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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-06-2019 09:01 AM
DiscoDino Just received my 5,000lbs ring from Custom Splice.

It's TINY...so let's hope it works...finishing isn't great with some blemished.

Waiting on my larger one soon.

Let's hope the blemishes aren't there...

Nadim
10-06-2019 07:55 AM
[486]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
The first one has the opposite of the intended effect which is not wearing the winch line and it is running over a smaller radius which if given a choice, should always be larger. The rope loop is also being highly stressed at the cinch point.
if it is rolling on the winch line and sliding on the shackle, it is sliding all in one spot on the shackle's rope, where if it is sliding on the winch line the heat goes into the length of the winch line

or at least that's my take on it
10-05-2019 10:09 AM
Mieser
Quote:
Originally Posted by KacksterK5 View Post
Seems silly to spend all that money when they already make them for 1/4 of the price...

https://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=7383

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/antal...gs--P014018253
Those are pretty small rings when you start running the numbers. Bend radius is kinda small and the load ratings are a little shy of what we want to see. The best value I have found is the All-Gear unit from the Arborist world. They are about $50-60 shipped. 22K working load, over 100K MBS. The bend radius is pretty decent for 3/8 winch line.
10-05-2019 10:05 AM
Mieser
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post

The reason normal snatch blocks are the size that they are is to keep the rope in the basket rating of a load chart. When the diameter gets below a certain point.......it's considered a choker, and the load rating gets cut way down...........like in half for a strap. Reason being, is that only the fibers on the outboard side are in tension, the inboard side (touching) are bunched up and not in tension they're just along for the ride.
The recommended bend radius on wire rope is a bit larger typically than synthetic products. I'd like to see 8x rope diameter for a ring, but most off the shelf units fall a little short. Unless you are using your snatch block full time every time, I don't think it is a huge negative. The bend radius we see over common aluminum hawses are WAY worse ( the same goes for roller flairleads too with cable ).
10-04-2019 09:13 PM
rapier46 I have the ones from Red Winches and they work well.
10-04-2019 05:37 PM
Gwagensteve I think this thread hasn't addressed why these rings are being used in a 4X4 application.

Like the first applications of synthetic rope, they came into the market due to competition winch events, where weight is critical not because of concern about the weight of the vehicle, but because the navigator has to run/swim/climb to the winch point and then set it up recovery as quickly as possible. Wear, long term durability etc is of secondary importance.

Conventional snatch blocks are fiddly to set up when you're on the clock, slipping down a hill, wet and tired.

The US basically doesn't have these kind of events at all, so a little time or weight saved might be of little consequence, but they're fairly common in Europe, Asia, Australia and NZ.

Personally, I don't understand the point of competition winching at all, but I'm happy to take advantage of the parts that have filtered down to recreational users, where, for example, I can save weight on a light vehicle, carry more versatile equipment etc.

Personally I think these rings are a great idea compared to a conventional snatch block. Are they for everyone? No, of course not. That's true of every part in the marketplace.
10-03-2019 12:41 PM
KacksterK5
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
You can always use a non-screw pin type shackle.

Once the flange on a screw pin shackle bottoms out, it can't get a whole lot tighter. Nothing a screw driver in the hole or a crescent wrench can't fix.

Rigging up anything where the screw pin would back out is a rigging 101 fail.



Something that I've noticed on some of these ring snatch blocks, is that they are very small.
The reason normal snatch blocks are the size that they are is to keep the rope in the basket rating of a load chart. When the diameter gets below a certain point.......it's considered a choker, and the load rating gets cut way down...........like in half for a strap. Reason being, is that only the fibers on the outboard side are in tension, the inboard side (touching) are bunched up and not in tension they're just along for the ride.

Has there been any actual testing to failure with a load cell on these things? Not saying the rings themselves failing, but the loads the rope will fail at.

Yes, the sailing ones are tested and have a safe working load 40-50% less than breaking strength. Working loads on these are higher than the soft shackles they are connected with.

