with a 10.34 is 65:1 at the rear output, or almost 300:1
Close ratio is 41.5:1 (more than double my current setup) and ~190:1 at the axle.
I'd get closer spaced gears, easier shifting (yes, for a T19).. and still be able to go half as fast as I can now.
In the meantime, I might add a spare rear output to my spares box.. :P
... so, looking up "how to break a Dana 20" and what do I stumble upon? A couple of old threads in here..
Transfercase Options for 36s
Funny how things have changed - and I find myself thinking a 4spd Atlas is a good buy now.
And I really think driveshaft length (and U-joint limits) are a deciding factor in all of this - same as when I was making plans for the racer. All the high-zoot stuff you want is limited by how much angle and how much length you have for a driveshaft... until I just mount a Tesla electric motor to the 14-bolt pinion housing..
I did find some other references to a Dana 20 girdle that bolts to the oil pan and the rear output housing and beefs things up. I haven't found one for sale yet.
I also found a deep billet aluminum oil pan (for a Dana 300, but I think it'd swap) that also may help a Dana 20 case stay together.
I have some aftermarket oil pan that's better than the stamped steel but short of that billet aluminum unit I found..
Edit - and one more GREAT thread from the BinderPlanet - makes it sound like I need to dig out one of my two 2wd T19s. One is an original wide-box, the other was converted to a close-ratio (someone else wanted to convert a 4x4 Scout II T19 from close to wide, and I thought having a close 2wd for the fullsize would be a good thing to have - until I got my T-35 instead and got to keep my granny gear AND the close ratio 4spd)
|02-05-2018 09:28 PM|
Alternator installed.. and it jumped to 15v after I started it.
I haven't driven it out of the shop yet..
There isn't a lot of room to wiggle the alternator any farther "out" before the case would hit the York mounting bolts.
Hard to get a good picture of the adjuster..
Unrelated to the alternator install, I had a helper for a little while - she didn't approve of the windshield's condition.
I tried to tell her it wouldn't matter - I drive with my eyes closed anyways (If you recall Tigger, you'd probably believe that) - but she did a great job. Even cleaned the inside of the windshield.
|01-30-2018 10:39 PM|
The alternator adjuster/tensioner wouldn't go - it was too long, and the curve hit the alternator and so forth.
My first thought was a jack-screw.
I even welded it up and painted it.
A square gets bolted to the lower AC bracket's mounting bolt.
A nut is welded to the square and the jackscrew passes through it and presses against the alternator body.
The screw didn't land wholly on the casting, so I even built a "foot" from a few inches of tubing and some flat-strap to try to make sure it stayed on the casting.
Then I had second thoughts, and I was researching turnbuckle assemblies instead - a 3/8 heim on either end with an adjuster.
I think it would work, but before I pulled the trigger on $30 worth of parts, I had one more thing to try.
I dug out a broken power steering pump bracket from the pile and remove the tensioner.
It didn't work "the right way" because again the adjuster slot hit the fins on the alternator casting and so forth.
But it doesn't have to go in that way, does it?
So I reversed it.
The single hole is on the alternator, and the slot is on the mount/engine bolt.
Just mocked up for the moment, but tomorrow I'll finish the install.
Then see if I get 14V and how happy everything might be..
|01-30-2018 10:32 PM|
I put a CS144 in the Scout a few years back.
I've also gone to an electric fan, dual heated seats, a 12v oven, the blanket for the kids - plus the FI and all of the radios.
I noticed when the alternator pigtail failed one day that the Scout would overheat because the voltage dropped and the fan output dropped.
I fixed it, but then sometimes noticed over the summer it would get hot on the trail for no good reason (just loafing along on a road).
I finally checked the voltage and found it fluctuates - sometimes 11v (yikes) other times 13.5 or so - but never 14+, almost never 13.8 even.
A little more research says that, because we have an ammeter (bypassed) and not an idiot light, I should have added a resistor into the wiring harness when I did the alternator swap.
Yeah, no resistor. Overall resistance was very low.
Some people claim low resistance will fry the voltage regulator on the CS144.
I bought a new conversion harness with a resistor, but it didn't really do much at this point.
So maybe my alternator is going to beat the Dana 20 to the grave.
So... the AD244 appears to be the top of, and end of, the line for alternators. After the AD244, GM went to computer controlled alternators - usually controlled by the ECM (or something like it) but sometimes with a stand-alone alternator controller (NOT an external voltage regulator..)
I haven't found any of those stand alone management units.
This all has something to do with fuel economy and regulating when the alternator makes power.
Anyhow, after the CS144 GM made the AD244 which is an ever so slightly upgraded version, physically the same size, but a smidge more bottom end power.
