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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-26-2018 10:49 AM
Landslide

https://youtu.be/LG4C2SQN_FI
07-12-2018 08:37 AM
ev13wt Socialism is coming, and it is good. We are our brothers keeper.

Paying taxes up front is cheaper and safer than cleaning up the shithole that happens otherwise.

Imagine what will happen with the AI revolution. Civil war.
07-12-2018 08:31 AM
Buck Wild Racing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johann View Post
Socialism only "works" when you get to tell EVERYONE what to do. States Rights impedes this so of course they are against it.
I'm not advocating socialism in any way but it can work in a small homogenous group. In Israel the kibbutz was socialism and a little communism and it worked basically as intended. But it relied on the Jewish work ethic and societal pressure.

Anyway it does work. What's sad is that these types of systems, even safety nets, completely fall apart when the society isn't homogenous. Liberals always point to Sweden, or Norway. But don't know why social safety nets work there. So these millions upon millions of tribal poor people the democrats are importing is making their utopia totally impossible to achieve.
07-11-2018 01:47 PM
CA_Snowtoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADChevy4x4 View Post
I have a Norwegian friend...He works for the oil industry and says he earns about 75K a year in US dollars...He has a wife who works also but earns less than him...He owns a small house, a newer SUV and many vintage motorcycles. Other than his house, everything is paid for...
I'm not saying Norway doesn't have high taxes but at the rates shown in the charts there would be no money for a paid newer car and a collection of mostly vintage motorcycles...So the charts might be like many other similar lists, the worst possible scenario and not usually the going rate... Just saying..
This is where the charts came from, the income tax rate is the highest rate paid, it was also the lowest rate I found, other sites had the rate as high as 62%.
https://tradingeconomics.com/norway/...ncome-tax-rate

According to this site https://www.nordisketax.net/main.asp...or/eng/i12.asp, after national taxes his $75k is about $4500/mo, not bad with another income to add to it.

However, the taxes don't stop at income,
-National wealth tax of 0.85% paid per year on net wealth above $182,750US
-Property tax between 0.2-0.7% of the assessed value which is between 20-50% of the market value
-Vehicle registration tax of 25% of the vehicle value, plus road tax
--8% of disposable income is spent on fuel costs
-Cost of living some the same as U.S., some a lot more, like gasoline at $7-8/ gallon and electricity rates.

He may have his suv and toys paid for, it is easy to do when you save up for things and buy them one at a time, rather than buying everything on credit because you have to have it now like most Americans do.

Quote:
And Norway has about 5 million people, what works or doesn't work there might have no bearing to a nation with 330 million people..
What they have going will only last as long as they have more producers than takers, which with a birth rate of 1.71 they cannot do, continue to have a positive trade balance, and don't actually have to build a military to defend themselves.
07-11-2018 07:25 AM
Johann
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Wild Racing View Post
I wish other liberals thought this through like you did. But the left nationally has been at absolute war with states rights. Even real socialism can work with a very small homogeneous group.
Socialism only "works" when you get to tell EVERYONE what to do. States Rights impedes this so of course they are against it.
07-11-2018 06:50 AM
Landslide
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
^^ Somebody pays WAY too much attention to thr "Sponsored Content" section of Fux NEWS.
You mad bro that you live in the wrong city to git ya sum?
07-11-2018 05:50 AM
wireman
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADChevy4x4 View Post
I'm not saying Norway doesn't have high taxes but at the rates shown in the charts there would be no money for a paid newer car and a collection of mostly vintage motorcycles...
When there are only 5 million people, and all the working-age people work, and are taxed at half their income, there is more money to re-distribute. If he made twice what he does, he would likely have almost the same things... and if he made half what he does, that would probably not make too much difference either. From each according to his ability..... and all that.

Bringing Iceland into this discussion is a joke. they only have about a 330,000 people.
07-11-2018 05:30 AM
ADChevy4x4
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA_Snowtoy View Post
Yep, they are the poster children for successful Socialism.


No matter how Socialism is practiced it will eventually consume more from the economy it operates under than that economy can produce, as no economy can ever meet the demands that socialism places on a society. This inability to meet the demands due to limited financial resources forces the government to become ever increasingly more authoritarian, and placing limits or restrictions on the very services that socialism is praised for. Ever wonder why the British government refused to allow the Italians to try and save the toddler Alfie Evans with an experimental procedure, because if he lived he would be a burden on the their healthcare system if he survived.


