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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-26-2006 04:11 PM
motorcitydak what is an exected pressure i can get out of an oba setup? if i run 5 inch cylinders, i should only need about 80psi or so, but if I can get 120psi in there, they would lift 2350lbs each, meaning I could lift a vehicle straight up and out of a hole or something. Basically, I would have an extra 2000lbs or so of lifting force on the front end if needed. The axles and mounts would then worry me, but it is possible.
04-26-2006 01:21 PM
motorcitydak I remember talking to you and reading that thread for days a while ago. That is obviously where I got the ideas from. My cylinders would be as straight as possible and like I said, prob 5 inch bore.

You are using hudraulic rams in there if I remember rite. Do you have a problem with the seals failing and then losing suspending abilities?I figured if you kept air tool oil in there, you would be fine, but I was thinkin pneumatic cylinders since they are made to be run on air anyway.
04-26-2006 12:51 PM
ashmanjeepXJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron t
we have run this setup on my friends buggy. it is a heavy ass pig. the air rams work ok at best. unload like mad. they don't work anything like an airshock. airshocks work off of basic volume displacement. yes the co2 will quickly turn back into liquid. i am surprised you are even getting 1k psi out of them co2 is a really bad idea. at least normal compressed atmospheric air is 78% nitrogen and its cheap. with the 3" ram you will be able to suspend your rig with around 120# of air. you can run that off of your on board air comp.
we just cut down some poly bushings and used those in the eye of the ram. even kept the 1" pins.
air shocks are only $200 each. just pm a few of the vendors. albeit you may be too heavy for simple 2" body shocks.
The jackass is talking about my rig.

Its not that heavy, 560Lbs per rear corner of sprung weight rear, I do 3in rams and it requires about 80PSI to lift it.
F=PA
A=3.14(D/2)^2
D= piston diameter
P=pressure

At 80 PSI Im about 560Lbs per corner.

The weight also needs to take into account your mounting angle at 45 degree the ram needs to hold up alot more weight then vertical mounting.
Use geometry to figure the force if angled.

We have a jazillion page thread on this:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=261171


04-26-2006 12:17 PM
motorcitydak ok, sorry. my physics isnt so good, but i just figured out the area of a 4 inch bore cylinder is 12.56 inches. Maybe a 5 inch would be good for me, 19.625 inches and would have 1766# of force at only 90psi. With 2355 per corner and 120psi!
04-26-2006 11:53 AM
motorcitydak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott F
F = P x A.

119 psi in a 4" bore will support 1500 lbs.

159 psi in a 3" bore will support 1500 lbs.
OK, great. I assume F is force(1500#), P is pressure and A(3 or 4 inches) is area. So you dont have to figure out the volume or atleast surface area of the ram? Thats really simple, thanks dude. the front sprung weight is prob around 2200 pounds or so(Im guessin, never weighed my truck). I could figure that out easily by how much pressure a 4 inch bore cylinder takes to lift the rig.
04-26-2006 11:15 AM
Scott F F = P x A.

119 psi in a 4" bore will support 1500 lbs.

159 psi in a 3" bore will support 1500 lbs.
04-26-2006 10:50 AM
Trailer Rails
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddman
im pretty sure that it needs to be at or below its freezing point and at high pressure to change states. there was a thread debating this not too long ago.
I thought 1000psi was pretty close to CO2's switching point. So if the shok get compressed on a hard bump and the pressure shoots up to 12-1300psi the CO2 will switch over to a liquid and the shock will collapse.
04-26-2006 05:20 AM
motorcitydak
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron t
with the 3" ram you will be able to suspend your rig with around 120# of air. you can run that off of your on board air comp.
we just cut down some poly bushings and used those in the eye of the ram. even kept the 1" pins.
air shocks are only $200 each. just pm a few of the vendors. albeit you may be too heavy for simple 2" body shocks.
So a 3 inch bore cylinder with 120psi will support about 1500 pounds or so? How many psi would it take for a 4 inch cylinder to support that weight?

The air shocks would be nice if they were not basically for rock crawlin. 1000lbs per corner is all they can take.

