Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum - Reply to Topic
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > General 4x4 Discussion > Correct order ?
Notices

Thread: Correct order ? Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
02-05-2019 08:02 PM
a1racer I run a basically stock 14 bolt with an arb and disc conversion was cheaper and better gearing selection then the ford 10.5 or 10.25 and it has been doing what it need to do with no issues so I got no complaints. You can find 14 bolts for free on a good day and axle shafts are plentiful in junk yards as well as hubs and any thing else needed.

I donít know enough about the ford stuff to talk shit so go with what ever one you can get and use it.
02-03-2019 03:23 PM
XJCracker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Danger View Post
Someone is buying them.

Out of curiosity, what was the motivator for doing it?
After 12 years of pounding at the hammers, the original welded open carrier gave way. A mini spool was the cheapest option but I figured a full spool, for only $60 more, would be lighter and I could add more fluid with the less space the fill spool takes up.

Oh.....I also run aluminum hubs on my 14b.
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gene...some-more.html

02-03-2019 12:10 PM
HankScorpi0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Danger View Post
Someone is buying them.

Out of curiosity, what was the motivator for doing it?



I haven't followed that competition in a long time but it is very cool to see guys think out of the box and make something run that isn't mainstream. John Kaase is one of my favorites and he's primarily focused on Fords, but can build anything he wants and rank in the top 3.

That competition is all about the little details. No magazine bench racing bullshit.
I am also running a spool in my 14 bolt. Reasoning is it came empty and an arb wasnt in the budget
02-03-2019 11:45 AM
Dr.Danger
Quote:
Originally Posted by XJCracker View Post
I run a spool in a 14b
Someone is buying them.

Out of curiosity, what was the motivator for doing it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
yes, I mean Engine Masters Challenge.
the one where an LS was constantly defeated.
this WAS a pure 'what engine is best' contest. they killed it of course as the results did not favour the advertisers or the LS.
I think near the end they had to give the LS its own class so it could win something, for 2019 it is call 'Extreme Street LS' class

the top teams would win just as much with whatever engine brand they stuffed in the chassis unless the rules makers started restricting engines to favour a brand. the top guys are all extremely driven people.
Does the #88 run a 14ff?
I haven't followed that competition in a long time but it is very cool to see guys think out of the box and make something run that isn't mainstream. John Kaase is one of my favorites and he's primarily focused on Fords, but can build anything he wants and rank in the top 3.

That competition is all about the little details. No magazine bench racing bullshit.
02-03-2019 08:54 AM
jr4x
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
Does the #88 run a 14ff?
RockJock 70's

And FWIW we race a Ford windsor based engine. We do ok with it.
02-03-2019 07:12 AM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
My bad, the letters EMC mean "every man challenge" to me especially since we're racing it in a couple days. The fantasy football of engine dorks isn't really on my radar.

The savvy rig I'm talking about is the 4500 car #88 and they run a 454 LSX in it (kicking our ass every time time it races). They've won the 4500 class 5 times with it, 13-14-15-16-18.
yes, I mean Engine Masters Challenge.
the one where an LS was constantly defeated.
this WAS a pure 'what engine is best' contest. they killed it of course as the results did not favour the advertisers or the LS.
I think near the end they had to give the LS its own class so it could win something, for 2019 it is call 'Extreme Street LS' class

the top teams would win just as much with whatever engine brand they stuffed in the chassis unless the rules makers started restricting engines to favour a brand. the top guys are all extremely driven people.
Does the #88 run a 14ff?
02-03-2019 06:15 AM
jr4x
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat95YJ View Post
1. That is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
2. You are talking about two different EMCís. He is talking about engine masters which has dick to do with KOH.
3. The savvy jeeps have to run stock engines. So this is mental masturbation
My bad, the letters EMC mean "every man challenge" to me especially since we're racing it in a couple days. The fantasy football of engine dorks isn't really on my radar.

The savvy rig I'm talking about is the 4500 car #88 and they run a 454 LSX in it (kicking our ass every time time it races). They've won the 4500 class 5 times with it, 13-14-15-16-18.
02-03-2019 03:20 AM
XJCracker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Danger View Post
Google "37 spline 10.5". Go ahead.

I have never purchased a spool for anything, but you're missing that the carriers themselves are not strong enough on those little axles. A Sterling carrier is beefy as hell and isn't what's going to break.

That doesn't explain why they make them for the 14 bolt or 60, but some people want to ditch the weight and buy shiny parts I guess. For wheeling, it makes no sense to buy one imo unless you just don't have a carrier with that free axle you got.

