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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-13-2019 11:13 AM
l3lue Jr4x thank you for posting this information. I'm modifing my trail 04 Tj to run Xrock Modstock next year you originally recommended a manual chevy box. But it looks like you have since figured out that that might cause shaking issues. With me not running high speed comps and occasionally running on the street would you recomend doing the 700 dollar modified servo, or modify my current Psc assist box. Also is there someone i can send my box off to to get the correct modifications done?


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07-07-2019 09:48 PM
Fwjeep Yes I am.
That’s for another post
07-07-2019 08:28 PM
Tyler76010 Are you doing anything to negate pressure still being applied to the piston inside the box?


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07-07-2019 09:48 AM
rodslinger Ol
07-06-2019 02:05 PM
gtxracer Part 3 (final)

And weld a fitting to the servo housing for Ďleftí turn. Of course, you will need to drill the hole, 1/4 inch or bigger, depends what you can fit between the seals without getting into the seal area. That box has a hydro fitting cut down and welded. Your going to want too reduce the heat/weld as much as possible. Warping the servo housing is a serious problem. I have gotten away with some, but other boxes seals will fail and leak. Reduce the weld area from what Iíve shown here . This is where pscís box has good Benefits as itís cast larger here, and threaded fitting inserted.
I also spent time drilling the port, to the vein along the bottom of the box. Itís difficult to drill, and Iím guessing of limited benefit.


07-06-2019 02:04 PM
gtxracer Part 2

The bottom one is not something thatís been a problem, not much restriction




However, the one on the top can be improved.
Remove 1/3 to 1/2 the crests



This double the flow



It may not seem nessary, but this is low pressure return flow, and gains here have huge effects.

-torsion bar needs to be matched to your systems resistance. Core boxes can have many different sizes. Mark the input shaft before you take it apart. It will only work assembled one way. Any other way the box will not be centered, and turn one way as soon as pressure is applied.




These torsion bars can be turned down in lathe. Iíve seen .220 to .175 in factory boxes. The thinner this easily, the easier the steering feel will be.

This end comes factory just press fit.



Weld it. Why not. Label the end with torsion bar size so you never need to take apart again.



All these mods apply to the servo, which is the same in both the external servos, and steering boxes.

Mods to the steering box
-drill the input to the biggest you can fit between the seals. Deburr after. This gets rid of the check valve in the inlet. Run an external pressure relief valve (Howe/psc)



And drill the return as well. This can be made quite a bit bigger



Drill the Ďrightí turn into the usual spot for Saginaw, tapped to 3/8 npt

07-06-2019 01:55 PM
gtxracer Fred (fwjeep) asked me to post these for him. I am doing the same mods he has been doing so he saved me quite a bit of time even though I had spent about 100 hours on this project. He has about 1000 or more into it so I'm very glad he shared this info. Hopefully it saves time for others too. I'll split this into at least two posts.

_________________________________________________

Gotten a few questions about modifications to Saginaw steering boxes for high flow.
Been running these mods, supporting a 2.5x1.5 double ended ram, with psc 1400 pump (4.5gpm?) and no lag.
Not meaning to show how to rebuild a box, just the high flowing of it.
Take your servo and drill the left and right turn 1/16th ports to 1/8. The first 3/4 of it will be in soft steel, the last bit is through a pressed in hardened race, and carbide is the best option. (A sharped concrete drill will work in a pinch)





-this needs to be carefully deburred after. I use a grinding stone on a dremmel. Keep going at it until the inner part of the servo fits smoothly and 360* turns. Donít let the holes get to big; reaching the void between them.





The inlet pressure holes (middle ones) are big enough already.

Iíve seen two styles of inner races. Some with 4 holes for return flow, others with 8
The cross sectional area of both are the same, no need for mods here.






The next most restrictive point is when the return flow travel along the input shaft to the front of the servo. I donít have a picture of a stock piece here.



This one has been lathed to remove material behind the seal position. So splines-seal surface-piece to be turned down. Itís the area that is in the inner race of the servo. The picture below shows the finished piece. You can notice the reduction of the input shaft, as it goes into the servo. It maintains this diameter right through. After the holes drilled in the servo, this area is the biggest restriction in the box.