So how bout some pics of your setup
04-26-2006 01:35 AM
Moab Austin i guess I just vision them as being really limited..
I mean sure you can adjust them but...
say you got a 5k rig (pretty common) you put enough air in them to get the rig to sit where you want it with the right amount of uptravel..now you want to go fast...

so that volume of air don't fit into the equation of smashing it into the whoops and having it not be way to:
A soft and bottom out
B harden up to fast..I.E. get TO progressive..

SO you can still adjust it IF those cannot be corrected..but how often..do you have to adjust it for every terrain type?

I would like to be proven wrong and enlightened..this is what this site is for..please show us..

I think if we could see a setup that when tilted at say...90 % load OFF of one end..and not totally unload..be able to crawl without being stiff..and still be able to medium pace trail run without bottoming out all over

AND being able to hit like say even 1 ft whoops at like 15-20 mph without bottoming..all on one setting then yes I think I could deal with having to adjust them to more extreme adversive situations..

but for what I wheel..all those things need to work equally as well in those peramiters..

I am not hitting 7 foot whoops at 100 mph..nor am I unloading 99% of my weight off of each corner all day long (well) but a happy meduim?
do they arok for that kinda stuff?
04-25-2006 11:24 PM
aaron t we have run this setup on my friends buggy. it is a heavy ass pig. the air rams work ok at best. unload like mad. they don't work anything like an airshock. airshocks work off of basic volume displacement. yes the co2 will quickly turn back into liquid. i am surprised you are even getting 1k psi out of them co2 is a really bad idea. at least normal compressed atmospheric air is 78% nitrogen and its cheap. with the 3" ram you will be able to suspend your rig with around 120# of air. you can run that off of your on board air comp.
we just cut down some poly bushings and used those in the eye of the ram. even kept the 1" pins.
air shocks are only $200 each. just pm a few of the vendors. albeit you may be too heavy for simple 2" body shocks.
04-25-2006 11:23 PM
reddman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailer Rails
Pics and more specs please!!!!! This sounds pretty cool. Don't you also run the risk of the CO2 turning back into a liquid when you hit a hard bump?
im pretty sure that it needs to be at or below its freezing point and at high pressure to change states. there was a thread debating this not too long ago.
04-25-2006 11:05 PM
keebler303
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorcitydak
You dont actually need OBA, you can just use your air compressor at home or something else i have been pondering...Lift up the front(or where ever the cylinders are at) to a desired height and open the valves up to equalize the pressure, then colse em up and put the rig back down and see where it rides. I know its a hilly-billy trial and error way to do it, but its still possible.
The redneck way wouldn't work. doing it that way would give you about 1/4" in compression and the other 11 3/4" in droop. not quite ideal i would say.
04-25-2006 06:21 PM
motorcitydak You dont actually need OBA, you can just use your air compressor at home or something else i have been pondering...Lift up the front(or where ever the cylinders are at) to a desired height and open the valves up to equalize the pressure, then colse em up and put the rig back down and see where it rides. I know its a hilly-billy trial and error way to do it, but its still possible.

Stinkbug-But you dont have to mess with how much oil is in the shocks, gettin nitrogen for it and all the equipment you need for that and there is not weight limit like the air shocks(1000 per corner). the cylinders can supports 10,000 pounds and up. I already have some 12 inch travel procomp MX6-Rs and am building this to fit em and a cylinder. Plus, its more fun to make your own system than just buy somethin and put it on.

Schmozilla-you can adjust your rate to what ever you want by how much pressure you are runnin in the cylinders.

Moab Austin-of course you can use regular shocks, the cylinder will act just like a regular coil spring, but much better. With the unloading, you can always pressurize the bottom more so it wont drop out as far and as long as its closed, the cylinder wont bottom out till you want it to.

Honestly, I see this setup as one of the best suspensions I can imagine. You can conrtol EVERY single aspect of it from the cab with a few buttons, try doin that with a coil over or an air shock. Now someone will say that you can get a c/o's with the airbags around em and remotely adjustable shocks, but they are very expensive compared to my setup.
04-25-2006 05:00 PM
keebler303 the point is its instantly infinitely adjustable
04-25-2006 01:13 PM
StinkBug
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorcitydak
o, and they dont cost near the amount of air shocks or c/o's. Maybe 100 bucks a clyinder.

