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Old 09-24-2012, 07:19 PM   #51 (permalink)
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That is not going to please everyone all the time, it is what it is.



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Old 09-24-2012, 07:48 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Having a trail is number one, trail experience has to play second fiddle to the trail being open.
You do know that the "trail" starts in Georgetown right. It is a connector from G-Town to Tahoe.
It used to be all dirt, now it is pavement all the way to the Wentworth entrance, with bridges (that happen to have .gov names on them, just like Sweeney is doing). Loon has become a more modern route, also with pavement.

So tell me, when it is entirely a paved road with a street sign named "The Rubicon Trail", will you and RTF still be happy to have a trail still? Where are the lines drawn?

Let me put this simple for you. People need an escape, some are happy with taking a subaru to a campground. We (most Rubicon users), however need a place a bit more "primitive". Open does not mean chit if it is paved or even a simple dirt road.....

So tell me, where is the line drawn?
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:53 PM   #53 (permalink)
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this may prove to be the hardest thing to do with the County. It has been a challenge so far. It really is not in the best interest of the County either.

Who are you speaking for in this post? RTF?
You do realize that RTF HAS THE DECIDING COUNTY MEMBER ON THE RTF BOARD RIGHT?

HTF can you be effective fighting amongst yourselves? Especially with many other board members owning property on the trail, with un-permitted buildings.... I cant imagine that those people would go against anything the county would recommend...... just a simple observation.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:35 PM   #54 (permalink)
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The above paragraph is from the County. I would hope that FOTR would step to the game and be there to move this rock.
Last I heard (this morning) FOTR had to wait for RTF approval....because you have insurance and FOTR doesn't?

So when is the work party?
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:40 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cjcraig7 View Post

31s and 42s should both be able to fully enjoy the Rubicon Trail. But, there will always be sections of trail more appropriate to one over the other, it is called sharing the resource - a concept the anti have not learned either. Though this discussion may be for not, it should serve as a wake up call that activist environmentalists are not the only enemy to particular trail use.
If you really think about it - that's really how it needs to be. I vote for 2 lines through the box. 32's and 42's. It's totally doable and everyone would lose a little, no one group would be sacrificed for the other.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:56 PM   #56 (permalink)
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What’s wrong with it how it is?
I park - watch and plan my (someday) attack …. kinda gives a guy a goal like it is.

Dude has a point ….. were will the line be drawn?
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:59 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I'm all for adding some rock to prevent erosion and keep it open, but not adding rock to pave LS (Even though my rig has not been through LS, and will probably not be in it for a long time)
x2 FOTR did this a few years back, I could not find the thread that had a great pic of where the rock needed to go. It was taken in the spring and had circles where the water was standing. Also the soil was covered with a product like Bio Cleanse to eat the oil. I would like to see some Bio Cleanse used before any rock is added to cover the soil.

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:10 PM   #58 (permalink)
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FOTR Little Sluice Work party

The Plan



Before



After

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Old 09-24-2012, 09:14 PM   #59 (permalink)
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What’s wrong with it how it is?
I park - watch and plan my (someday) attack …. kinda gives a guy a goal like it is.

Dude has a point ….. were will the line be drawn?
Nothing - In My Opinion, but the wheels have been turning for so long on this, and some have such untouchable personal agendas (Jack Sweeney) that we are where we are.

The Freight Train that is Jack Sweeney cannot be stopped.

PS I tried calling to say we weren't going to make it, we got off the hill way too late...and I could not get reception (AT&T) sorry.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:27 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Do these wise people ever consider what the place will be like when every mope with a stock suv can drive in for the day and trash the place?

Make it easy = 100 X trafic - oil - people - trash - poo - problems = closed for sure!

that’s ok… we drank ok without you
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Old 09-24-2012, 10:24 PM   #61 (permalink)
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If any of you play the "if you dont like it, go to meetings" card, I will kick you in the taint.
Kick away, Ryan, you know where I live, we've talked for hours in my driveway.

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Notice how you don't see RMK showing up with anyone or using that as an excuse on their end, and they are getting what they want.
Monte, Rich, and Karen regularly cite their ROC involvement as credentials to back up their play - attending meetings counts, and they know it. Sure, they cherry-pick their meetings, but they still make some.

Meetings is a side issue, though... if you wanted to address this at a Board of Supervisors meeting, you've waited VERY late in the game, but they are meeting tomorrow: County of El Dorado - Calendar Take it there if you want to make meaningful action... or just discuss it here if you only want to add drama. Drama means clicks, so PBB makes money, but does this drama benefit Rubicon Trail?

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Honestly, I have no idea why you like to play cheerleader for RTF anyway....
I comment on the truth, as I see it. Sometimes that's FOTR, sometimes RTF, sometimes the truth I see matches neitherm but I call 'em like I see 'em. Of course, that means I have to show up at some of the meetings...

