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Old 09-25-2012, 02:10 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Randii...

I love the debate process...you know. And, I know you pretty well, too. So, I have to ask. Do you really believe the Jeep USA/JJ/Jack thing is really a red herring?

You said...paraphrasing...they haven't used sluice for years...they don't care...its a non issue....

Hmmm. What do you think the front page marketing flyer pictures will show after the sluice is crossable for the JJ crowd...

I'm betting it will show a jeep going through Little Sluice and a big ballon saying its back!!! Want to bet?

Just because they have not used sluice for years, doesn't mean they don't want to use it, don't care anymore and cannot benefit significantly and financially from it.

Peace and love
MA
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:33 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Miss you Marlon.....
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:11 PM   #78 (permalink)
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NOTPRETTY: Should this rig have a place to be challenged on the Rubicon trail...
IMHO YES! (I can't speak for Jack)
That said, should we change the trail to meet the needs of buggies to the exclusion of other users? NO! You nailed it, Marlon, balance is required...

NOTPRETTY: Remember, when they showed up all the problems started, right? That is true, but its just not that simple either, some twenty years later
Correlation is not equal to causation. I know I'm preaching to the choir on this one.

NOTPRETTY: Fact is, this is more about an internal fight than anything to do with maintenance or the longterm survival of the trail. Its about how the trail is maintained and for what type of rig it is maintained for...
Yup, that's what it boils down to, and it seems that the guys with small tires show up MORE and participate in planning MORE and thus have greater influence, no matter how hard RTF and FOTR lobby to keep a wide range of user experience, including challenges. More than a few RTF directors/officers have pretty big tires, IIRC.

I hope it never comes to banning buggies... that's pretty much what RMK has been pushing (street-legal restrictions). We all know it is more vehicle than driver, but we seem always to be willing to chase the mechanical rabbit of vehicle restrictions round and round the track while RM point and laugh.

NOTPRETTY: In my opinion, this action will not solve what they think it will. It will just redevelop elsewhere...
I fully agree... or worse yet, somebody will roll larger rocks into the trail and force the County's hand to start blasting, enhance enforcement, or install a friggin' gate. I'd love to see a 'skater park' developed for greater challenge, and have asked USFS to provide quarry access, but that was a dead end... the challenge is this: some existing use always seems to wind up displaced.

NOTPRETTY: Do you really believe the Jeep USA/JJ/Jack thing is really a red herring?
Lumped all together, no -- but the middle part of that sandwich is, IMHO. Jamboree pushes vehicles to take a bypass at Little Sluice, but allows participants to run Sluice if they want. LS adds to the 'brand value' of the trail (another reason why the County should minimize changes), and commercial interests BENEFIT from that, even if they don't take participants THROUGH it. I can't speak to JJUSA or to Jack himself, but I honestly believe that Jeep Jamboree and Jeepers Jamboree have moved pretty much to run-whatcha-brung, and I haven't seen them push small tires in a while.

NOTPRETTY: I'm betting it will show a jeep going through Little Sluice and a big ballon saying its back!!! Want to bet?
I'll bet some of your ribs against that full-paid spread at Cattleman's that Kevin is trying to weasel out of me. I hope commercial parties would be bright enough not to use an artificially-increased, then artificially-decreased resource to sell their product.

Marlon, you do have a good point that just because they have not used sluice for years, doesn't mean they don't want to use it, don't care anymore and cannot benefit significantly and financially from it... but in the meetings I have attended, their representatives haven't been pressing that agenda. Certain retired folks who are no longer financially related to the commercial interests do press that agenda, though, but not JJ, JsJ, or JJUSA that I've recently seen.

Good to hear from you, man!

Randii

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Old 09-25-2012, 04:32 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Wouldn't it be easier just to put gates up at both ends?

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Old 09-25-2012, 05:25 PM   #80 (permalink)
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NOTPRETTY: Should this rig have a place to be challenged on the Rubicon trail...
IMHO YES!

