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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-29-2006 12:20 AM
az-k5 Check the tech. Billavista wrote a kick ass article on this (there is also a link on the first page)
06-28-2006 09:45 PM
blacksheep312 Im new to this subject, and want to get the right equipment. I dont have any recover/rigging/toeing eguip, where would I can the best products online for this? I have a trip coming up and would like to get this out of the way. We should have someone create a nice PDF on how to properly do all these things in an event.
06-28-2006 08:20 PM
matt99tj Very sorry for the loss. If any good comes from this maybe someone will see this post and not repeat it.

Any older 4x4 that's been in mud, water or salt can have a frame failure. I have seen rusted frames painted over and look new. A few years ago I started to use a safety line attached to a second point on rigs that I think the recovery point may fail. I use this on cars and suv's stuck in snow. I one point gives way the second point keeps anything from going to far.

I haven't used winch rope that much but if a shackle is used at the end of a winch rope can it fly back if the recovery point fails but the rope stays intact? I have been using a tree strap as a back up safety line through the shackle at the end of my winch rope and to a second recovery point just in case the first recovery point fails.
06-28-2006 08:14 PM
kwrangln I had to go back and search for the source of the pics to make sure I remembered the story right. He was trying to pull out a stuck chevy 1500, bent the first hook on the first attempt, then tried on the second hook which broke a bolt leading to overloading the front frame mount. Winching from dry ground would have been a much better/safer/cheaper route to go, but as you can see from the pics, he aint got one.
06-28-2006 07:28 PM
mrblaine
Quote:
Originally Posted by az-k5
That jeep with the bent tow hooks is a perfect example of lack of knowledge/negligence. I highly doubt that both hooks were being used and the frame broke simultanously as the hook bent. It was more likely the frame broke and then they moved to the other hook. The frame failure should have said to those doing the recovery there may be too much resistance.

I was trying to figure that out as well. Maybe they took one strap, threw over both hooks and put the two eyes in a shackle to another strap. When the one hook pulled out of the frame that would let a lot of momentum and force straighten out the other hook, or vice versa.

I am only guessing based on the bent hook looking a bit bent over sideways.
06-28-2006 05:35 PM
az-k5 That jeep with the bent tow hooks is a perfect example of lack of knowledge/negligence. I highly doubt that both hooks were being used and the frame broke simultanously as the hook bent. It was more likely the frame broke and then they moved to the other hook. The frame failure should have said to those doing the recovery there may be too much resistance.
06-27-2006 10:56 PM
Infernal Jeep I've seen a few similar situations,it sucks that this one resulted in death.
06-27-2006 05:11 PM
Balsax Since I feel this thread is opening up some eyes and possibly preventing more accidents, I want to mention one more thing...Don't put a strap around a tow ball for the same reason as not using a shackle. If the ballor hitch pin failed, it will become a projectile just like a shackle in the middle of a strap. If even one life is spared from spreading this information, I feel it is worth "hijacking" this thread.

edit: a few years ago, there was a similiar thread that I saw that explained the dangers of using a shackle between two straps. I wasn't aware of this problem before and it opened up my eyes. I'm now MUCH more aware of how I rig and how my friends rig our recovery situations.
06-27-2006 04:39 PM
kwrangln Here, I've posted this on a few boards now to try and help newbies understand just how dangerous recoveries can be. The video thats been mentioned a couple times of a strap breaking is in there as well. If anyone can find any other pics, vids, or doccumented recovery accidents, please let me know where to find them. The more stories like this we can find to open peoples eyes, the better.

Quote:
Originally posted by kwrangln:
[QB] Lets talk a bit about recovery operations in an off road environment.

The act of recovering a disabled or stuck vehicle is inherently dangerous, were talking about moving a 4000 lb chunk of metal, plastic, and rubber over uneven terrain using a flexible connection between them. The forces involved are pretty incredible, and these forces are way more than a person made of flesh and bone can withstand.

Winches, cables, chains, straps, ropes, highlifts, come alongs, and how much training does the average wheeler have to use any of it? About zero. Maybe what they have seen on the trail (wether that be the right way, or the wrong way), and what they read on the internet or in magazines.

So, just how much force are we talking about here?

