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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-28-2019 08:18 AM
BioHazard2222
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
1.75" is fine for the upper and overkill for the pan hard. 1.25" or if you feel you need more strength 1.5". You can use 2"x.25" for the upper as it only cost you about $20 more then 1.75x1.20, they will add more then twice the weight though.

I would base end joints on overall travel and the amount of misalignment you need. Heims will give you more misalignment but you likely wont need it. They also can get noisy if things like that bother you. A basic Johnny joint should be enough unless your brackets are not welded on straight or you have massive travel. Synergy and Metal Cloak offer their joints as builder parts that give you the quiet, self centering, strong bushing you could put at the frame side and use a ball/socket joint at the axle. They both offer more misalignment then a typical bushing will have. The Metal Cloaks are softer and flex a bit easier then the synergy do. Cost on either is high when compared to a typical bushing that is offered by many companies.

I run the Metal Cloak joints at the frame end of my rig with a double triangulated rear and 3 link front and 18" travel shocks. I don't have any issues with binding from the joints. On the axle end I run ballistic forged, johnny joints, and 1 Heim.

Thanks DirtMan, Lots of good info
01-25-2019 08:40 AM
thedirtman 1.75" is fine for the upper and overkill for the pan hard. 1.25" or if you feel you need more strength 1.5". You can use 2"x.25" for the upper as it only cost you about $20 more then 1.75x1.20, they will add more then twice the weight though.

I would base end joints on overall travel and the amount of misalignment you need. Heims will give you more misalignment but you likely wont need it. They also can get noisy if things like that bother you. A basic Johnny joint should be enough unless your brackets are not welded on straight or you have massive travel. Synergy and Metal Cloak offer their joints as builder parts that give you the quiet, self centering, strong bushing you could put at the frame side and use a ball/socket joint at the axle. They both offer more misalignment then a typical bushing will have. The Metal Cloaks are softer and flex a bit easier then the synergy do. Cost on either is high when compared to a typical bushing that is offered by many companies.

I run the Metal Cloak joints at the frame end of my rig with a double triangulated rear and 3 link front and 18" travel shocks. I don't have any issues with binding from the joints. On the axle end I run ballistic forged, johnny joints, and 1 Heim.
01-25-2019 08:28 AM
BioHazard2222 Unless I can come up with a hydro system on a budget, it kinda sounds like I will go down the 3-Link path.
So if that is the case, for the 3-Links, it sounds like folks would recommend 2"x.25 DOM for lowers, and probably for the upper as well? and the panhard bar, like ?1.75"X.120 DOM? Flex joints of HEIMS everywhere? and avoid using bushings? That seem to be the consensus?
01-25-2019 07:50 AM
thedirtman Not really, just check your articulation. Tires until they hit and droop til you driveline binds then get the shocks that fit where you plan to put the mounts.
01-24-2019 10:03 PM
BioHazard2222
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
What size tires?
I'm planning on running just 37" Tires.

Also... Is there a magic number I should be thinking for shock length too? Or just get suspension built first and see how much articulation I end up with?
01-24-2019 09:05 PM
gt1guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioHazard2222 View Post
GT1Guy, thanks for the reply, I guess Im not dead set on steering box, but looking at hydro,it looks like $1500 and up to be set up unless I'm missing something.
If I'm trying to build this on somewhat of a budget, it seems like a 3-Link, panhard bar, crossover steering with a steering box would be the best bet, wouldn't it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
A three link with pan hard and conventional steering box will be the most cost effective way to go.
^^^^^This^^^^^

For your intended use......
Quote:
Not interested in doing super aggressive or high speed rock bouncing, more or less just exploring mild trails, desert, forest, etc, maybe even overland style stuff.
....the 3-link/panhard/ steering box would be the way to go.


What size tires?
01-24-2019 03:39 PM
thedirtman A three link with pan hard and conventional steering box will be the most cost effective way to go.
01-24-2019 03:37 PM
BioHazard2222
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
If you're dead set on running a steering box, as it sounds like you are, then the 3-link w/panhard would be your best bang for the buck. Or, you could still run a 4-link, you just wouldn't add the triangulation to the links. I'd go 3-link though.