Once the fluid comes out of the servo housing(along the shaft) it must exit radially through what Iím calling the seal head. I have seen two different styles in the factory boxes. The left style I have found in factory Jeep Cherokee boxes, the right found in a late model Chevy.

06-12-2019 07:24 PM
cj8_mustang_68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fwjeep View Post
Yes I have an Toyota ifs box that I am using in this manner.
I am using the servo thatís in the Toyota box, welded -6 fitting right to the servo housing, (left turn) and tapped a set screw into the vein on top of the box. Right turn -6 fitting on the typical place. Piston has cuts to remove the pressure differential.
I turned the torsion spring down to .200, and drilled every orfice in the box possible.
The Toyota boxes have hardened shaft and servo.
I have also done the same to Saginaw boxes, and while also hardened material, itís much easier to modify. I recommend using a Saginaw box, or a jk/wj box
Awesome. Do you have pictures of how you did the modifications?
06-12-2019 01:30 PM
Fwjeep Yes I have an Toyota ifs box that I am using in this manner.
I am using the servo that’s in the Toyota box, welded -6 fitting right to the servo housing, (left turn) and tapped a set screw into the vein on top of the box. Right turn -6 fitting on the typical place. Piston has cuts to remove the pressure differential.
I turned the torsion spring down to .200, and drilled every orfice in the box possible.
The Toyota boxes have hardened shaft and servo.
I have also done the same to Saginaw boxes, and while also hardened material, it’s much easier to modify. I recommend using a Saginaw box, or a jk/wj box
06-12-2019 09:57 AM
weinowei
4500 vs 4800

Thank you, this is really good info! I was looking to build a 4800 over a 4500 because of the no full hydro steering rule. Thanks
06-12-2019 09:55 AM
weinowei
4500 vs 4800

Wow, this is really good info. I was looking to build a class4800 over a class4500 because of the hydro steering rule. But this is good info!!
06-09-2019 09:38 PM
cj8_mustang_68 Did anyone ever get a IFS Toyota box to work? I'm trying to plan out my steering for my 67 Commando I'm building and I am really interested in doing this same set up. I'd run all the parts suggested. I have a 5.3 which is about the only thing other than the Toyota box that I'm pretty set on.

Thanks a ton for the help.
04-21-2019 02:03 AM
Ringer
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottm View Post
Jr have you tried these KRC race pumps? pricey, but adjustable output and trick..



https://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/a...3-29116811.asp


I have used them on a few builds. Worked great.
04-18-2019 04:30 PM
scottm Jr have you tried these KRC race pumps? pricey, but adjustable output and trick..

https://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/a...3-29116811.asp
03-19-2019 11:14 PM
wildman4x4nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
What rig do you intend to build up? For most steering box applications there is an option to bolt on a a box that the pitman points forward instead of back. Like for a jeep CJ/YJ/TJ/XJ a chevy astro van box is a direct bolt on and allows you to move the front end forward without moving the box location.
jrx4,
Sorry it is a 97 TJ. I need to look at the Astro box more. I thought I had read it was for going 6" or more forward and I'm not sure I want to go that far.

My Jeep is a little different and there are some things I am trying to keep becasue of an injury. I have the Off-Road Only AiRock kit on my Jeep. It has air bags in place of the springs and is rated as a 6" lift. I'm a right lower leg amputee and being able to lower the Jeep down to get into and out of it really helps. So I have to keep stock type coil spring mounts.

What you came up with is very interesting and I liked reading the thread just for the tech. It might be something I do to my Jeep at some point. Good luck with the rest of the racing season.
03-19-2019 07:01 AM
jr4x
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildman4x4nut View Post
Well as many others have said I have read and reread this thread 3 times to try and make sure I am understanding everything.

I'm more interested in this application for a trail/street rig. I'm not racing or anything just trying to build a bulletproof rig. Since I have never broken any steering parts other than a few hoses I don't know if this applies to me. I started reading it for the possibilities of a way to be able to push my front axle forward without having to go full hydro. But since there is still a draglink it doesn't help.