Here's an example, a 10,000 lb rated tow hook, had a recovery strap on it being pulled by another jeep to get out of a mud hole.

Here's another, guy was trying to recover a half ton pickup from the mud. Notice the hook on the other side doesn't look quite right either.

It doesn't look right because it was ripped out of the frame.


But straps are soft, flexible, pretty light, how much damage could they do?

Here's a video, about half way through, a strap breaks, dents the tail gate of the truck pulling, then goes through the back window about where a passengers head would be.
CLICK FOR VID.

Here's a story from a while back, two straps connected by a shackle (never do this, bad mojo).



STORY HERE.

Need another example of why not to use a shackle to connect two straps together?

Well, here ya go, the story of a 37 year old husband and father who is no longer among the living since he forgot this rule. Dont you forget.
STORY HERE.

What about high lifts? How can something as simple as a jack be dangerous? I posted this link a while back, and its linked to the SWB FAQ, but its worth reposting, read and heed.

HELP, MY HIGHLIFT IS TRYING TO KILL ME.

And finally, winches, the big daddy of ouches, mess up with one and you might not ever get the chance to mess up again. Yup, just like the plastic string on a weedwacker can cut grass, the steel cable on a winch can cut people, trees, fenders, just about anything that gets in its way.

BE WARNED, THE FOLLOWING LINK CONTAINS GRAPHIC PICTURES SHOWING WHAT HAPPENS WHEN A WINCH CABLE LETS GO UNDER STRESS AND ENCOUNTERS A PERSON. DO NOT OPEN IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH OR IF CHILDREN ARE HOVERING OVER YOUR SHOULDER AS YOUR READING THIS.

CLICK HERE FOR THE PICS AND STORY, WARNING, GRAPHIC PICS.


So, with all the pics, stories, and links out of the way, how the heck does all that apply to you out on the trail for a nice relaxing ride? Quite simply, getting stuck happens, getting unstuck has to happen as well, that means you will very likely at some point in this hobby be involved in a recovery operation. Do not let yourself be the main feature in the next story I dig up to post as a warning to others. Treat recovery gear like a bomb that you dont know what the timer is set to. Be careful, pay close attention to what you are doing, as well as what others are doing, spectators wont fare any better when dueling with a cable or strap that decides to fly.

Be careful out there. [/QB]
06-27-2006 04:35 PM
muddy_yota_guy Could we have a thread of the best way to recover a vehicle? possibly make it a sticky. I have a strap with the nylon loops, no hooks or clevis and i always stick it in my reciever hitch with my hitch pin through the loop; does anyone see something that could be dangerous in this situation?
06-27-2006 04:21 PM
ASITool Whatever the proper way to rig a load.... if you don't use metal in the middle metal doesn't fly around. I'd rather destroy a strap, (or even cause a failure because of a choked strap) than have metal fly... There's too many unknowns: who welded the recovery point on the other guy's vehicle, who's doing the rigging, did the strap sit in sun and deteriorate etc. btw, I used to own a towing company and I've seen a few things go wrong.

As far as the topic going off thread, I think that discussing what went wrong and how to maybe save another life is a good way to honor the memory of a fellow offroader.
06-27-2006 03:14 PM
TJ44s There was a video floating around of a strap breaking . It was of an S-10 pulling a jeep out of the snow , the strap broke and went flying like a missile into the back window of the S-10 . Not only did it blow the back window out the tail gate got bent up. Had someone been in the passenger's seat they probably would have died .
06-27-2006 02:14 PM
kwrangln
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
All the pictures you show are of attachment point failures.
Yup, but any failure in the rigging is enough for the whole system to fail. As it was, the strap flew, had a shackle been involved, it would have become a projectile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
If these are only rated at 10K #, then you must use your common sense when recovering and know not to use them when a substantial force is applied...
Those are the same hooks on hundreds of thousands of jeeps out there. They have been used for countless recoveries, and they are rated at twice the vehicle weight. Few if any recovery points on custom vehicles have any weight rating what so ever. Point being, simple inspection could not have forseen a hairline crack in a frame, and without known weights and forces involved, there was no way of knowing an attachment point would have been overloaded or failed.