As has been said, there are ways to run the double triangulated 4-link with a steering box, but it's much more involved and requires more moving parts. It doesn't sound like you're wanting to travel down that path though.

As far as link size goes between 3 and 4 links. Lowers would be the same, beefy enough for the vehicle to sit on them. I'd make the upper on a 3-link a bit stronger than what would be used for a 4-link because now you have one link taking the tension/compression forces as compared to two.
GT1Guy, thanks for the reply, I guess Im not dead set on steering box, but looking at hydro,it looks like $1500 and up to be set up unless I'm missing something.
If I'm trying to build this on somewhat of a budget, it seems like a 3-Link, panhard bar, crossover steering with a steering box would be the best bet, wouldn't it?
01-24-2019 11:09 AM
gt1guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioHazard2222 View Post
What it sounds like is I should re-consider the 4-link front and maybe go to a 3-Link with Panhard bar front and a Double Triangulated 4-Link for the rear? or switch the rear to 3-Link Also?

Looking further, it sounds like the 3-Link would solve the issue with bump steer using a standard gear box. That seem to address most of the issues talked about here?

Then the next question would be, on a 3-Link, what sort of link ends are people recommending? and tube diameters?

Thank you all again for your help

If you're dead set on running a steering box, as it sounds like you are, then the 3-link w/panhard would be your best bang for the buck. Or, you could still run a 4-link, you just wouldn't add the triangulation to the links. I'd go 3-link though.

As has been said, there are ways to run the double triangulated 4-link with a steering box, but it's much more involved and requires more moving parts. It doesn't sound like you're wanting to travel down that path though.

As far as link size goes between 3 and 4 links. Lowers would be the same, beefy enough for the vehicle to sit on them. I'd make the upper on a 3-link a bit stronger than what would be used for a 4-link because now you have one link taking the tension/compression forces as compared to two.
01-24-2019 05:46 AM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by 69DieselLover View Post
If you want to run a 4 link and a steering box , run a link from the box back to a bellcrank on the frame, at the frame end of the four link bar and run a link forward to the knuckle in a Chevy push pull arrangement. You would need a box with an arm that could be indexed to be perpendicular to the frame or hangs down and swings front to back like a semi truck box does. It would work just fine. I think hydro would be easier to do but this could get you where you want to be.
pete 359 style
01-23-2019 05:43 PM
TooLazy There's always Poison Spyder's mechanical steering.
01-22-2019 07:58 PM
3/4ton62gmc I have a YJ on tons, double triangulated 4 link front and rear. All heims are 1.25, 2x.250lowers and 1.75x.120 uppers. Full hydro and drive on the street with 42s actually drives better then did before with factory steering. Not my everyday driver but not afraid to drive on street I do inspect everything more then most.
01-22-2019 07:55 PM
69DieselLover If you want to run a 4 link and a steering box , run a link from the box back to a bellcrank on the frame, at the frame end of the four link bar and run a link forward to the knuckle in a Chevy push pull arrangement. You would need a box with an arm that could be indexed to be perpendicular to the frame or hangs down and swings front to back like a semi truck box does. It would work just fine. I think hydro would be easier to do but this could get you where you want to be.
01-22-2019 06:47 PM
DriverJC All it takes is a lot of reading, and a lot of phone calls to PSC or Howe to make it livable.

A good understanding of hydraulic theory doesn't hurt either. lol.

On the topic at hand. If you want a triangulated 4-link in front you most likely have to have Full Hydro Steering.
01-22-2019 06:30 PM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriverJC View Post
Check out this site. Is Full Hydraulic Steering legal

Several people on this site have Street Legal Vehicles that have Full Hydraulic Steering.