Marlon, you do have a good point that just because they have not used sluice for years, doesn't mean they don't want to use it, don't care anymore and cannot benefit significantly and financially from it... but in the meetings I have attended, their representatives haven't been pressing that agenda. Certain retired folks who are no longer financially related to the commercial interests do press that agenda, though, but not JJ, JsJ, or JJUSA that I've recently seen.

Good to hear from you, man!

Randii

That too is an issue for the JJ, JsJ, or JJUSA they need a trail that supports both 31 and 42 or they will lose money in the long run.
A guy buys a stock Rubicon jeep with lockers and all the goods from the factory. That jeep will run over some of the most difficult trails out there in stock form. Making a trail that does not provide a challenge above what the that stock jeep can do, leaves the paid participant thinking, I've done everything that trail has to offer and might not come back for another jambo. That 100' section give them that brand name like you said.

I would like to see a trail that supports all types of users. From 8" and up.
I just took my Honda 50 up there and it only has 8" tires
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:42 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Its gonna be a shame WHEN another big rock "rolls" into the sluice...the people will get what they want.

Dane
Work the process! We will have a clean slate, once the COA is lifted We need to start on a plan now on what the trail will become.
There is plenty of trail to support all type of users.

Somebody rolls a rock in and the next somebody rolls it off a cliff, we just fighting amongst our self then.
I would rather see FOTR build in some trail obstacles, this way maybe the center is narrow so a stock CJ2 can still fit, you got bigger axles and tires it going to be a lot harder.
I remember the old gate keeper and how hard it was. But I watched a guy in a sammi just drive around the boulders. So it is possible to have a trail work for many users.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:44 PM   #82 (permalink)
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NOTPRETTY: Should this rig have a place to be challenged on the Rubicon trail...
IMHO YES! (I can't speak for Jack)
That said, should we change the trail to meet the needs of buggies to the exclusion of other users? NO! You nailed it, Marlon, balance is required...
How do you create balance with a statement like..."Not to the exclustion of the other." You cannot make a section that is challenging to 42's and is accessable to 33's. They are mutually exclusive. By saying that.... you are siding 100% with the 33's. So, are you saying we should maintain the trail for 33's and the 42's are welcome, but good luck having any fun. I don't see balance there at all.


I am saying its okay to create areas that 33's can't go through that are entertaining to 42's as long as their are by-passes or alternate routes. No it doesn't have to be sluice, but somewhere on the trail. I'm not even saying it has to be large...heck 5-10% is fine, but I think there needs to be something. You are saying the trail should be 100% fun for 33's and 0% fun for 42's? This fails to account for a significant number of the rigs on the trail. You seem to be saying that's okay because the 33's group shows up and is louder. I don't see balance in that. And, it fails to address the reality of what is out there on the trail.



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NOTPRETTY: Fact is, this is more about an internal fight than anything to do with maintenance or the longterm survival of the trail. Its about how the trail is maintained and for what type of rig it is maintained for...[/COLOR]
Yup, that's what it boils down to, and it seems that the guys with small tires show up MORE and participate in planning MORE and thus have greater influence, no matter how hard RTF and FOTR lobby to keep a wide range of user experience, including challenges. More than a few RTF directors/officers have pretty big tires, IIRC.


Good to hear from you, man!

Randii
Hmmm... I disagree here. This is not about who shows up or not. Its not about who put in more hours and who didn't. That does not make them more right. Simple as this... If Jack was inclined to be a 42's guy, this would not be happening.


Thanks
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:28 PM   #83 (permalink)
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How do you create balance with a statement like..."Not to the exclustion of the other." You cannot make a section that is challenging to 42's and is accessable to 33's.
Nor can you make a section that is challenging to 33s and not pretty damn boring to 42s. I'm not siding with either extreme, they both have valid perspectives. I'm just asking that folks not automatically exclude others, whether small tire guys excluding big tire guys or big tire guys excluding small tire guys. Exclusion is the same root problem, no matter which direction you approach it.

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I am saying its okay to create areas that 33's can't go through that are entertaining to 42's as long as their are by-passes or alternate routes.
I support this, and think it can be achieved -- Craig nailed it, though, we need to work the process. Building it on your own without DOT approval ain't an option.