My whole point to you is there are too many variables to safely consider adding a shackle to any strap that uses kenitic energy in a recovery. Your rigging experience is undoubtedly a more controlled environment than any wheeler sees, known weights, lift calculations, slack taken up slowly, one directional application of force. Assumptions made in a controlled rigging environment can not be applied to an uncontrolled environment, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
I do not weigh each vehicle and the force it will take to remove it. I do however, use common sense when recovery is required. I don't use a huge vehicle with multiple straps lashed together and get a 30-40 foot full speed running start to pull someone out. Thats obsured. With 2 or more straps together, its easy to get that kind of distance if a 20 foot strap is not enough running room. You must take into consideration all aspects of the recovery, condition of the strap, attachment point, force behind recovery, amount of pull exerted by the towing vehicle, etc. etc.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
Accidents only happen when someone is negligent, in some form or another...
Tough call between negilignce and just plain ole lack of education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
Once again, lets use this as an educational experience and actually find a good/proper way to do things...

Rob
Workin on it.
06-27-2006 02:07 PM
pnut333 I found this additional information on the subject (see pic below). I did not know him, but condolences to his family are in order. If you want to donate $$ in his memory, a charity is listed. If you do some additional google searches under his name, you will learn more about him. Many results come up.

I also found this post on another board (see below). God rest his soul, this could have been any one of us on a very bad day with bad circumstances.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.p...wtopic&t=6050&

06-27-2006 02:04 PM
Chass
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
well said.

All straps should be clean, dry, and damage free. Period. If someone can afford to wheel then they can afford a decent strap/recovery equipment. It can save everyone's life.

Things happen. They do. But you gotta eliminate it from the beginning. We should actually try to fix the problem instead of "band-aiding" it.

If ya got shitty straps, stay away from me.
Rob
Rob, I really do understand your point. In a perfect world, your point is very valid. Unfortunately I live in the real world. I go wheeling and often meet up with other groups of rednecks/backwoods hicks/computer geeks/ whatever using their recovery equipment incorrectly. Asking everyone to make sure that all their gear is clean dry and damage free isn't realistic. It just aint gona happen. The next best thing is to tell someone using a shackle to connect two straps that it could kill them and then show them how to do it without the shackle.

Not everyone that can afford to wheel can afford new clean equipment nor will they. I've bought wheelable trucks for less than the cost of my high end rigging strap! I've also pulled out many trucks with a 20,000 lb tow strap that has a frey half way through it. I don't use any shackles and I make sure that the connecting point isn't going to fly off but otherwise I see only a very small risk of injury and an even smaller risk of death. No, I'm not hitching a ride all the way back to town to buy a new strap because mine just developed a new frey. I'll use what I have as safely as possible.

I think that you should NEVER use a shackle in the middle of two straps, if for no other reason than that it might give someone else the idea that its OK to do and they could get hurt if they don't have all the rigging knowledge you have. Its just a bad idea under any circumstances. (except for maybe this controlled environment you speak of. I've never wheeled there )

In summary, don't put a dangerous projectile in a high tension slingshot between two rigs under any circumstances. They can almost always be connected another way.

Its very sad to know that a family lost their father and husband. The worst part is knowing that it could have been avoided if his help hadn't put a shackle in the middle or if he had checked the other guys work. It makes me painfully aware that some of my hobbies carry more risk than I should probably take as a father and a husband . . .

Chass
ct
06-27-2006 02:00 PM
Josiah Great thread for a great cause, that is how I see it. This thread may very well save someones life here and we'll never know. Has anyone seen what happens when putting a dowel through a loop end knot like shown in the .gif above? I would assume it would get wedged in the knot (the knots not what is going to break) and it will too become a projectile so I disagree with that method as well, the paper between the knot might work and I wish I would have thought of that as I've lost a good strap that way in one of my worse stucks yet. I hope you guys play it safe out there and take a hint from this incident, poor guy and I feel incredibly bad for the family he leaves behind. God bless him and his family, RIP.

I used a bad strap and knew the risks going into it, led to a broken window and damaged tailgate (crazy video). The chain is what came back and hit the truck, I have it on video and am going to post it soon. I asked the guy I was pulling out if he was willing to take the risk and he was, I rigged it so it would hit his truck. The chain wasn't long enough to strike him inside the cab but it was hanging over the tailgate when all was said and done. Scary.
06-27-2006 01:08 PM
Luv2ski I am sorry that happened.

