|06-29-2006 12:20 AM|
|az-k5||Check the tech. Billavista wrote a kick ass article on this (there is also a link on the first page)|
|06-28-2006 09:45 PM|
|blacksheep312||Im new to this subject, and want to get the right equipment. I dont have any recover/rigging/toeing eguip, where would I can the best products online for this? I have a trip coming up and would like to get this out of the way. We should have someone create a nice PDF on how to properly do all these things in an event.|
|06-28-2006 08:20 PM|
Very sorry for the loss. If any good comes from this maybe someone will see this post and not repeat it.
Any older 4x4 that's been in mud, water or salt can have a frame failure. I have seen rusted frames painted over and look new. A few years ago I started to use a safety line attached to a second point on rigs that I think the recovery point may fail. I use this on cars and suv's stuck in snow. I one point gives way the second point keeps anything from going to far.
I haven't used winch rope that much but if a shackle is used at the end of a winch rope can it fly back if the recovery point fails but the rope stays intact? I have been using a tree strap as a back up safety line through the shackle at the end of my winch rope and to a second recovery point just in case the first recovery point fails.
|06-28-2006 08:14 PM|
|kwrangln||I had to go back and search for the source of the pics to make sure I remembered the story right. He was trying to pull out a stuck chevy 1500, bent the first hook on the first attempt, then tried on the second hook which broke a bolt leading to overloading the front frame mount. Winching from dry ground would have been a much better/safer/cheaper route to go, but as you can see from the pics, he aint got one.|
|06-28-2006 07:28 PM|
I was trying to figure that out as well. Maybe they took one strap, threw over both hooks and put the two eyes in a shackle to another strap. When the one hook pulled out of the frame that would let a lot of momentum and force straighten out the other hook, or vice versa.
I am only guessing based on the bent hook looking a bit bent over sideways.
|06-28-2006 05:35 PM|
|az-k5||That jeep with the bent tow hooks is a perfect example of lack of knowledge/negligence. I highly doubt that both hooks were being used and the frame broke simultanously as the hook bent. It was more likely the frame broke and then they moved to the other hook. The frame failure should have said to those doing the recovery there may be too much resistance.|
|06-27-2006 10:56 PM|
|Infernal Jeep||I've seen a few similar situations,it sucks that this one resulted in death.|
|06-27-2006 05:11 PM|
Since I feel this thread is opening up some eyes and possibly preventing more accidents, I want to mention one more thing...Don't put a strap around a tow ball for the same reason as not using a shackle. If the ballor hitch pin failed, it will become a projectile just like a shackle in the middle of a strap. If even one life is spared from spreading this information, I feel it is worth "hijacking" this thread.
edit: a few years ago, there was a similiar thread that I saw that explained the dangers of using a shackle between two straps. I wasn't aware of this problem before and it opened up my eyes. I'm now MUCH more aware of how I rig and how my friends rig our recovery situations.
|06-27-2006 04:39 PM|
Here, I've posted this on a few boards now to try and help newbies understand just how dangerous recoveries can be. The video thats been mentioned a couple times of a strap breaking is in there as well. If anyone can find any other pics, vids, or doccumented recovery accidents, please let me know where to find them. The more stories like this we can find to open peoples eyes, the better.
|06-27-2006 04:35 PM|
|muddy_yota_guy||Could we have a thread of the best way to recover a vehicle? possibly make it a sticky. I have a strap with the nylon loops, no hooks or clevis and i always stick it in my reciever hitch with my hitch pin through the loop; does anyone see something that could be dangerous in this situation?|
|06-27-2006 04:21 PM|
Whatever the proper way to rig a load.... if you don't use metal in the middle metal doesn't fly around. I'd rather destroy a strap, (or even cause a failure because of a choked strap) than have metal fly... There's too many unknowns: who welded the recovery point on the other guy's vehicle, who's doing the rigging, did the strap sit in sun and deteriorate etc. btw, I used to own a towing company and I've seen a few things go wrong.
