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Old 09-27-2012, 07:47 AM   #226 (permalink)
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There are hundreds if not thousands of illegally build cabins in California. To get a permit to build as I was told you have to have a area for a fire truck to turn around. How is a fire truck going to get there? The permit process is going to be hard to do in these circumstances.
My friend works for the County....and tried to legally build a cabin.....NOT. In order to get a "PERMIT", he had to have Fire access.

Anyone throwing that excuse for this issue....is just jealous THEY don't have a cabin out there...and would do EXACTLY the same thing in the same shoes. The same people that are willing to break their junk in the box to stop this, talking about rolling new rocks back in are going to not build a small cabin over a technicality on a permit?? I call BS on that one.

NEXT exaggeration.....
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:08 AM   #227 (permalink)
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There are hundreds if not thousands of illegally build cabins in California. To get a permit to build as I was told you have to have a area for a fire truck to turn around. How is a fire truck going to get there? The permit process is going to be hard to do in these circumstances.
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My friend works for the County....and tried to legally build a cabin.....NOT. In order to get a "PERMIT", he had to have Fire access.

Anyone throwing that excuse for this issue....is just jealous THEY don't have a cabin out there...and would do EXACTLY the same thing in the same shoes. So I call BS on that one.

NEXT exaggeration.....
Gentlemen - this issue has been breached here for the purposes of a singular argument - some trail user's perception of a quid pro quo related to a County Supervisor having a Board level position on RTF working along side other cabin owners who are also on the Board. The parties put themselves in this position, so cabin jealousy likely has nothing to do with it. How is that an exaggeration Ken?

But, while on subject related to this issue; there is a very good reason for fire codes related to this matter. If a private resident gets their cabin going on fire, many millions of dollars in timber damage (TPZ), beyond basic liability protection afforded by private insurance will be done. That is why there is a very strict planning process associated with constructing/building in Timber Protection Zones. Additionally, the basis for property taxes and other associated fees are not fairly realized by the other businesses and residents of the county.

And further, key to the issue, what if Karen Schambach wanted to buy a piece of TPZ on the Rubicon and build a small neighborhood for her, Monte and extended family?

Personally, I couldn't care less about the cabins, just the real conflict that it created.

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Old 09-27-2012, 08:14 AM   #228 (permalink)
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I'm not devaluing your statement...

I'm only saying these people would do the exact same thing, given the circumstances. So to throw a rock, when they are equally likely to get hit by one....is an exaggeration.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:21 AM   #229 (permalink)
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This is my OWN personal opinion, since I can't get into the head of the decision makers....the people today, are paying for the party that was held there for 15+ years, the aftermath of Spider Closure in 2004, etc....

It's sad, and unfortunate...but that's how I see it. If the Little Sluice was used then, as it is used now...I don't think we'd dealing with this.
Ken, I agree with a lot of your points, but I ask that you think a little bit more in depth into what you are saying. By far, using the county's interpretation of attractive nuisance, Rubicon Springs is the clear winner on the trail, now. Multiple times per year, the biggest drinking, partying and hanging out fests happen there. Given the numbers, no public showers, inadequate sanitation, real emergency evacuation issues, etc... But people dig it - good enough for me. Once the county gets rolling down this road, it will get tough to stop them because of the multi-agency jurisdictions involved.

The "attractive nuisance" that may have existed at LS is/was manageable, political ambitions....no so much.

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Old 09-27-2012, 08:35 AM   #230 (permalink)
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Rubicon Springs is the clear winner on the trail, now. Multiple times per year, the biggest drinking, partying and hanging out fests happen there. Given the numbers, no public showers, inadequate sanitation, real emergency evacuation issues, etc... But people dig it - good enough for me.
There are several differences, the main being the RS is on private property, not public property. Therefore, the County's liability is quite different.

I respectfully disagree on Sanitation. I've camped at the Rubicon Springs 5 times this summer, including the 60th Annual Jeepers Jamboree. There are bathrooms galore and I have not spotted one white or brown flower anywhere around camp or on several small hikes.


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The "attractive nuisance" that may have existed at LS is/was manageable, political ambitions....no so much.
Completely agree.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:46 AM   #231 (permalink)
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Okay I've overviewed most of the comments on here but not all and thoroughly so keep that in mind.... I want to try to keep this short and sweet!

The studies from water board found NO water issues in or near little sluice...