Keep in mind that Dyneema winchline as well as other material lines are rated at average breaking strength. Strength of a soft shackle depends on the type of knot (button knot is strongest) and the bend radius of the eye. The soft shackle when tied properly is about 110% of theoretical break strength of the line. Any 20mm lead ring is going to be more than adequate for recovery operations.
10-03-2019 12:12 PM
KacksterK5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mieser View Post
The 5 ton unit is a very small unit used for ATV/UTV stuff with about 1/4" line. Regular price is $75. The 10 ton unit would be better for a 'jeep' sized vehicle and about 3/8" line. It is $99 normal price.
Seems silly to spend all that money when they already make them for 1/4 of the price...

https://www.harken.com/productcategory.aspx?taxid=7383

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/antal...gs--P014018253
10-03-2019 11:04 AM
ZAG had a lump of al rolling in my floor so i made one and took old winch rope and tied soft shackle for it.
my steel snatch block weights 11lbs with shackle.
this is 1lbs with rope shackle








10-03-2019 10:07 AM
gt1guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchitpitchit View Post
But if you had the pull going the wrong direction it could un-screw the shackle pin. That would suck. (other direction would make that pin really tight)
You can always use a non-screw pin type shackle.

Once the flange on a screw pin shackle bottoms out, it can't get a whole lot tighter. Nothing a screw driver in the hole or a crescent wrench can't fix.

Rigging up anything where the screw pin would back out is a rigging 101 fail.



Something that I've noticed on some of these ring snatch blocks, is that they are very small.
The reason normal snatch blocks are the size that they are is to keep the rope in the basket rating of a load chart. When the diameter gets below a certain point.......it's considered a choker, and the load rating gets cut way down...........like in half for a strap. Reason being, is that only the fibers on the outboard side are in tension, the inboard side (touching) are bunched up and not in tension they're just along for the ride.

Has there been any actual testing to failure with a load cell on these things? Not saying the rings themselves failing, but the loads the rope will fail at.
10-02-2019 06:39 PM
Mieser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beat95YJ View Post
Currently custom splice sells the 5 ton for $40. I think that is an introductory price however.

https://customsplice.com/collections...september-25th
The 5 ton unit is a very small unit used for ATV/UTV stuff with about 1/4" line. Regular price is $75. The 10 ton unit would be better for a 'jeep' sized vehicle and about 3/8" line. It is $99 normal price.
10-02-2019 06:37 PM
Mieser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwenil View Post
So I am still money ahead with my $150 3/8" wire rope and $60 chinkanese snatch block.
....but then you still have wire rope and a chinkanese snatch block....
10-02-2019 05:07 PM
mrblaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchitpitchit View Post
But if you had the pull going the wrong direction it could un-screw the shackle pin. That would suck. (other direction would make that pin really tight)
Use the bow shackle that doesn't have a threaded pin.
https://www.rsis.co.uk/lifting-equip...-en13889-p9162
10-02-2019 02:16 PM
pitchitpitchit
Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
Take that fancy little thing and bore out the center to fit over a shackle pin. Poof, now it rotates and any shackle can now be a snatch block too.

But if you had the pull going the wrong direction it could un-screw the shackle pin. That would suck. (other direction would make that pin really tight)
10-02-2019 10:11 AM
jetboy Typical price from most sail rigging supply shops is $40-60.
https://www.knotandrope.com/products...21648405299248

https://www.atlanticriggingsupply.com/ty3rife.html

Also FWIW: Dyneema soft shackles premade for $20.
https://shop.hamiltonmarine.com/prod...hoCSVUQAvD_BwE
10-02-2019 09:48 AM
Elwenil So I am still money ahead with my $150 3/8" wire rope and $60 chinkanese snatch block.
10-02-2019 08:02 AM
Beat95YJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwenil View Post
Ok, next question, what is the cost and how does it compare to a normal snatch block?
Currently custom splice sells the 5 ton for $40. I think that is an introductory price however.

https://customsplice.com/collections...september-25th
10-02-2019 07:34 AM
Mieser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elwenil View Post
Ok, next question, what is the cost and how does it compare to a normal snatch block?
It varies a lot by manufacturer. I have seen rings from Europe going for well over 100-150 alone. I believe the other US options are approaching that also.

The package I have been putting together is 90 total which includes the aluminum ring, soft shackle, anti-flip block, a storage case, and shipping.
10-02-2019 04:04 AM
Elwenil Ok, next question, what is the cost and how does it compare to a normal snatch block?
10-01-2019 10:58 PM
rockyota83 pretty much what i figured
10-01-2019 09:34 PM
Provience dope, thanks for clarifying a bunch of info
10-01-2019 09:27 PM
Mieser Hi everyone, I finally got a bit of free time to pop in this thread. Frank let me know it was happening.