As far as the topic going off thread, I think that discussing what went wrong and how to maybe save another life is a good way to honor the memory of a fellow offroader.
|06-27-2006 03:14 PM|
|TJ44s||There was a video floating around of a strap breaking . It was of an S-10 pulling a jeep out of the snow , the strap broke and went flying like a missile into the back window of the S-10 . Not only did it blow the back window out the tail gate got bent up. Had someone been in the passenger's seat they probably would have died .|
|06-27-2006 02:14 PM|
My whole point to you is there are too many variables to safely consider adding a shackle to any strap that uses kenitic energy in a recovery. Your rigging experience is undoubtedly a more controlled environment than any wheeler sees, known weights, lift calculations, slack taken up slowly, one directional application of force. Assumptions made in a controlled rigging environment can not be applied to an uncontrolled environment, period.
|06-27-2006 02:07 PM|
I found this additional information on the subject (see pic below). I did not know him, but condolences to his family are in order. If you want to donate $$ in his memory, a charity is listed. If you do some additional google searches under his name, you will learn more about him. Many results come up.
I also found this post on another board (see below). God rest his soul, this could have been any one of us on a very bad day with bad circumstances.
|06-27-2006 02:04 PM|
Not everyone that can afford to wheel can afford new clean equipment nor will they. I've bought wheelable trucks for less than the cost of my high end rigging strap! I've also pulled out many trucks with a 20,000 lb tow strap that has a frey half way through it. I don't use any shackles and I make sure that the connecting point isn't going to fly off but otherwise I see only a very small risk of injury and an even smaller risk of death. No, I'm not hitching a ride all the way back to town to buy a new strap because mine just developed a new frey. I'll use what I have as safely as possible.
I think that you should NEVER use a shackle in the middle of two straps, if for no other reason than that it might give someone else the idea that its OK to do and they could get hurt if they don't have all the rigging knowledge you have. Its just a bad idea under any circumstances. (except for maybe this controlled environment you speak of. I've never wheeled there )
In summary, don't put a dangerous projectile in a high tension slingshot between two rigs under any circumstances. They can almost always be connected another way.
Its very sad to know that a family lost their father and husband. The worst part is knowing that it could have been avoided if his help hadn't put a shackle in the middle or if he had checked the other guys work. It makes me painfully aware that some of my hobbies carry more risk than I should probably take as a father and a husband . . .
|06-27-2006 02:00 PM|
Great thread for a great cause, that is how I see it. This thread may very well save someones life here and we'll never know. Has anyone seen what happens when putting a dowel through a loop end knot like shown in the .gif above? I would assume it would get wedged in the knot (the knots not what is going to break) and it will too become a projectile so I disagree with that method as well, the paper between the knot might work and I wish I would have thought of that as I've lost a good strap that way in one of my worse stucks yet. I hope you guys play it safe out there and take a hint from this incident, poor guy and I feel incredibly bad for the family he leaves behind. God bless him and his family, RIP.
I used a bad strap and knew the risks going into it, led to a broken window and damaged tailgate (crazy video). The chain is what came back and hit the truck, I have it on video and am going to post it soon. I asked the guy I was pulling out if he was willing to take the risk and he was, I rigged it so it would hit his truck. The chain wasn't long enough to strike him inside the cab but it was hanging over the tailgate when all was said and done. Scary.
|06-27-2006 01:08 PM|
I am sorry that happened.
However, it doesn't need to be metal to hurt or kill. I had a strap break, come back and nearly go through my radiator....I couldn't imagine if there had been someone standing there.
|06-27-2006 01:02 PM|
Once again, I've been in rigging for a while now and have only had 1 strap fail, due to overload of a damaged strap. I won't make that mistake again...
All straps should be clean, dry, and damage free. Period. If someone can afford to wheel then they can afford a decent strap/recovery equipment. It can save everyone's life.
Things happen. They do. But you gotta eliminate it from the beginning. We should actually try to fix the problem instead of "band-aiding" it.
If ya got shitty straps, stay away from me.
|06-27-2006 12:56 PM|
All the pictures you show are of attachment point failures. If these are only rated at 10K #, then you must use your common sense when recovering and know not to use them when a substantial force is applied...
I do not weigh each vehicle and the force it will take to remove it. I do however, use common sense when recovery is required. I don't use a huge vehicle with multiple straps lashed together and get a 30-40 foot full speed running start to pull someone out. Thats obsured. With 2 or more straps together, its easy to get that kind of distance if a 20 foot strap is not enough running room. You must take into consideration all aspects of the recovery, condition of the strap, attachment point, force behind recovery, amount of pull exerted by the towing vehicle, etc. etc.