So why is the little sluice being "reduced under a water abatement order? And why has it not been overturned...

Now i was heavily involved and went to every meeting i could up to 2 yrs ago when work took me out of town with long hrs. I also have been on the trail for 30 yrs and seen many things/changes.

I was at that meeting that this was talked about and voted on by board of supervisors!!! Jack Sweeney after public comments where closed added onto one of the options to "reduce little sluice" because of nuisance or not family atmosphere...

Heres the deal yes early 2000s where crazy at box (i was there) and somewhat out of control but thats what cops are for to punish individual user that is not responsible!!! Not take away trail or section of trail from entire public!

Now yes some big weekends get more party than others but anyone with common sense knows that if they have family and want to go to rubicon go on not holiday weekends if they want to get long hrs of sleep and have piece, or camp 100 yards up or down trail!

Now second thing is bypass open right above sluice still and will it be?

If the bypass above little sluice is open then that is a path for moderate rigs like Jack weeny wants!
And leaves a 100' of trail for users that want to responsibly challenge them selves!!!!

Now soup bowl if they eliminate it because of safety or possible roll over.....

Well no common sense with that what so ever!!!!!!! Ive seen rigs roll on almost every section of trail! That is challenge of rubicon that is why it is a trail its a challenge large or small it is there are hazards involved we want to keep it that way not turn it into a highway!!!! There are plenty of safe highways in the sierra's! I suggest anyone that doesn't want to roll or scratch ur rig go there and leave rubicon alone.

Now all that being said I DO NOT want to see one rock split, cold cracked, blasted, or moved.

Reasons:

Sets precedence for future work on trail that that is okay and also that it is okay and can be done to any trail in US

Affects moral of users!

Takes away our liberties- section of trail to challenge more capable rigs

Which in turn hurts the economy and 4x4 shops do to users wanting rig modified to go through the box and repairs to rig because damage from box.

Makes it okay look okay to public to do those things move rock etc.

Last but not least! Work is mandated to be done by water abatement order which in turn has nothing to do with a water issue in that area!!!!

I hope and pray at worst case a professional is brought in to reconfigure the rocks for 2 possible lines and only rock gets placed in box!!! Again worst case only! !!!

Honestly Little Sluice Should Be Left Alone!!

My bad for assuming that the Little Sluice part of this water abatement order would have been overturned by now by people of power or lawyers of blue ribbon or cal4wheel or FOTR etc. but then again maybe i missed something or maybe a certain influence has stopped you from doing so because he is over stepping his powers and threatening or bribing in which case im sorry u listened to threat or took bribe because his pockets are the ones getting filled and you just potentially took something from the entire world that can possibly never be replaced!

I welcome corrections if I am wrong with facts supporting only!

And NO BS because most important thing of all users big small like little sluice or hate little sluice, WE need to stick together not fight each-other because they WIN when we fight or irresponsibly use the trail!!! Keep that in mind!!!

Closing words i hope that those that have been dreaming of conquering little sluice or have it on there bucket list to still get to full fill that! The idea is everyones interests not one certain interests! As trail lies right now i think it fulfills all interests! So quit being selfish and give not take!!!!

Lets all stand together! And not fight eachother!
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:52 AM   #232 (permalink)
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I respectfully disagree, Craig, especially when private citizens appear to be representing more than just themselves; accountability should follow.
I'd like to see the details in the sunlight ...or we could just let this be ugly infighting, accusations without information, suspicions without substance.

Ryan, I doubt that everything you know has been posted, and truly hope I'm wrong. If you know more than has been posted, it would be the worst sort of hypocrisy.

Randii (not in the LS planning 'loop' and just fine with that)
Sorry for the multi-post deficiency Randy, missed this one.

You reminded me of a Seinfeld episode that I watched for the hundredth time the other night. "Festivous" (sp?). Earlier this year there was a multi-page memorial to a tree. Who would have thought? This thread is simply another airing of grievances on a very serious specific issue, and further, where trail management/volunteerism goes hereto forward. And though you chose to characterize these grievances as you have in this post, given your history of walking away from the same screwed up system, may rise to the most alarming hypocrisy. Fair enough?