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Old 09-24-2012, 10:25 PM   #62 (permalink)
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............
The Freight Train that is Jack Sweeney cannot be stopped.
This is always a double edged sword..... think of how many trails, road and offroad areas that lacked a supervisor with an agenda, vested interest or appreciation to some extent and were lost due to no internal pushing for investment of time, money and resources to saving them. battling the anti's, the USFS, BLM etc isnt easy or cheap. I look around all over the country and can recall hundres of trails i used to use that never had someone pushing to do even a fraction of what El dorado county has done to try and keep some semblance of this open.

we can only hope the new lawsuit avenue makes some headway challenging the recent court ruling. giving us a new avenue to challenge the reckless management practies of the FS and BLM etc. until then we all can grow frustrated with the changes that we agree and disagree with and wish we had been a little more effective at communicating and convincing the powers to be that there might have been another option. A few years ago i remember when it was a danagerous reality that the whole trail would be changed to a greater extent than what ended up being approved. the catch is that those who approved the plan are elected and they are elected to represent and manage the county, the funds and the resources the county has in their arsenal..... how come no one else ran for one of the sup positions to sit next to jack and produce another perspective during this process?

sometimes we on the outside are like a circular firing squad.


What really gets me is there is more conversation about 100 yards of trail that was user modified and created vs the other 1200 miles of "user created trails" that many actually were mapped roads back int he 1800's and early 1900's

Lick the wounds, take the beating but we should remember that the bigger battle is keeping the miles accessible vs keeping the entertainment value. i may be a minority in this but in montana and idaho this happened a decade ago and we missed the make, tried to work with them and tried to keep the receational trails open. when the end reselt was most closed and recreational 4x4 trails were the first to close. pick your battles. sacrifice a few big rocks to keep the miles or fight for 100 yards of trail while 1200 are taken away and then another 42 more trails get closed soon after. your choice .... i'll donate to a bidge on barret vs loosing the trail and i'll give up the little sluice big rocks to keep the larger trail open. alot of the blame can be placed on complacency and hoping the process will work when in reality the process doesnt include entertainment value.

in a nut shell
Men built the trail, men were charged with keeping it open, other men modified the trail for entertainment, men with an agenda to close the trail have now forced the care takers to become involved again. the men who are charged with keeping it open are again modifying the trail in an effort to keep it open..... they just dont have eyes for entertainment factors.


im all about miles first entertainment second. but then again ive been through this before. you guys in CA just didnt think what hit the PNW 14 years ago would ever come to CA


Also im going to add that im not discounting the importance of drawing a line in the sand and wish LS could be it but i think until we have a spot at the table the lines will continue to be drawn for us by those with a different perspective. and right now that perspective is smaller than what we wish would be allowed to remain, but there may be a silver lining errosion still happens and rocks still move at least we arent talking about a Gatekeeperesque type final result



Focus on the next election and getting involved. i always hear alot of bitterness btu very little of people on here actually ruinning for a office that could help this cause

Dusty
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:31 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Craig, thanks for the kind words and the benefit of the doubt. Mutually respectful discussion may deliver less page-views and/or clicks, but its gotta be more effective than others' tantrums and/or playing victim.

FWIW, I don't think Little Sluice lacks standing because of the lack of consistent, committed volunteerism, but I *do* think that such effort would have really strengthened the political case to leave it alone. I would have loved to see regular volunteer patrols, sanitation, and cleanup near Little Sluice, damn, it would have made such a statement, and I believe it could have turned the tide. I can't fathom that an agencies would have prevented volunteers from cleaning up and/or educating.

I'm no longer in the inner loop of County/FOTR/RTF, but I do know that multiple projects have been executed in the past few years through FOTR and agency alone, with no need for RTF support. That said, as far as I know, every time that FOTR has requested funding, RTF has provided it. I don't remember RTF being asked to fund any regular volunteer effort at LS... a shame, because IMHO, the RTF board would have funded it. Those volunteer hours are coin of the realm if you want to influence funding.

The workings between County and FOTR's loose-knit volunteer coalition started about a decade ago as informal involvement... that didn't always work, because the agencies sometimes wanted a more defined relationship (insurance, adopt-a-trail, grants, etc.). RTF was created, among other reasons, to help fill that gap, when needed -- and note that they're not always needed, and FOTR does work directly with the Counties when appropriate. RTF didn't create this gap, rather, it was created wholly from FOTR leaders to address this gap.

I have personally sacrificed parts and sheet metal in the 'artificially created user experience' that is Little Sluice - neither driver nor equipment were up to the LS challenge, but I believe one or the other might eventually be. I wish that users hadn't rolled boulders in, but that ship sailed in the 90s... unfortunately, the memory of it was leveraged in the Board of Supervisors meeting. I'd like to have the chance to run Sluice again without further changes to it, but rumor is that changes are soon scheduled at the Sluice. I'll participate in meaningful efforts to 'Save the Sluice' (if not excluded) -- indeed, I hope to see efforts made beyond just discussing it on PBB.