Not as bad tax wise, but not all that better




Might want to actually look at the data and not rely on your personal, as the saying goes, "it may be a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there".
I have a Norwegian friend...He works for the oil industry and says he earns about 75K a year in US dollars...He has a wife who works also but earns less than him...He owns a small house, a newer SUV and many vintage motorcycles. Other than his house, everything is paid for...
I'm not saying Norway doesn't have high taxes but at the rates shown in the charts there would be no money for a paid newer car and a collection of mostly vintage motorcycles...So the charts might be like many other similar lists, the worst possible scenario and not usually the going rate... Just saying..
And Norway has about 5 million people, what works or doesn't work there might have no bearing to a nation with 330 million people..
07-11-2018 12:18 AM
CA_Snowtoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
not at all.

its not an either or, its a continuum, with these countries tending towards more socially equitable outcomes. .
The Socialist "equitable outcome" is just another name for Marx's "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.", and like communism is doomed to fail due to the inherent inequality between humans.
07-10-2018 08:36 PM
Screwzer2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Landslide View Post
Kaliforina trying their hand at it. Git ya sum!

California's 'foreclosure capital' to give away $500 a month to residents in experimental welfare program

California's 'foreclosure capital' to give away $500 a month to residents in experimental welfare program | Fox News

Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at Apps and Products | Fox News.
^^ Somebody pays WAY too much attention to thr "Sponsored Content" section of Fux NEWS.
07-10-2018 02:43 PM
CA_Snowtoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
That, my friend, is an opinion, and not a fact.

Norway and Sweden seem to be doing fine.

Denmark has its issues, bu is doing as well as the U.S.
Yep, they are the poster children for successful Socialism.


No matter how Socialism is practiced it will eventually consume more from the economy it operates under than that economy can produce, as no economy can ever meet the demands that socialism places on a society. This inability to meet the demands due to limited financial resources forces the government to become ever increasingly more authoritarian, and placing limits or restrictions on the very services that socialism is praised for. Ever wonder why the British government refused to allow the Italians to try and save the toddler Alfie Evans with an experimental procedure, because if he lived he would be a burden on the their healthcare system if he survived.

Quote:
Iceland, which gave the to the world economies in the latest meltdown is kicking ass.
Not as bad tax wise, but not all that better


Quote:
Broaden your horizons, chief, beyond FOX news coverage.
Might want to actually look at the data and not rely on your personal, as the saying goes, "it may be a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there".
07-10-2018 11:08 AM
nahmus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel View Post
The reason why I excluded Venezuela is that there is still a lot of private ownership there, although that has been increasingly taken by the state.
Fixed that for you.

This line from the article posted to rebut screweys nordic socalist comment is IMHPO one of the best lines in the article and more people need to realize this
Quote:
It was not the government benefits that created wealth, but wealth that allowed the luxury of such generous government programs.
07-10-2018 10:00 AM
Provience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
Yep. Read that over the weekend. Good article.

...and while I spoke admiringly of Norway, etc., I recognize some of the issues that exist, and how that form of government is best done in smallish countries.

Applied in the U.S., I'd see this sort of government more appropriate for states vs. the feds to pursue (in the most general philosophical sense). It seems to me there's an appropriate scale, that would be pretty much defined by state borders.

States are far better equipped to maintain accountability (or lose in elections for lack of it) than our Federally elected representatives.

To a degree we have that, and I applaud efforts to move further towards states self-defining their cultures.

If West Virginia prefers low taxes and an ignorant population of opioid addicts, that's their call.

Likewise, if a state wishes to tax themselves into oblivion (New York), I'm sure other states will welcome their industries.

an anti-federalist in commie clothing? say it ain't so


come, comrade; join the fight against abusive and rampant federal growth!

https://www.lp.org/
07-10-2018 09:38 AM
Landslide
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
not at all.

its not an either or, its a continuum, with these countries tending towards more socially equitable outcomes. .
Kaliforina trying their hand at it. Git ya sum!