Ok now add the cost of a good set of shocks, roughly another $100 per corner. Now you're just shy of the cost of a set of real air shocks, and you haven't even added up the cost of the OBA, solenoids, or plumbing.

Dallas
04-24-2006 09:35 PM
Schmozilla what kinda spring rates are you gettin... seems like it would be pretty damn stiff...
04-24-2006 08:31 PM
Moab Austin oh ok I thought you meant to replace all of it..

I retract my "sucks" attitude and just pose it in a question now..

how does it work with bumps? can you get shocks off the shelf to fit in the dampner department?

what about unloading..I.E. when you are climbing steep and the front gets "light"?
I am sure you can just dump some pressure, or even make a fancy valve that could do it automatically...but is unloading and issue?
04-24-2006 07:57 PM
motorcitydak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moab Austin
yeah but they don't work as good eighter..

what you guys are talking about is just a straight air ram in place of a shock..?right?

OR are you talking making a cantilever setup that is used to adjust your whole coil/shock mount to raise vehicle higher?
They would not take the place of a shock, just the springs or coil overs. what ever you use to support the rig, you still need shocks.

Its not a cantilevel either, just a different way to support a truck and have a very easily adjustable suspension, both in ride height and rate.
04-24-2006 07:37 PM
Moab Austin
Quote:
Originally Posted by motorcitydak
o, and they dont cost near the amount of air shocks or c/o's. Maybe 100 bucks a clyinder.

yeah but they don't work as good eighter..

what you guys are talking about is just a straight air ram in place of a shock..?right?

OR are you talking making a cantilever setup that is used to adjust your whole coil/shock mount to raise vehicle higher?
04-24-2006 07:29 PM
motorcitydak o, and they dont cost near the amount of air shocks or c/o's. Maybe 100 bucks a clyinder.
04-24-2006 07:26 PM
motorcitydak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmozilla
Id like to know more about this setup If you dont mind explaining more in dept of how you set it all up...
It works just like a regular pneumatic cylinder system anywhere. Compressed gas is controlled by valves and solenoids to be forced into a clyinder forcing the ram out. In this case, lifting the vehicle. Its great since you can precisely control and easily adjust your ride height and firmness. You can have 2 solenoids(1 in and 1 out) for the top only and have the bottom open, 2 top and 1 bottom to only vent the bottom or 2 top and 2 bottom to vent pressure out or force it in. The other great thing is that you can get cylinders with ungoldy amounts of travel, 30 inches+ if you can fit em. Of course you need a good way to keep em at the height you want since it will heat up and raise the rig. There is also no real need for bump stops since there should always be gas in the cylinder unless you let it out.
04-24-2006 07:09 PM
Trailer Rails
Quote:
Originally Posted by IHREDRIDER
Your plans are not feasable. Assuming 3000# on the front you have to plan to move atleast 4000# per cylinder. And a 4 in bore has ~12.5 ci. Therefore @ 90 psi you will be able to lift ~1125#. That is not enough. Better get somemore pressure. I use CO2, ~1000psi into 2.5 in cylinders. This allows me to adjust ride height at any angle on a 4200# rig.
Pics and more specs please!!!!! This sounds pretty cool. Don't you also run the risk of the CO2 turning back into a liquid when you hit a hard bump?
04-24-2006 06:28 PM
Schmozilla Id like to know more about this setup If you dont mind explaining more in dept of how you set it all up...
04-24-2006 05:55 PM
motorcitydak can you send me some pics of your setup. I was just plannin on an OBA setup to power em, but I cannot do the math to see what they would lift w that pressure. BTW, that was total weight, not only sprung. Its for a 96 dakota w a v6 5 speed, not a very heavy truck. thanks dude
04-24-2006 05:48 PM
IHREDRIDER Your plans are not feasable. Assuming 3000# on the front you have to plan to move atleast 4000# per cylinder. And a 4 in bore has ~12.5 ci. Therefore @ 90 psi you will be able to lift ~1125#. That is not enough. Better get somemore pressure. I use CO2, ~1000psi into 2.5 in cylinders. This allows me to adjust ride height at any angle on a 4200# rig.
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