"No market" is the easiest explanation. You can find numerous posts about guys just welding them up on here. And again, with the 14 bolt mantra, nobody has bothered to make them. Nobody would buy them unless every mofo out there was using them. Who runs a spool in a 14 bolt anyway? Maybe pullers? Not really common in the wheeling world.

The hot money is on a 10.5 with a factory E locker. It does everything you'd want and needs no upgrades but whatever gear ratio you want. If 4.30s will do, some trucks get that factory.
I run a spool in a 14b
02-02-2019 07:50 PM
TrailTamer XJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseAutoElectric View Post
Strongest to weakest
Dana M300
AAM 11.5
Dana 80
Dana M275
AAM 10.5
10.5Ē 14 Bolt
Ford 10.5 (37 spline)
Dana Super 70
Dana 70
Dana Super 60
Dana 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corey Young View Post
Fixed
Fixed fixed.
02-01-2019 08:33 PM
Dr.Danger
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Rock View Post
The Monobeam 50 was never great in it's day nor now .

I have yet to figure out why it exists . Seriously .

The ONLY benefit of a 50 is no carrier break, but who the fawk would put tractor gears on a 50 ? In a toyota okay, something with low power ? Sure...


Tell me it was cost savings and I'll tell you that the extra design/engineering/casting/machine work needed to create the MB50 more than negates the savings .
I would love to question the guys who made the decision to build the thing. It does make very little sense. The TTB50 made sense. But why not a fucking 60 instead of monobeam 50? I mean it's already pretty much there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhorse View Post
The 8.8 gears and carrier maybe stronger, but the housing tubes are paper thin and the design of the wheel bearings are completely stupid. I hate to be a hater because I own a Bronco with a 8.8. (I installed a truss and ful-float kit to solve the problems)

I had 35's on a Scout on Dana 44s. Zero problems. Not so on the Bronco.

Funny thing is they are rated for more load than the 9", with the thinner tubes. I love them for cars, they hold a lot of power and are lightweight. I love me a 9", but the hot drag racing rear is an 8.8" with 9" outers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsylvaniaboy View Post
wow, I never thought I would see the day, that people would say Gm sucks and the 14 bolt sucks because it was used for so long and has aftermarket support......that like saying LS engines suck because they can be swapped into anything and had lots of support.......
Nobody is saying the 14 bolt sucks. We're arguing it's place on the totem pole. Well, MJ mentioned he wouldn't run any part of one, but I doubt even he will tell you it's a complete shit option. Many of us just think it's been surpassed as the top dog in it's category, and from me, by both the modern Ford AND GM offerings.

I'm also saying aftermarket beefier parts are not an indicator of it being better from the factory. Aftermarket or custom parts can improve any part from any make.

And:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
yes, the LS is the newest version of the SBF.
the only thing they fuked up on was the thermostat water flow, it is good that they kept the 351c head gaskets and water passages to allow for a dry manifold, but then they drilled it for steam holes??
it has to be embarrassing for all the chevy guys that chevy completely abandoned the sbc and built a sbf clone
Quote:
Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
The Modular family isn't popular for a reason. It's fucking massive. The V10 is as long as a 300 and wider than a 460. It would make an OBS F-series engine bay look small. The 6.2 is no better. OHC V8s don't get swapped into stuff because it's hell to swap into older vehicles whereas the LS fits into stuff easily. Because the Modular and 6.2 don't get swapped into stuff there is little aftermarket making it harder and more expensive to swap into stuff.

Ford also doesn't care as much about aftermarket as GM so they spend a lot less effort making stuff available to make things easy.

GM is definitely the McDonald's of the automotive world though. Cheap and readily available will overcome a lot of other flaws.
The LS engine was kept small and pushrod to fit in a Corvette. Ford has always had massive engine bays in Mustangs and they didn't really care. In many cases GM guys have entirely ditched their heavy cars for a lighter Ford, and Ford guys have entirely ditched their engines because the LS is what the Windsor would have been, had Ford not build that gigantic retarded 4.6 motor in the first place. My 460s are smaller and the one for my car is SBC weight.

Interestingly, Ford is going back to pushrod for their truck engines. The new 7.3 gasser should prove to be a drag strip favorite once they start ending up in the wrecking yards. There have been a few 6.2s, but take in mind, engines that aren't offered in performance cars have a harder time ending up on the drag strip. The Camaro and Mustang are what drove much of what you see now. I think the displacement factory will help this one along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
All the American Le Mans chevy's are running LS engines. They run with and beat the fancy euro cars.