I started experimenting with this concept about 2 years ago now. As some have mentioned, this idea is not really 'new', as it has been fairly common in the marine sport sailing and arborist world with synthetic lines.

I'll hit a few high points from the thread....

-Heat. I've tried to warm them up doing full pulls with my 8274. It isn't a hot rod winch, but it has been a non-issue thus far. I'm not sure how many people are speed-winching with comp level winches while double lining for multiple pulls. For me, it has been a non issue. I haven't even been able to get any fiber bonding on the soft shackle after repeated use in the same spot.

-Cleanliness. As with any synthetic winch product, if it is clean it will last longer. How long a 'dirty' system will last is a very vague issue. I have abused synthetic line that is 8 years old that has never been washed which has gone all over the country in muddy and nasty environments.

-What turns. The RING rotates in the soft shackle under load. This isolates any wear to the soft shackle not the winch line. You can dunk the soft shackle in ring in water to remove most contaminates. The rotation of the ring will clean itself in a wiper fashion.

-Wear. I am still using the very first soft shackle I started testing with. I highly doubt people are going to use their own system in their entire life as much as I have farting around with this system, perhaps if you run a professional recovery service or teach classes. EVERYTHING wears, most standard snatch blocks use non-sealed and non-lubricated bushings for a comparison. If you run them in nasty environments they will also eventually wear. I decided to run the 'improved' soft shackle design with dual independent legs to more evenly distribute any wear over more bearing surface. It is also worth noting that UHMWPE makes an EXCELLENT low speed bearing surface. You also don't want to use a nylon wear sleeve. It can rotate under high loads which can cause damage to the line.



I noticed early on that having the ring flip out when used as a pulley was a real issue. With the vehicle assisting, or in most dynamic recoveries, the system will go slack and load itself back up. This can cause gravity or angle change to flip the ring over. It is worth noting that this is a captured system and the load will still be trapped. If the lines rub over each other you can have issues, but that will take a little time.



I designed a small block to help this issue. It also provides a few other benefits. It not only keeps the ring from flipping out, it also keeps the legs of the shackle in the proper position and also helps eliminate extra bearing loads when the shackle is connected to something smaller in diameter than the ring is wide. The smaller radius on the outside of the ring will create more wear. It is best to evenly distribute the load over the inner radius as much practical.

This is what my current package looks like. I believe I still offer the best overall package for a complete system. If you are interested please drop me a message.
09-30-2019 09:07 PM
DirtyComanche
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetboy View Post
I think you might be surprised how much a sail boat rigging loads are designed for. It's a much higher risk on a boat. So the design criteria is usually quite a bit higher.

Synthetic winch rope is just an alternative use of the early Dyneema rigging ropes. No reason we shouldn't also use the other sailing rigging parts. They work great. I'm kinda surprised it's taken so long to see more soft shackles around. I've used them for years. I'm also kinda shocked that people sell them for $50+ for $5 of rope and something you can make at home in about 15 minutes.

A 28mm Antal ring is rated for 14,000lb mwl. And they're $30 and fit in your pocket - except you've got to get the rope through the hole... so I'm not sure how folks plan on doing that unless you're going to pull the thimble off every time you want to use it. Or you'll use it backwards like the photo on the first page. That's not how they work normally.

Also relevant: Dyneema rope is UHMW plastic. It effectively self lubricates on the rings, so you should never overheat them, or at a minimum you'd need very high line speed.
09-30-2019 04:16 PM
sterlingfire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weasel View Post
that my take as well. We aren't talking some dingy in the middle of a lake.
Hey Tommy, quit playing with your dingy!!!
09-30-2019 02:09 PM
Weasel
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetboy View Post
They are fairly different applications, but yes sailboat rigging lines are subject to significantly greater loads, greater cycles, more abrasion, and more UV light. Sunlight and salt water along with static high loads and significantly more cycles of loading result in higher standards. Winch ropes are usually SK75 or some lesser version. They are basically the cheapest level of UHMW rope. It's a lower grade than what's usually considered the bottom grade rigging line for sailboats.

And boats are also a lot bigger. A 20k lb sailboat is not really even considered "big". A 20k lb off road vehicle is - well - I guess that's a typical overlander Tacoma? The main point being that even mid size boats have loads on the rigs that would break any typical consumer winch rope.
that my take as well. We aren't talking some dingy in the middle of a lake.
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