So if anyone has any input into my application I'd love to hear it. I like the idea of this and like even more the fact that it wouldn't have to worry about my thumbs getting broken or the steering wheel whipped out of my hands.
What rig do you intend to build up? For most steering box applications there is an option to bolt on a a box that the pitman points forward instead of back. Like for a jeep CJ/YJ/TJ/XJ a chevy astro van box is a direct bolt on and allows you to move the front end forward without moving the box location.
03-19-2019 06:49 AM
wildman4x4nut Well as many others have said I have read and reread this thread 3 times to try and make sure I am understanding everything.

I'm more interested in this application for a trail/street rig. I'm not racing or anything just trying to build a bulletproof rig. Since I have never broken any steering parts other than a few hoses I don't know if this applies to me. I started reading it for the possibilities of a way to be able to push my front axle forward without having to go full hydro. But since there is still a draglink it doesn't help.

So if anyone has any input into my application I'd love to hear it. I like the idea of this and like even more the fact that it wouldn't have to worry about my thumbs getting broken or the steering wheel whipped out of my hands.
02-22-2019 09:18 AM
wvracer821
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbuff02 View Post
The Scout 2 box is a forward swing pitman arm like the astrovan.

Another option is the 2005+ superduty box. They have a front facing pitman arm and are massive all around.



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02-22-2019 09:13 AM
91blaze
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
What rig are you putting It on? Suspension type? Ultimate goal, trail rig? Race rig? DD?
If we are building around good steering - with a steering box to meet these rules and/or maybe to help with legalities and safety of street driving while having an good steering offroad vehicle

Personally I have a JKU frame and some 1 ton axles and just want it to steer good on and off road. my full hydro on a buggy is great but might be more than the wife wants to daily

ie - what's the best box to use - strength/packaging/ratio

then is there anything suspension/link wise that would be recommended? 4 link, 3 link, watts link, crazy swingset stuff - also with KISS in mind.

thanks for sharing your knowledge! need more of it around here
02-21-2019 11:45 AM
gtxracer
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbuff02 View Post
The Scout 2 box is a forward swing pitman arm like the astrovan.
Yeah you're right, sorry didn't notice you're running Scout II.
02-21-2019 10:54 AM
tbuff02
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxracer View Post
You can use the guts from the Astro box in a behind-the-box application. The box would turn the opposite direction since the worm gear and piston are in the opposite direction. You need the guts from a quick ratio box that shares the same pitman arm orientation.

Good idea on taking the cap off.
The Scout 2 box is a forward swing pitman arm like the astrovan.
02-20-2019 07:51 PM
Mac5005
The 4500 steering that won a national points Championship

If Iím following along correctly:

Iím currently running an Astro van box, matched custom Pittman arm to 60 hi steer arm length.

1.75ĒSE ram.

Drilled and spring modded stock tc style yj pump. Big huge cooler and filter.

Planning for a redo of the front and want to fix the steering at the same time.

I need more power in high load slow speed, and quicker reaction at higher speed stuff.

I can do a scout 2 box, to get it outside the frame rail and still have forward swing?

If sourced from PSC , it will be quicker than a stock replacement scout 2 box?
Or

Put Astro van internals in scout box?

Iím currently drilled and tapped in the regular diy Saginaw location.

If I do the free float piston to the scout box with Astro internals, add the sweet servo, and swap to a double ended ram or larger SE ram, that would be a good start?

Thinking about one of Scott trimarcos gear pumps with external relief.

Any specific posts or threads to find that detail the free float piston mod, and welding the torsion bar in the scout/Astro box to turn it into a ďmanualĒ box?

Running leafs now, but going to a 3 link with panhard, and cutting the front frame off.

Application is trail jeep on stickies with some prerunning on the lakebed, with some street/beach time in the summer.

Thanks in advance.
02-20-2019 03:27 PM
the-t-man
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
I've started and deleted several replies today. I have learned a lot more about this stuff the last year. Have helped some, and let down some. I need to re-connect with the_T_man and see what we can do.

In the past I've tried to be pretty passive about "helping" because I'm not a race shop and I don't sell parts. That was until I directed a friend to talk to AGR steerco for a second opinion on steering solutions. Just last week Beverly Croy had a surgery on a shattered wrist sustained at KOH from the junk he convinced them was the solution to their problem. She hit something minor in her 4500 car pre running and it snapped her wrist because the wheels turn the steering wheel, not the other way around.