As for NASCAR, I guess you've never heard of the RO7 chevy engine. No, it's not an LS, it's a race engine that's never been in a production vehicle, just like the Ford, Dodge and Toyota NASCAR engines.
To expand, when Toyota was given admission to run in NASCAR, they were given a clean sheet redesign. Everyone else said it's only fair if you give us one. The Ford, Mopar, and GM designs are really fantastic engines that I'd love to have in a production car. It's basically why I can't watch NASCAR. It has no bearing on reality, despite being "stock car" racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
Because everybody thinks the best bang for the buck is an LS engine. Even though the top 20 4400 LS cars now are all running engines that cost over $30K each and using LSX blocks that fix the top end priority oiling issue that plagues the stock ones.
Again, a lot of this is monkey see, monkey do. It's a lot easier to source parts for the engine that everyone else runs in a pinch.

LS isn't a bad engine, at all, but "the best?" Certainly not for everything. You gotta remember most guys with a wife and 2.5 kids and a mortgage are going to run what's easy and they can put together quickly with a lot of help. "Best" is exactly the same as "Cheapest" for a good chunk of potential buyers. This is actually why the 350 is still the most popular motor, despite the LS being so much better. At the top of motorsports, everyone is spending fuckloads of cash for whatever engine they run.

It does make me laugh how many chevy guys told me that Fords were too hard to work on and that's why they hated them in the 90s. Well, they are Ford of the 90s now, and they absolutely love it.

I just get bored seeing them personally and have always liked having something different. Well, that and they don't have the torque curve that a BBC or a BBF does. But, it's easy to see why they are the most popular engine in motorsports. They took the best of what everybody had, put aluminum heads on it, kept it as small as a 302, and gave it the capacity of 427 inches like all of the other small blocks from the big 3. Modern metallurgy didn't hurt either.

Most importantly... it's at the right age to be cheaply obtained. 2 decades now, most of which is very well documented.
02-01-2019 07:13 PM
gt1guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
oh I heard of it. thats the 2007 motor chevy got to run for a couple of years while fords were still limited by the rules to their OEM based engines, the fr9 was allowed to compete in 2009

can we drift further from the topic now or is this it.

chevy guys get all butt hurt when you say the 14ff and LS aint all that. amazing.
Sorry, thought the "?" meant you wanted an answer. BTW, the RO7 engines are still running, they just have FI now as per the rules.

Not butt hurt.
02-01-2019 02:40 PM
rockyota83
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat95YJ View Post
1. That is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
hes been on a role lately not just in this thread

the butt hurt 14b haters are hilarious
02-01-2019 02:32 PM
Beat95YJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
I wouldn't run an LS if it were free but the Savvy car has won the 4500 class in EMC I think 5 times.
1. That is the dumbest thing I have ever read.
2. You are talking about two different EMC’s. He is talking about engine masters which has dick to do with KOH.
3. The savvy jeeps have to run stock engines. So this is mental masturbation
02-01-2019 02:02 PM
jr4x
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsylvaniaboy View Post
.....This is insanity.....things dont dominate the market if they dont have merit....

...
Because everybody thinks the best bang for the buck is an LS engine. Even though the top 20 4400 LS cars now are all running engines that cost over $30K each and using LSX blocks that fix the top end priority oiling issue that plagues the stock ones.
02-01-2019 01:53 PM
jr4x
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
I cant recall an LS doing well in the entire history of EMC.

merit has nothing to do with popularity. never has
I wouldn't run an LS if it were free but the Savvy car has won the 4500 class in EMC I think 5 times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhorse View Post
But the Sterling will probably take over the market because disc brakes and VSS. As mentioned, the pattern matching the Superduty 60 is a big plus. In fact, the Super 60 and Sterling will probably be the "go to" diffs in the future if not allready. I believe Rockwells are becoming obsolete. If you want stronger than a Super 60, go Axletech.
And Yuge spindles/wheel bearings, with Yuge brakes. I'm out west in buggy land and know people running matched pairs of SD 60/SV10.25-.5's. You can pick up a complete pair for $600 bucks all the time while KP 60's which are not as strong still go for $1,000. The 05 up SD 60 is f#cking enormous though, and a PITA to cut the radius arm casting off the diff side.
02-01-2019 12:08 PM
waterhorse I'm not versed in the engines, but a Sterling is on a par with a 14 bolt for strength. The 14 bolt has been around forever, so the support is there. But the Sterling will probably take over the market because disc brakes and VSS. As mentioned, the pattern matching the Superduty 60 is a big plus. In fact, the Super 60 and Sterling will probably be the "go to" diffs in the future if not allready. I believe Rockwells are becoming obsolete. If you want stronger than a Super 60, go Axletech.
02-01-2019 12:02 PM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post

As for NASCAR, I guess you've never heard of the RO7 chevy engine. No, it's not an LS, it's a race engine that's never been in a production vehicle, just like the Ford, Dodge and Toyota NASCAR engines.
oh I heard of it. thats the 2007 motor chevy got to run for a couple of years while fords were still limited by the rules to their OEM based engines, the fr9 was allowed to compete in 2009

can we drift further from the topic now or is this it.

chevy guys get all butt hurt when you say the 14ff and LS aint all that. amazing.
02-01-2019 11:30 AM
gt1guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
what racing does chevy use the LS? nascar? nope. the biggest US small block race series doesnt use a chevy motor.
All the American Le Mans chevy's are running LS engines. They run with and beat the fancy euro cars.