However, it doesn't need to be metal to hurt or kill. I had a strap break, come back and nearly go through my radiator....I couldn't imagine if there had been someone standing there.
06-27-2006 01:02 PM
rockcity
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Doc
Not flaming, but you have to be realistic. I work in the entertainment industry and have been rigging my whole career, and nothing I have rigged has ever broken or fallen. Why? Because I have access to the best equipment and if I have any doubts if that the 5/8" shackle I'm using is not strong enough, I go and get a 3/4" shackle. It's a proceedure that has served me well.

The problem on the trail is people that have 2" Canyon Crawler straps, and they're cut, or old or just too weak to pull out a 6000lb vehicle that is stuck behind a rock, or in mud. Or people that are using 5/16" wire rope, (10,900 burst strength), on a big vehicle and shock loading it. That's reality, so that's why I won't use two straps shackled to each other in most situations. Sure, if we could get everybody to carry 6" straps and make sure they're recovery points are sound, then we could eliminate these scenario's, but that's going to take time and you're never going to eliminate stupidity altogether.

I have 3/8" Synthetic rope on my Warn HS9500, and feel WAY more comfortable about it now. No, it's not the fault of the shackle, but it's like the old mantra, "Grenades don't kill people...it's the shrapnel that does it!"

well said.

Once again, I've been in rigging for a while now and have only had 1 strap fail, due to overload of a damaged strap. I won't make that mistake again...

All straps should be clean, dry, and damage free. Period. If someone can afford to wheel then they can afford a decent strap/recovery equipment. It can save everyone's life.

Things happen. They do. But you gotta eliminate it from the beginning. We should actually try to fix the problem instead of "band-aiding" it.

If ya got shitty straps, stay away from me.


Rob
06-27-2006 12:56 PM
rockcity All the pictures you show are of attachment point failures. If these are only rated at 10K #, then you must use your common sense when recovering and know not to use them when a substantial force is applied...

I do not weigh each vehicle and the force it will take to remove it. I do however, use common sense when recovery is required. I don't use a huge vehicle with multiple straps lashed together and get a 30-40 foot full speed running start to pull someone out. Thats obsured. With 2 or more straps together, its easy to get that kind of distance if a 20 foot strap is not enough running room. You must take into consideration all aspects of the recovery, condition of the strap, attachment point, force behind recovery, amount of pull exerted by the towing vehicle, etc. etc.

Accidents only happen when someone is negligent, in some form or another...

Once again, lets use this as an educational experience and actually find a good/proper way to do things...

Rob
06-27-2006 12:48 PM
Roc Doc
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockcity
My point is that when used properly, it shouldn't be a problem. If the strap breaks, then there is another problem that hasn't been addressed (insufficient/damaged strap)...


there is a different problem here other than using a shackle to join 2 straps

straps in poor condition=breaking straps
overloading straps=breaking straps


These are the problems. People use straps that are not up to the task...

OK, you drive your Jeep down the road and your old/worn out steering fails and you hit a car head on, do we try to figure out how to keep from hitting people head on, or do we try to fix the old/worn out steering???
When steering breaks, something is gonna happen. Does that mean we quit driving all together???

Actually fix the problem and everything else will fall in line, shackle or no shackle.

Yes there is a danger with them in yanking people out of a situation (because people have poor recovery equipment), but with tip top straps (should be checked every trip and before/after every recovery), you should be fine. My equipment is in tip top shape. I check it every time I use it and before I use it, its just habit. I won't do it with someone else's equipment, but I do with my own.

Why not focus on NOT using damaged/old/worn/rotten straps/rope. This seems to be the culprit for most strap failure, which in turn causes damage or injury


waiting for the flame
Not flaming, but you have to be realistic. I work in the entertainment industry and have been rigging my whole career, and nothing I have rigged has ever broken or fallen. Why? Because I have access to the best equipment and if I have any doubts if that the 5/8" shackle I'm using is not strong enough, I go and get a 3/4" shackle. It's a proceedure that has served me well.