I feel terrible because I didn't have time to help them with our solution, which as long as the hydraulic system is intact cannot rip the wheel out of your hand. So I'm hesitant to help at the current time. At the same time, I did help Duane Garretson who has the very first jimmy's 4x4 4500 car. It is 4 linked with a bell crank setup and the steering box is right in front of the drivers feet. He also had one of the first PSC 4500 steering kits that didn't work and has since been pulled from their product line. With it he had the pulsation/oscillation and it was unfix able with the parts he was sold. Still following PSC's advice he removed it and went back to a regular ram assist setup and went back to breaking steering boxes every race. He got sick of that and contacted me to help him out. I built him two gear boxes myself and had him send the servo back to sweet to un PSC it. Those two changes alone fixed the tire shaking issue. Why is that? The only thing I can think is that the servo and pump we are using are meant to be a quick ratio setup. There are no quick ratio manual gearboxes that we've found (and I'm not looking for them). The typical 24:1 manual gear box is to slow and the hydraulic side must out run it in both directions causing the shaking.

Our team just built and raced a brand new 4500 car with a new Howe servo setup like we ran in the old car. Shawn drove it to 5th in class and 24th overall in it's first EMC. I drove it 70 mph in the big whoops out at Johnson valley and it is an absolute pleasure cruise to steer. There are no shaking/oscillation/pulsation issues with our recipe which takes custom box work to make possible. A quickner doesn't solve any problems, it only creates more. So in time it has turned out that one cannot re create our success and cheapen the parts list at the same time. It takes what it takes, anything less results in blown money on a tire shaker.

If you look close you can see the steering box and the servo in this pic
Hey yea didnt get to chat with you at KOH this year , we did race , did finish , did have a slight mishap with our box the cap came loose or 4 bolts Im assuming some bumpsteer , after not much luck connecting with you we tried various different configurations again , we modded some boxes like you as that was really the only difference in our steering set up to yours it didnt do the trick . but we are a bellcrank set up like Duane Garretson's car not like yours I think the ratio's are not correct in how they were originally set up . we changed the box and made it a powered box , got rid of the sweet valve and kept the rest I guess now we are just a fancy hydro assist set up lol ... it worked 500% better than last year is it correct now ? probably not were we sick of chasing ourselves in circles yes !!!! it did feel great driving it and not having that ridiculous chatter , for time being we are going to safety the cap bolts , hopefully race the rig a bit this year and when we have more time we will dive into it again ...
02-20-2019 03:15 PM
gtxracer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robe View Post
I6 or V8 Grands? Doesnt matter?
Still researching but so far no actual tech to give me a real answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbuff02 View Post
That's the info I was looking for. Thanks. I know the scout box is a saginaw unit. Been trying to figure out if there are guts from another box that would work, but didn't think the astrovan box would. I'll run over to the junkyard and grab a steering box out of an astrovan and see if we can make a box. I understand about modifying the box. We did all that to "eliminate" the torsion bar in the servo attached to the box. We took a slightly different route for free floating the piston and took the cap off the front of the piston so oil can just flow through.
You can use the guts from the Astro box in a behind-the-box application. The box would turn the opposite direction since the worm gear and piston are in the opposite direction. You need the guts from a quick ratio box that shares the same pitman arm orientation.

Good idea on taking the cap off.
02-20-2019 03:02 PM
tbuff02
Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4x View Post
2 1/4 turns lock to lock. Basically 1 turn either way from center. The pitman points forward so the rig has a 7 1/2" center of shaft to center of hole pitman. We're modifying "3 turn" ram assist boxes that we get from PSC. They don't list the scout box on the website but if you call they have them.

A scout box is still a Saginaw box. I believe that PSC is putting the quick ratio piston and worm gear from an astro van box in them to speed them up. Then we're free floating the piston and welding up the torsion part if the spool valve in them. It sounds like a long way to go to get a fast ratio box but it's been serving us pretty well.
That's the info I was looking for. Thanks. I know the scout box is a saginaw unit. Been trying to figure out if there are guts from another box that would work, but didn't think the astrovan box would. I'll run over to the junkyard and grab a steering box out of an astrovan and see if we can make a box. I understand about modifying the box. We did all that to "eliminate" the torsion bar in the servo attached to the box. We took a slightly different route for free floating the piston and took the cap off the front of the piston so oil can just flow through.
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