California's 'foreclosure capital' to give away $500 a month to residents in experimental welfare program

California's 'foreclosure capital' to give away $500 a month to residents in experimental welfare program | Fox News

Explore the Fox News apps that are right for you at Apps and Products | Fox News.
07-10-2018 09:18 AM
ADChevy4x4 I have several long term friends that are true liberals...They believe that equality and the gov't programs that support it are the true key to a balanced society..When I ask if they going to pay for all of it they say business and the wealthy need to be taxed at a higher rate to pay...
07-10-2018 09:05 AM
Joe_W
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Danger View Post
Equivalent suckage for all. Except for the leadership, of course.
all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
07-10-2018 09:01 AM
Dr.Danger
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJGreg5 View Post
smothers personal freedoms, property rights, and more. The idea is so contrary to the reason the US exists in the first place that it blows my mind anyone thinks its a viable goal.
Equivalent suckage for all. Except for the leadership, of course.
07-10-2018 08:54 AM
TJGreg5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
I don't know if its the most dangerous, but it's not to be desired. Just like tariffs, it stifles innovation.
smothers personal freedoms, property rights, and more. The idea is so contrary to the reason the US exists in the first place that it blows my mind anyone thinks its a viable goal.
07-10-2018 08:52 AM
Screwzer2
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJGreg5 View Post
Desire for equality of outcomes is arguably the most dangerous thing our nation faces.
I don't know if its the most dangerous, but it's not to be desired. Just like tariffs, it stifles innovation.
07-10-2018 08:48 AM
TJGreg5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
not at all.

its not an either or, its a continuum, with these countries tending towards more socially equitable outcomes. .
Desire for equality of outcomes is arguably the most dangerous thing our nation faces.
07-10-2018 08:42 AM
Screwzer2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Wild Racing View Post
I wish other liberals thought this through like you did. But the left nationally has been at absolute war with states rights. Even real socialism can work with a very small homogeneous group.
<sigh> I've tried with my liberal friends. They don't get it.

Example: As far as I know, there's been little objection to Romneycare in Mass, yet look at the furor over Obamacare.
07-10-2018 08:39 AM
Buck Wild Racing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
Yep. Read that over the weekend. Good article.

...and while I spoke admiringly of Norway, etc., I recognize some of the issues that exist, and how that form of government is best done in smallish countries.

Applied in the U.S., I'd see this sort of government more appropriate for states vs. the feds to pursue (in the most general philosophical sense). It seems to me there's an appropriate scale, that would be pretty much defined by state borders.

States are far better equipped to maintain accountability (or lose in elections for lack of it) than our Federally elected representatives.

To a degree we have that, and I applaud efforts to move further towards states self-defining their cultures.

If West Virginia prefers low taxes and an ignorant population of opioid addicts, that's their call.

Likewise, if a state wishes to tax themselves into oblivion (New York), I'm sure other states will welcome their industries.

I wish other liberals thought this through like you did. But the left nationally has been at absolute war with states rights. Even real socialism can work with a very small homogeneous group.
07-10-2018 08:38 AM
Screwzer2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel View Post
The reason why I excluded Venezuela is that there is still a lot of private ownership there, although that has been diminishing.
not at all.

its not an either or, its a continuum, with these countries tending towards more socially equitable outcomes. .
07-10-2018 08:36 AM
Mikel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuckntx View Post
Venezuela is a dictatorship under the guise of a socialist democracy. Fake elections and all. They DID have a somewhat market driven economy with private and foriegn owned businesses and some govt owned businesses but thats done now. The govt runs everything. Poorly as with everything else they do.
The reason why I excluded Venezuela is that there is still a lot of private ownership there, although that has been diminishing.
07-10-2018 08:25 AM
Joe_W
Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwzer2 View Post
Yep. Read that over the weekend. Good article.

...and while I spoke admiringly of Norway, etc., I recognize some of the issues that exist, and how that form of government is best done in smallish countries.

Applied in the U.S., I'd see this sort of government more appropriate for states vs. the feds to pursue (in the most general philosophical sense). It seems to me there's an appropriate scale, that would be pretty much defined by state borders.

States are far better equipped to maintain accountability (or lose in elections for lack of it) than our Federally elected representatives.

To a degree we have that, and I applaud efforts to move further towards states self-defining their cultures.

If West Virginia prefers low taxes and an ignorant population of opioid addicts, that's their call.

Likewise, if a state wishes to tax themselves into oblivion (New York), I'm sure other states will welcome their industries.

so you agree that your previous statement that Denmark, Norway and Sweden are socialist is incorrect?
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