The problem on the trail is people that have 2" Canyon Crawler straps, and they're cut, or old or just too weak to pull out a 6000lb vehicle that is stuck behind a rock, or in mud. Or people that are using 5/16" wire rope, (10,900 burst strength), on a big vehicle and shock loading it. That's reality, so that's why I won't use two straps shackled to each other in most situations. Sure, if we could get everybody to carry 6" straps and make sure they're recovery points are sound, then we could eliminate these scenario's, but that's going to take time and you're never going to eliminate stupidity altogether.

I have 3/8" Synthetic rope on my Warn HS9500, and feel WAY more comfortable about it now. No, it's not the fault of the shackle, but it's like the old mantra, "Grenades don't kill people...it's the shrapnel that does it!"
06-27-2006 12:42 PM
kwrangln Not to get too far off track here, my condolences to the family. This is an all to familiar story in our sport. Seems someone is killed during a recovery every year or so.

Rockcity, do you perform load calculations for each recovery to ensure that your recovery gear is up to the task? Do you weigh the stuck vehicle?

Most likely not, so you have no idea what your margin of safety is with the gear you are using. That being said, using a shackle is just a bad idea, too many variables.

A shackle in the following situations could very well have ended with another story of a wheeler passing.




Your not honestly trying to say that we should all be ok with a brand new 30K strap, 10K rated factory recovery points and using a rated shackle to join two straps are you? Technically we should be, since the vehicle being recovered weighs less than 4K lbs, but shit happens that you cant account for. Minimize risk by not attaching a weight to the middle of essentially a rubber band.
06-27-2006 12:38 PM
bigjeepguy My condolences to the family. I am sorry to hear about the loss. If there is anything the online 4x4 community can do, please let us know.
06-27-2006 12:36 PM
rockcity
Quote:
Originally Posted by cannoncrawler
Way to turn a thread about a death into a flame war

important topic......just please start a new thread....I will gladly read it and change anything I am doing wrong!!!!


back on topic......R.I.P.

Our thought and prayers are with the family!!!!! is there an address to send cards???

This is not a flame war thread. More educational than anything

Lets use this event as an example of something that could happen if proper maintenance and rigging is not followed. However, we do not know how bad off the rigging was or if it was previously damaged (or the exact situation)

For everyone who uses old damaged rigging, please cut it up and throw it away. If you use insufficient rigging, do not put a shackle in the middle of 2 straps.

Rigging is very important and should be checked prior to every trip. Replace when necessary and keep the rigging clean and dry when possible. When strapping 2 straps together for distance, the breaking strength remains the same as the weakest strap, with added distance a vehicle can travel to yank someone out. Take this into consideration. Use a winch when possible.

RIP Jonathan



thats all.
Rob
06-27-2006 12:15 PM
rockcity My point is that when used properly, it shouldn't be a problem. If the strap breaks, then there is another problem that hasn't been addressed (insufficient/damaged strap)...


there is a different problem here other than using a shackle to join 2 straps

straps in poor condition=breaking straps
overloading straps=breaking straps


These are the problems. People use straps that are not up to the task...

OK, you drive your Jeep down the road and your old/worn out steering fails and you hit a car head on, do we try to figure out how to keep from hitting people head on, or do we try to fix the old/worn out steering???
When steering breaks, something is gonna happen. Does that mean we quit driving all together???

Actually fix the problem and everything else will fall in line, shackle or no shackle.

Yes there is a danger with them in yanking people out of a situation (because people have poor recovery equipment), but with tip top straps (should be checked every trip and before/after every recovery), you should be fine. My equipment is in tip top shape. I check it every time I use it and before I use it, its just habit. I won't do it with someone else's equipment, but I do with my own.

Why not focus on NOT using damaged/old/worn/rotten straps/rope. This seems to be the culprit for most strap failure, which in turn causes damage or injury


waiting for the flame
06-27-2006 12:00 PM
cannoncrawler
Wtf

Way to turn a thread about a death into a flame war

important topic......just please start a new thread....I will gladly read it and change anything I am doing wrong!!!!


back on topic......R.I.P.

Our thought and prayers are with the family!!!!! is there an address to send cards???
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