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You are saying the trail should be 100% fun for 33's and 0% fun for 42's?
I don't think I said that -- I definitely didn't mean that. It needs to be *OPEN* for all 4x4s and OHVs, and provide a good experience to most of them. You already said it, Marlon -- *balance*. FWIW, I agree with your signature -- we need a more centrist approach in Washington, and on the Rubicon. Personally, I'd like to see that centrist balance skew a bit toward the difficult side, making it very difficult for 31" tires to get through without excellent driving skills. How far to the difficult side, that's what we need to work the process to find.

It ain't always about who shows up and is louder... but sometimes it is. I'm not saying that's right, I'm just saying what I see, after many years of showing up and trying to present perspectives of ALL trail users. It sure would help for more folks to SHOW UP, I believe.

We can crucify Jack and make it about him... there may be some element of truth to that, but I've seen him listen to advisors and the public, and change directions. I'm sad that so many folks are willing to rage against the machine, but so few tried to work their government.

Randii

Last edited by randii; 09-25-2012 at 07:30 PM. Reason: added a thought about Marlon's 'centrist' signature
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:44 PM   #84 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=randii;14827348]Ryan, this was decided at a Board of Supervisors meeting, and could easily be brought back there for further discussion... some of the points you've made make some sense. It would be a stronger case if there was a track record of strong volunteer presence focused right there, but that hasn't happened.
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Old 09-25-2012, 07:57 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Tire size is a pathetic argument.
I have 4 jeeps ranging from 31's to 44's, from 100hp to 500+hp, I understand where i can enjoy each type of vehicle and I don't expect others to make it easier or more difficult just to appease my pocketbook or driving skill. Any of my rigs can run the Rubicon with relative ease. I understand that I might have to bypass the harder area's in my smaller rigs and I am OK with that.

Randy, you have clearly stated and proved that RTF is useless. You also have pointed out that we (the users) do not have a voice unless each individual has time, energy, and money to attend each and every meeting to voice their opinions. I was under the influence that RTF was OUR voice, I was clearly mistaken.

I had previously placed faith in RTF to keep the trail as is and we can't even get a decent discussion or involvement from any of them about this very important subject.
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:07 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Ryan, this was decided at a Board of Supervisors meeting, and could easily be brought back there for further discussion... some of the points you've made make some sense. It would be a stronger case if there was a track record of strong volunteer presence focused right there, but that hasn't happened.
if this is true im sure there is a lot of clubs that would like to adopt that part of the trail. the rock heads for one. I personaly will not help lift one rock to help fill LS or help cook for anyone that does!!!
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:15 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Sometimes all the "good" a man thinks hes doing is merely a mirage..... the trail was fine loong before RTF amd FOTR and OHV committes it was left alone and respected... I grew up on it ... I cut my teeth behind the wheel of a cj-7 on LS yet now everyone thinks they are helping out for the good of the trail..... I fail to see that...a mans good intentions are often his dismise... LEAVE IT ALONE..

to BEAR you are correct and my hats off to you...
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:23 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Sometimes all the "good" a man thinks hes doing is merely a mirage..... the trail was fine loong before RTF amd FOTR and OHV committes it was left alone and respected... I grew up on it ... I cut my teeth behind the wheel of a cj-7 on LS yet now everyone thinks they are helping out for the good of the trail..... I fail to see that...a mans good intentions are often his dismise...

to BEAR you are correct and my hats off to you...
i agree
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:27 PM   #89 (permalink)
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ive been volunteering for over 8yrs, im starting to wonder if it is to line someone elses pockets
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Old 09-25-2012, 08:45 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Randy, you have clearly stated and proved that RTF is useless.
Pretty impressive, since I haven't been an officer or director for some time. You do love to rant, Ryan.

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You also have pointed out that we (the users) do not have a voice unless each individual has time, energy, and money to attend each and every meeting to voice their opinions.
Nope. It ain't up to EVERY individual, but it is up to SOME. Find someone who you trust to represent you, and try to get them to go speak for you. I can't keep track of whether you want RTF to speak for you or you DON'T... it seems to alternate?