Mine claims a little more low-end and a little less top end. ~2amps worth more at the low end and less at the top end.
It still comes with a dynosheet claiming 178amps.
The CS144 went in nicely more or less but the AD244 needs a different adapter harness and the offset (not 12 & 6) mounting ear is a problem.
After I swapped pulleys out and compared with an old 10si from the stock pile.
Here is the CS144 installed.
Pigtail I needed
Notice that the connector (common with the early CS130D) looks a lot like a 4-pin MetriPak (and I have those and the crimper for them) but it has a couple of notches that are different and the clip is on the other side.
|01-30-2018 10:18 PM|
I'm currently running a CV up front, but the rear is a standard U-joint on both ends.
If I wind up running a rear CV I'll need to tip the pinion and that'll mean adjusting the ladder bar, but then one spare.
Perhaps a 4.0L manual TJ front driveshaft.
So, I'm on the prowl for an NV4500.
And maybe a 32-sp AA rear output kit (which will also require cutting down the rear driveshaft because it is 2" longer).
Before that it was at the last Divide Ride (with my old Scout), and going back a bit more I was there for the BFG Outstanding Trails presentation in.. 2008. I wheeled my "street" Scout that day. It was our first time using our new camper, and it snowed that Memorial Day and I ran out of propane.
I also found out that the plastic trailer receptacle I wired to the rear bumper didn't much like it when I used the rear bumper as a plow and shoved dirt into it..
OK, so I don't have an NV4500 in hand yet, but I do have some more tech..
|01-29-2018 07:43 PM|
|Lil_Chop19922||I'd say go cheaper route first. Wheel and slowly gather parts for the nv 4500 atlas combo. At the same time I did this I'd upgrade my front u joint to match the rear so one complete ds could be a spare and you wouldn't need an extra yoke. Just my .02|
|01-22-2018 09:36 PM|
That run was the reason we got the 40's for our scout. We couldn't make it and missed out on a good time. I spotted your scout in a few pictures that got shared on the book of faces.
That is a kick ass OHV area. We ran the 1st 3rd Kill Bill run last year.
|01-22-2018 11:17 AM|
|Harvester of Sorrow||
I would polish the turd for now...32spline upgrade for the rear of the Dana20. That would at least "buy you time" for upgrade round two.
If you are stuck on using a manual transmission, then yes I would vote for the NV4500. I would also look at a nice used 2sp Atlas.
|01-16-2018 08:49 PM|
And now a tech question, since Mike Kelly had to make me start thinking..
Build 392, wide T19, 3.15:1 Dana 20, 60/14-bolt, 4.56s, 42s.
Should I be planning the wake for my Dana 20?
If I'm running a 10-spline rear output shaft? Would a 26-spline make a difference?
Do I need to think about the 32sp upgrade (the highly polished turd route)?
I'm also kicking around a few other scenarios.
T19 adapted to 23-spline round pattern, and then I could run all sorts of things.
Or an AA/CPT NV4500 adapter and all sorts of transfercase options (aside from buying the NV4500, cost is about a wash between adapting a T19 to 23/round vs adapting the NV4500 to the IH and using the factory tailhousing from the 4500)
I think a single-speed Atlas behind a Dodge NV4500 with the IH adapter in front will roughly center the t'case.
If a stocker is ~24" front and 40" rear driveshafts, the 4500/Atlas would put me around 32/32 depending on how far apart the front and rear outputs are, and of course exactly where my 2" of extra front wheel base puts me, but I'd be very close to equal-length driveshafts (bonus, one spare).
That would let me get a little more front suspension travel (steering limits uptravel right now, and max U-joint angle limits droop).
Seems to rule out a 4spd Atlas.
5:1 low range would make low/OD just a little lower than 2nd gear high.
..and I could stop any worrying about whether the transfercase would hold up, and maybe it'd stop leaking.
T19 is 11.875 long with a 1" adapter and a 10.5" Dana 20.
The round adapter is 3.250 long
NV4500 is 12.375 long with a 6.25" adapter.
Assuming a 1" adapter plate between the NV4500 and the IH bell housing..
23.375" today from the rear of the bell to the rear output.
NV4500 and Atlas 2spd shorty is 31.425
Almost 8" longer.
(Round adapter T19 with Atlas is 26.925)
That takes the 24"-ish front to 32 and 40 rear to 32.
4spd would make that 37/25. Hmm.. I could maybe swap the front and rear driveshafts at that point, except for the 14-bolt yoke taking a larger U-joint.
I suppose the other thing to ponder, since the adapted T19 would save me 4.25" that almost makes up the difference between a 2spd and 4spd case.
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