FWIW, I hope that future changes on the trail will have the public input (or even more!) that the last few years has seen with respect to Rubicon. Volunteers, property owners, non-profit officers, and commercial interests are working together... it isn't perfect, but it is an effective start, and I hope public accountability and participation continues to increase. It is the only way, IMHO, that such different factions can come together and manage *our* Rubicon Trail. 'Sunlight is the best disinfectant' -- I think that applies equally well to politics and discourse on/about Rubicon. We do need to share this incredible resource, and that means sharing the load to manage it, as well... all segments of trail users need to make their voice heard.

Quote:
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Unite, find purpose, give respect, fight.
I very much like this quote, and very much hope that trail users can do these all, preferably in that order. Sometimes it seems like we just jump to the last item (fight), but we're more effective when we work together on the first three (unite, purpose, respect)) and THEN deliver on the last one, fighting together, like we did at the Water Board.

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Old 09-25-2012, 07:11 AM   #64 (permalink)
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ddestruel is right the political process is horrible but necessary. out here our supervisors and representatives recognize the commercial interests and tax revenue that all the various trails provide to local businesses. there is a certain amount of give and take and looking the other way on both sides. sometimes they allow things like illegal buildings or building modifications othertimes the oposite is true and when a small section of trail is modified or repaired/closed do not throw up too large a fight. not saying tossing in the towel is right but when push comes to shove the guys who are standing up to the feds, getting results and managing these trails out here keeping them open are your elected officials. if you want it done differently you guys need to run for office and get involved in the process. A dear friend of mine out here in utah had to finally rin for office because all to often those in power werent recognizing or understanding the importance of his position on certain arguements and 10 minutes at a meeting or a 1 page letter leaves little room for true dialogue and continued persuasion

to hear you guys squable about special interests and commercial interests being the problem is too bad. illegal buildings or building modifications etc seems like its entirely missing the point those guys may be getting special priviliges or the county may be looking the other way on them but for a reason they create a commercial need or claim to access that they can use as footing for further arguement, but those people also are closer to the representative too since they have a vested interest. letter of the law vs spirit of the law, it is not always applied uniformly and is left to the enforcing officer's discretion. pick the right fights not the wrong ones. squabling over small battles instead of challenging the bigger problem of mass trail closures is where you guys need to band together. errosion will happen again once these trails are closed you guys will have lost everything.

Didnt i just hear about something like 40 more trials and 1200 miles of dirt roads being closed. correct me if im wrong you have a trail called baret lake and deer valley where is or are your county supervisors battling over these trails? publicity etc. see teh problem your supervisors can invest the county in challenging the closer and they have claim to wanting them to be kept open but without more representatives who understand you or are you ....... you guys are screwed.


I always wanted to bring my 4 runner out and run LS but alass i guess i'll be running a smaller version of it, at least they fought to keep some access for you. Im sorry to hear about your plight our battles have shifted heavily to federal attempts to close us off. thank goodness for all the commercial interests out here who support the elections and provide us with an additional voice and group of users otherwise i fear we'd be in your shoes watching it all slip away
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:46 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I'm probably on my own here but the only thing that upsets me about this is the fact that the end users of the trail were not asked for ideas on how to "fill in the box".

The little sluice has been talked about being filled in for what, 15 years? It's been as long as that one rock was moved/fallen into it.
We spent so much time and effort into telling the county to leave it alone, I feel if we the user offered up other solutions other then stomping our feet and saying no, we might be in a different place right now.

While the Rubicon is still my favorite trail, I'm finding I'm having more fun on smaller lesser known trails just to escape the politics.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:02 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I'm probably on my own here but the only thing that upsets me about this is the fact that the end users of the trail were not asked for ideas on how to "fill in the box".

The little sluice has been talked about being filled in for what, 15 years? It's been as long as that one rock was moved/fallen into it.
We spent so much time and effort into telling the county to leave it alone, I feel if we the user offered up other solutions other then stomping our feet and saying no, we might be in a different place right now.

While the Rubicon is still my favorite trail, I'm finding I'm having more fun on smaller lesser known trails just to escape the politics.
We did Mark. We offered solutions, we asked to sit down and be a part of the team.

We were blown off entirely.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:04 AM   #67 (permalink)
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We did Mark. We offered solutions, we asked to sit down and be a part of the team.