Accidents only happen when someone is negligent, in some form or another...
Once again, lets use this as an educational experience and actually find a good/proper way to do things...
|06-27-2006 12:48 PM|
The problem on the trail is people that have 2" Canyon Crawler straps, and they're cut, or old or just too weak to pull out a 6000lb vehicle that is stuck behind a rock, or in mud. Or people that are using 5/16" wire rope, (10,900 burst strength), on a big vehicle and shock loading it. That's reality, so that's why I won't use two straps shackled to each other in most situations. Sure, if we could get everybody to carry 6" straps and make sure they're recovery points are sound, then we could eliminate these scenario's, but that's going to take time and you're never going to eliminate stupidity altogether.
I have 3/8" Synthetic rope on my Warn HS9500, and feel WAY more comfortable about it now. No, it's not the fault of the shackle, but it's like the old mantra, "Grenades don't kill people...it's the shrapnel that does it!"
|06-27-2006 12:42 PM|
Not to get too far off track here, my condolences to the family. This is an all to familiar story in our sport. Seems someone is killed during a recovery every year or so.
Rockcity, do you perform load calculations for each recovery to ensure that your recovery gear is up to the task? Do you weigh the stuck vehicle?
Most likely not, so you have no idea what your margin of safety is with the gear you are using. That being said, using a shackle is just a bad idea, too many variables.
A shackle in the following situations could very well have ended with another story of a wheeler passing.
Your not honestly trying to say that we should all be ok with a brand new 30K strap, 10K rated factory recovery points and using a rated shackle to join two straps are you? Technically we should be, since the vehicle being recovered weighs less than 4K lbs, but shit happens that you cant account for. Minimize risk by not attaching a weight to the middle of essentially a rubber band.
|06-27-2006 12:38 PM|
|bigjeepguy||My condolences to the family. I am sorry to hear about the loss. If there is anything the online 4x4 community can do, please let us know.|
|06-27-2006 12:36 PM|
This is not a flame war thread. More educational than anything
Lets use this event as an example of something that could happen if proper maintenance and rigging is not followed. However, we do not know how bad off the rigging was or if it was previously damaged (or the exact situation)
For everyone who uses old damaged rigging, please cut it up and throw it away. If you use insufficient rigging, do not put a shackle in the middle of 2 straps.
Rigging is very important and should be checked prior to every trip. Replace when necessary and keep the rigging clean and dry when possible. When strapping 2 straps together for distance, the breaking strength remains the same as the weakest strap, with added distance a vehicle can travel to yank someone out. Take this into consideration. Use a winch when possible.
|06-27-2006 12:15 PM|
My point is that when used properly, it shouldn't be a problem. If the strap breaks, then there is another problem that hasn't been addressed (insufficient/damaged strap)...
there is a different problem here other than using a shackle to join 2 straps
straps in poor condition=breaking straps
overloading straps=breaking straps
These are the problems. People use straps that are not up to the task...
OK, you drive your Jeep down the road and your old/worn out steering fails and you hit a car head on, do we try to figure out how to keep from hitting people head on, or do we try to fix the old/worn out steering???
When steering breaks, something is gonna happen. Does that mean we quit driving all together???
Actually fix the problem and everything else will fall in line, shackle or no shackle.
Yes there is a danger with them in yanking people out of a situation (because people have poor recovery equipment), but with tip top straps (should be checked every trip and before/after every recovery), you should be fine. My equipment is in tip top shape. I check it every time I use it and before I use it, its just habit. I won't do it with someone else's equipment, but I do with my own.
Why not focus on NOT using damaged/old/worn/rotten straps/rope. This seems to be the culprit for most strap failure, which in turn causes damage or injury
waiting for the flame
|06-27-2006 12:00 PM|
Way to turn a thread about a death into a flame war
important topic......just please start a new thread....I will gladly read it and change anything I am doing wrong!!!!
back on topic......R.I.P.
Our thought and prayers are with the family!!!!! is there an address to send cards???
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