There is going to be a new "loop" and I do hope it always would include you.
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Old 09-27-2012, 08:58 AM   #233 (permalink)
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Emergency injunction against county to halt work until it can be discussed in public ?????
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:00 AM   #234 (permalink)
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There are several differences, the main being the RS is on private property, not public property. Therefore, the County's liability is quite different.
Little Sluice is on Federal Land (so it is much like private land in the eyes of the county - liability wise) and the attractive nuisance liability spills over onto the County Road via the easement, no different than RS.

Without going into more dirty details - said it before, say it again, some people better be careful what they wish for.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:07 AM   #235 (permalink)
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Little Sluice is on Federal Land (so it is much like private land in the eyes of the county - liability wise)
I'm no lawyer.....but once the easement was in place, 100% of the responsibility, is now on the County. Which was the point, to define exactly who was responsible for the CAO compliance.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:14 AM   #236 (permalink)
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Craig, Rubicon Springs works closely with the County with several permits, and does a fair amount of additional work above and beyond, just in case the spotlight gets turned on them by the anti's. They could just rest on their laurels of traditional use, going back more than a century, but they don't. They don't have flush toilets or leach fields (they'd need more permits), but they have a fleet of ... umm... regularly maintained rustic outhouses and an expanding set of more modern facilities. The Springs pays an onsite caretaker to manage facilities and oversee the property, so IMHO it compares poorly to Little Sluice. Sure, several weekends a year, there are large parties, and they pay peace officers to come in and supervise, and have a massive staff of monitors, service, and cleaners. Rubicon Springs is managed -- granted not perfectly.

FWIW, I don't think the Sluice is any more of an 'attractive nuisance' than downtown Placerville, the Cameron Park skate facility, or the Tahoe overlook off 50... the difference is management. Little Sluice has has very little management and even less access, and the anti's have been working industriously and consistently to register complaints -- they show up and work the process. With minimal organized volunteer support at the Sluice, the writing has sadly been on the wall for more than a decade, even with FOTR and RTF working to minimize changes... and this last two years, the writing has been in the County Record, as well. I agree with you that "the 'attractive nuisance' that may have existed at LS is/was manageable." Sadly, it is/was not.

Some of the people that have quacked the loudest in this thread knew all about this, and elected not to do anything in a timely manner... and are now working to stir dissent and resentment in the final minutes of the final hour. They could have worked proactively to help manage the area, but their efforts seem focused on reactively railing against the goobermint. Hell, agencies are easy targets, they generally move slowly with regular process flaws, but just blasting the agency does little to help the resource at Little Sluice.

Regardless of what happens at Little Sluice (or perhaps because of it?), I hope users wake up and see more clearly that if they don't manage themselves AND participate in agency management (either directly or with representatives), the anti-OHV activists will continue more often than not to run the table... and that some folks here will groove on 'playing victim' and whipping up drama. Zooming *way* out to look at this, that's the biggest payoff I see, egoes and drama... with little productive action.

I've tried to help from within, from the back, and from the front, now I'm trying to help from the outside 'the loop' -- I talk to people, try to stay informed, and try to keep my club and friends/acquaintences informed, while I volunteer and donate. I've looked in the mirror, and am Zen with my ego and my karma... and I don't see much hypocrisy in that mirror, but that always come down to opinion and perspective. I've got thick skin, though, and I'm willing to answer questions as best I know, instead of avoiding the issues. Love me or hate me, if you ask, I'll pretty much always answer... that's my gift (and my curse).

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Old 09-27-2012, 09:17 AM   #237 (permalink)
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The studies from water board found NO water issues in or near little sluice...

So why is the little sluice being "reduced under a water abatement order? And why has it not been overturned...
The CAO has 3 compliance issues. Sediment, Hazardous soils and human feces.

The Little Sluice issues, as far as the rock being dropped, falls into Category 2(soils). We KNOW what would be found, if that soil was fully tested...I don't think we want to go there. So by dropping rock, the county is avoiding to split most of the rocks in order to raise the road well over the dirt.

Remember...the CAO doesn't specifically say anything about the Little Sluice....but it also doesn't say the County has to build or where to build water bars for sediment. It legally can't tell the County HOW to deal with it...only what to deal with.

So...for the 3 items..

1) Water bars, bridges and Energy Dissipators are for sediment.

2) Bathrooms, and the RTF Poo Truck (Rubicon Trail Foundation) for feces

3) Additional rock in LS for hazardous soils.


The attractive nuisance part of it.....obviously isn't in the CAO.