We were blown off entirely.
Damn, I missed that, but all I ever hear about are the no people who seem to be the loudest.
That's very upsetting.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:46 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Can anyone tell me for certain when they doing the work on Little Sluice? If I was there Thursday, would I be able to run it before they start? Thanks.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:56 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Can anyone tell me for certain when they doing the work on Little Sluice? If I was there Thursday, would I be able to run it before they start? Thanks.
If you were there early Thursday - all we know is the Chopper is arriving on Friday to drop - they won't give us anything for certain.
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Old 09-25-2012, 11:08 AM   #70 (permalink)
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If you were there early Thursday - all we know is the Chopper is arriving on Friday to drop - they won't give us anything for certain.
Thank you sir! If anyone hears anything else, I would appreciate hearing from you.
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Old 09-25-2012, 12:41 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I'm probably on my own here but the only thing that upsets me about this is the fact that the end users of the trail were not asked for ideas on how to "fill in the box".
You aren't on your own, Mark -- I've heard other people say that, too.

IMHO, the County *has* listened. Discussion at the Board of Supervisors meeting two years ago was all about 'reducing the rocks' by blasting. Continued commentary and participation has reframed that discussion more to 'infill' than to 'blasting.' Blasting is the absolutely least expensive solution, but it is immutable and irreversible. Infill, on the other hand, is EXPENSIVE. It also allows Mother Nature and travel to keep moving the big rocks to the top... something that happens all along the trail every year.

Who has been in on those discussions? Well, many of the folks blasted earlier in this thread... commercial interests, property owners, foundation folks, friends folks, association folks, and independents. Some of these discussions have been in meetings, some have been in stop-in-visits to the County, and others have been phone calls and emails -- you can indeed influence your government in the off hours. There's a group of folks who didn't just quit after the Board of Supervisors voted, and the less destructive solution today is a result of their persistence.

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We spent so much time and effort into telling the county to leave it alone, I feel if we the user offered up other solutions other then stomping our feet and saying no, we might be in a different place right now.
You're right.
While the 'no people' were stomping, threatening or being apathetic, other folks were talking... and it seems to me like the County listened. Rumor suggests that we'll see for sure within the week.

Randii

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Old 09-25-2012, 01:30 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Can anyone tell me for certain when they doing the work on Little Sluice? If I was there Thursday, would I be able to run it before they start? Thanks.
I'd hate to hear that you broke down in the middle of LS.


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Old 09-25-2012, 01:41 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I'd hate to hear that you broke down in the middle of LS.


i was thinking my fuel pump may starve and leave me stuck in LS
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:52 PM   #74 (permalink)
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All this comes down to this IMO:

Should this rig have a place to be challenged on the Rubicon trail:

I got that picture randomly off the internet. I hope its nobody's actual rig involved here. That was not my intention. I just wanted a visual.

The real question for a guy like Bear is, why can't people with this rig be challenged and have fun too. Why do you have to take away to one place a rig like that does get challenged. Why can't their be a balance? This action planned at Sluice will take away that opportunity and balance. IMO Jack doesn't want that rig on the rubicon. IMO, Jack see's that rig and typical owners of rigs like it as the problem to be solved. He has the power to do so and is. Remember, when they showed up all the problems started, right? That is true, but its just not that simple either, some twenty years later.

Jacks not a terrible guy either. I also believe that Jack might even support the idea of creating a place for rigs like that somewhere on county land even in and around the Rubicon trail. I have heard him even say that before and believe him when he said it. Two problems exist however...Jack is retiring and that likely will never happen out side of his power. And, the reality is the FS/Water board/and likely county lawyers advising Jack on liability exposure would never let that happen. So that is why guys with that type of rig are sad to see this go and much of the crowd that view's that rig as the problem are thrilled. Fact is, this is more about an internal fight than anything to do with maintenance or the longterm survival of the trail. Its about how the trail is maintained and for what type of rig it is maintained for and yes, in part for sticking it to those guys who are getting blamed for all the problems.

The unfortunate history of parties, and boulder rolling is not helping owners of that type of rig. That and the fact that many old school JJ types still burn over the fact that a bunch of young whipper snappers took technology and built rigs that made their 33" jeeps look silly. So, they are bad...all of them and they have to go...and slowly they are. But, in time, evolution always wins. Balance will be found again. Those rigs exist and will find a challenge and then we all need to settle in for a huge fight that will split the community even more...an outright ban of those rigs based on characteristic of that type of vehicle. All the while the real opposition of RMK laugh at us.

In my opinion, this action will not solve what they think it will. It will just redevelop elsewhere...Big Sluice, Old Sluice, Wentworth... Why not just work with these rig owners, build a place to let them play, get off sticking it to those fun loving party guys who got skillz. Its nothing more than skaters...build them a skate park, let them play and do it smart.
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Last edited by NOTPRETTY; 09-25-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 09-25-2012, 02:02 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Its gonna be a shame WHEN another big rock "rolls" into the sluice...the people will get what they want.

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