YMMV.
I wish those people would post more and help the rest of us figure out how to live with hydro
01-22-2019 05:52 PM
DriverJC Check out this site. Is Full Hydraulic Steering legal

Several people on this site have Street Legal Vehicles that have Full Hydraulic Steering.


YMMV.
01-22-2019 04:56 PM
thedirtman you can run the same links and ends as on a 4 link.
01-22-2019 03:29 PM
Byro
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
people have been trying to find that law for about 20 years, so far no one ever has.
Seriously. Itís like a damn urban legend. Brakes are hydraulic.

If you live in a place where you donít have inspections and things of that nature I wouldnít worry about it at all.
01-22-2019 03:17 PM
BioHazard2222 What it sounds like is I should re-consider the 4-link front and maybe go to a 3-Link with Panhard bar front and a Double Triangulated 4-Link for the rear? or switch the rear to 3-Link Also?

Looking further, it sounds like the 3-Link would solve the issue with bump steer using a standard gear box. That seem to address most of the issues talked about here?

Then the next question would be, on a 3-Link, what sort of link ends are people recommending? and tube diameters?

Thank you all again for your help
01-22-2019 08:53 AM
thedirtman
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioHazard2222 View Post
MJ,
So is it that 4-Links don't break strait in this situation? or that most don't have a hand brake?
I have converted my 14Bolt FF to Disk with a mechanical parking brake, wouldn't that take care of this issue?
When you brake hard your front suspension compresses (brake dive), the double triangulation keeps the axles centered under the frame. With the compression the drag link flattens out and forces the steering wheel to turn. AS this is happening the track bar is trying to push or pull one side of the axle putting more down pressure on one wheel while trying to lift the other creating uneven traction/braking.
01-22-2019 08:52 AM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by BioHazard2222 View Post
MJ,
So is it that 4-Links don't break strait in this situation? or that most don't have a hand brake?
I have converted my 14Bolt FF to Disk with a mechanical parking brake, wouldn't that take care of this issue?
the guy above posted the answer.
a crossover drag link travels in an arc, a double triangulated hold the dif centered throughout its travel
combine the two and you get a steering change during travel.

that is why everyone that runs a steering box will be directed to a three link with panhard, with the panhard and draglink same length and angles
01-22-2019 08:46 AM
thedirtman A conventional box requires a pan hard or track bar other wise the body and frame will move independently when steering. A pan hard with double triangulated is likely to result in ripping off the bracket or nasty bump steer.

The double triangulated 4 link keeps the axle centered thru out the suspension travel where the pan hard will pull or push the axle side to side. Running both causes the pan hard to rotate the axle during articulation. It will cause one side of the axle to drop and the other side to rise. This in turn will turn your steering wheel due to the drag link.
01-22-2019 08:22 AM
gt1guy Make your links as long as you can if you want to run a bushing at one end to reduce/avoid binding.

Genright did a double triangulated front that ran a steering box. Used a crazy linkage to get away form the bump steer.



I'm building a front double triangulated 4 like in my JK. Will be full hydro and driven on the street. Not worried about a law nobody can find, besides everything else I've done is technically illegal too.

Attachment 2916710

Attachment 2916712
01-22-2019 07:56 AM
BioHazard2222
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
to get rid of the bumpsteer you would have to make the drag link match a suspension link in length and angles.

the part of the code here that would make what you propose illegal is in the brakes section, you have to be able to do a hard brake application and remain traveling straight
MJ,
So is it that 4-Links don't break straight in this situation? or that most don't have a hand brake?
I have converted my 14Bolt FF to Disk with a mechanical parking brake, wouldn't that take care of this issue?
01-22-2019 07:24 AM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick & Dirty View Post
A quick search didn't turn up the actual law, but there has to be a mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the wheels. No purely hydraulic or electrical steering.

If you use a conventional steering box and drag link with a triangulated suspension, you will likely have bump steer. The axle needs to move in an arc that matches the motion of the drag link. Side steer may work better than cross steering, depending on the link geometry.
people have been trying to find that law for about 20 years, so far no one ever has.
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