If you haven't seen it in action.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:25 AM   #238 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=atvobsession;14837526]Hazardous soils.

The Little Sluice issues.... We KNOW what would be found, if that soil was fully tested...I don't think we want to go there. So by dropping rock, the county is avoiding to split most of the rocks in order to raise the road well over the dirt.
/QUOTE]

OMG... you did just go there.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:26 AM   #239 (permalink)
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I said "I" don't think..
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:30 AM   #240 (permalink)
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Is that the broken one LOL!

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Old 09-27-2012, 09:43 AM   #241 (permalink)
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Is that the broken one LOL!

KC
Nope. That photo is like 2-3 weeks old.
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Old 09-27-2012, 09:53 AM   #242 (permalink)
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This action of dropping rocks. Who is behind it? Jack and the county, Right?

But mostly Jack, right?
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:23 AM   #243 (permalink)
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Overall? RTF, jack the county....

Let see... close access to spyder, build some cabins on spyder, complaing about noise from sluice close to spyder, get county to pave sluice. Get nice and quiet at illeagel non permited cabins at spyder lake. Id say get rid of the non permited cabins also!
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Old 09-27-2012, 10:28 AM   #244 (permalink)
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*Until the rocks fell there, it was not an experience, just a part of the trail with a name.

Little sluice has ALWAYS been an experience.


*Its been 20 years since then, get over it.

Wow, just wow. This statement is so two faced.


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I think I've seen people talk about what portion of users wants this or that.
Some people say most folks want the box AS IS. Some folks say that's not true, that a ton of people want it smashed.

Well, the most recent poll has overwhelming numbers:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...uice-poll.html

Just thought I'd toss this in here to provide some numbers.
It is laughable that you guys think a poll on Pirate is actually representative of "users":laughing :
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:04 AM   #245 (permalink)
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It is laughable that you guys think a poll on Pirate is actually representative of "users":laughing :
I agree, there were 410 people that took part of that poll. I think there may be 10,000 users anually that visit the trail. Many of those may be repeates but 410 users is only 4% of the people who use the trail.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:06 AM   #246 (permalink)
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It is laughable that you guys think a poll on Pirate is actually representative of "users":laughing :
Its sad but i agree this is a pretty biased place for that. But what ever a poll here dosnt mean crap anyway
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:09 AM   #247 (permalink)
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This site has so many ***swingers that plenty of level headed folks stay away, or just lurk.

A poll here about keeping sluice hard core is akin to going to a gay parade & polling public opinion on gay marriage.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:28 AM   #248 (permalink)
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So, where is the better poll/place?

The crowd in here is very diverse and of all age groups, tire sizes, years of use and backgrounds.

FOTR, RTF, Trail Patrol, all started here.
All work party announcements....here.
I could go on and on, this is the main and only hub for everything Rubicon related that I know of....

That poll is old and I would bet that the outcome would be even more different today.

I think I was one of those 11 wanting the box gone in that poll. I had tried to get the box temporarily closed in '04. If I would have succeeded, I doubt the trail would not have large equipment on it now. I HATE the big party's that happened there, I HATE the trash, Poop, and idiotic behavior that was happening there. Most of that is now under control and if the guys that like to challenge themselves cant go to a spot that is easily managed like the sluice box, where are they going to go?
By keeping the box, we are avoiding problems in other places on the trail (more rock moving, artificial challenges, etc.) and saving the rest of the trail......think about it, everyone need somewhere to go, why leave all the thrill seekers to find and possibly alter/destroy another place on the trail.
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:34 AM   #249 (permalink)
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Overall? RTF, jack the county....

Let see... close access to spyder, build some cabins on spyder, complaing about noise from sluice close to spyder, get county to pave sluice. Get nice and quiet at illeagel non permited cabins at spyder lake. Id say get rid of the non permited cabins also!
Seriously, who is likely to be the person on site Friday directing where rocks go...not the person doing it but the person who directed or is directing it? Do we know that?

Bebe???
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Old 09-27-2012, 11:50 AM   #250 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NOTPRETTY View Post
Seriously, who is likely to be the person on site Friday directing where rocks go...not the person doing it but the person who directed or is directing it? Do we know that?

Bebe???
People with ties or intrests in said cabins will be the likely ones directing. They are there to do a job of makeing it easier and less crowded. Think they will listen to what the said party group wants? I dont think so.
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