As for NASCAR, I guess you've never heard of the RO7 chevy engine. No, it's not an LS, it's a race engine that's never been in a production vehicle, just like the Ford, Dodge and Toyota NASCAR engines.
02-01-2019 11:27 AM
arse_sidewards
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
the ford 6.2 motor with its factory 4.5 bore spacing and OHC should have a massive following, but it dont.
The Modular family isn't popular for a reason. It's fucking massive. The V10 is as long as a 300 and wider than a 460. It would make an OBS F-series engine bay look small. The 6.2 is no better. OHC V8s don't get swapped into stuff because it's hell to swap into older vehicles whereas the LS fits into stuff easily. Because the Modular and 6.2 don't get swapped into stuff there is little aftermarket making it harder and more expensive to swap into stuff.

Ford also doesn't care as much about aftermarket as GM so they spend a lot less effort making stuff available to make things easy.

GM is definitely the McDonald's of the automotive world though. Cheap and readily available will overcome a lot of other flaws.
02-01-2019 11:03 AM
mj
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsylvaniaboy View Post
.things dont dominate the market if they dont have merit.....
so McDonalds is the best tasting hamburger, the absolute best food ever then?

the SBC dominated the aftermarket so it was the best engine ever? as long as they make sure the fords are rules restricted what with it being beat by 351c in every motorsport.

the LS is better then any previous sbc. that part is very true.
why dont people use other then chevy stuff? that part has baffled me for a long time.
the ford 6.2 motor with its factory 4.5 bore spacing and OHC should have a massive following, but it dont.

having lots of something doesnt mean its the best.

what racing does chevy use the LS? nascar? nope. the biggest US small block race series doesnt use a chevy motor.

engine masters challenger let the mod motor in to play once, and the three mod motors finished 1 2 3 by a landslide. I cant recall an LS doing well in the entire history of EMC.

merit has nothing to do with popularity. never has
02-01-2019 10:46 AM
Elvis38 Brand loyalty fags are a comedic group.
02-01-2019 10:38 AM
pennsylvaniaboy
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj View Post
ford guys have been saying that for decades
so why arent everyone swapping in coyote engines, or mod engines, or hemi motors? I cant tell you the last time I saw someone swap a 5.4/10/4r100.....but people swap a 6.0/4l80 all day long....


In KOH.....why is the LS the dominant motor platform......This is insanity.....things dont dominate the market if they dont have merit....

I will say, I would run a sterling 10.5 just as soon as I would run a 14bolt....esp if I had a super duty 60....i would not go out of my way to change bolt patterns from 8x170 to run a 14 bolt.

But I also have never seen someone make a sterling front axle, or 11.5 front axle.....dana 80/14 bolt rule that......for good reason IMO...
02-01-2019 10:30 AM
mj yes, the LS is the newest version of the SBF.
the only thing they fuked up on was the thermostat water flow, it is good that they kept the 351c head gaskets and water passages to allow for a dry manifold, but then they drilled it for steam holes??
it has to be embarrassing for all the chevy guys that chevy completely abandoned the sbc and built a sbf clone
02-01-2019 10:03 AM
arse_sidewards
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsylvaniaboy View Post
wow, I never thought I would see the day, that people would say Gm sucks and the 14 bolt sucks because it was used for so long and has aftermarket support......that like saying LS engines suck because they can be swapped into anything and had lots of support.......
The SBC legitimately sucks and its only redeeming quality is support. The LS is a superior product and can actually stand on its own merits.

The 14b is in the middle. It's a good solid axle but it does nothing that makes it obviously superior to other axles of similar size, weight and price.
02-01-2019 09:57 AM
jr4x
Quote:
Originally Posted by pennsylvaniaboy View Post
wow, I never thought I would see the day, that people would say Gm sucks and the 14 bolt sucks because it was used for so long and has aftermarket support......that like saying LS engines suck because they can be swapped into anything and had lots of support.......
I do say that, all of that. Those things have the support, that is the only good thing about them.
This thread has more than 25 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.