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...a lot of clubs that would like to adopt that part of the trail. the rock heads for one.
Adopt-a-trail (AAT) is challenging, since the County has said previously that they can't do AAT unless the organization 'adopting' has a certain level of organization... FOTR didn't make the cut, which is one of the many reasons FOTR folks banded together to create RTF. Maybe a 501(c)(7) social or recreational club would be enough -- dunno.

I'm out for the day, this has been too uncomfortably reminiscent of the vicious feeding frenzy of two years ago... with trail users tearing up other trail users. I've always thought that openly sharing information is the best way to defuse problems, and that sunlight is indeed the best disinfectant. It sure doesn't look much like that today. Certainly, some of this for the future is my opinion, but most all of it from the past is plain fact.

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Old 09-25-2012, 09:03 PM   #91 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=randii;14832066]Pretty impressive, since I haven't been an officer or director for some time. You do love to rant, Ryan.


Nope. It ain't up to EVERY individual, but it is up to SOME. Find someone who you trust to represent you, and try to get them to go speak for you. I can't keep track of whether you want RTF to speak for you or you DON'T... it seems to alternate?


we need RTF... but restructured, i feel there is to many people on the board that has a conflict of interest for us wheelers! and our true interests
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:16 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Randii...

I love the debate process...you know. And, I know you pretty well, too. So, I have to ask. Do you really believe the Jeep USA/JJ/Jack thing is really a red herring?

You said...paraphrasing...they haven't used sluice for years...they don't care...its a non issue....

Hmmm. What do you think the front page marketing flyer pictures will show after the sluice is crossable for the JJ crowd...

I'm betting it will show a jeep going through Little Sluice and a big ballon saying its back!!! Want to bet?

Just because they have not used sluice for years, doesn't mean they don't want to use it, don't care anymore and cannot benefit significantly and financially from it.

Peace and love
MA
I am fairly sure, I know of the position that JJUSA has on LS and the use of it by their runs. They do not care to use it. So, yes, I believe the LS issue is a red herring in that context. Not sayin that if it was made smooth (I do not think it will be) enough, they would not take advantage of the opportunity (this is the good ol USA still) just saying I do not believe it is being engineered for a profit.

This is more about the CAO, the oil spilled there and the gathering of very large groups of people that have resulted in accidents, injuries and domestic issues than "making" the trail one way or another for gain.

I am not saying I agree or disagree, just that this is how I see it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:28 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Sometimes all the "good" a man thinks hes doing is merely a mirage..... the trail was fine loong before RTF amd FOTR and OHV committes it was left alone and respected... I grew up on it ... I cut my teeth behind the wheel of a cj-7 on LS yet now everyone thinks they are helping out for the good of the trail..... I fail to see that...a mans good intentions are often his dismise... LEAVE IT ALONE..

to BEAR you are correct and my hats off to you...
You know, you are right. I agree, I could certainly be happier if the trail was just left alone. The problem is, somehow a light got turned on over a decade ago. That light is shining brightly as ever today. It is the light of awareness on the part of the government.

I have spent the greater part of the last decade aligning my life around the trail. I have raised a daughter on the trail. I have many friends who have exactly your life experiences growing up on the trail.

None of that can turn off that light. So, people worked hard to be sure the light was not too bright. Fault there is??
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:32 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Captain Randii,
Eyes wide shut brother, Im going to get you some RTF pom pom's .

Why is it that you and the cool kids are trying to discredit anyone that does not agree with the way RTF is doing things?

Pay attention and read again, I have no personal interest in the "box", but as a community, we NEED it. I am sticking up for OUR community.

I continually hear about the splitting and dividing of our community that I am causing (all from RTF members, past and present), yet it is not my shoulders that people are continually let down on. I do nothing more than call it how I see it, and if I am wrong, please show me that I am. RTF might want to look in the mirror. The community as a whole has standards and they are being thrown in the trash for the sake of "having a trail". I will be honest and please pay attention again, if the Rubicon was just another dirt road, it would not have near the passion that it carries now.

I'm sure you are going to point out that i keep bringing up RTF. Well, I will explain, its because I feel betrayed by the vary people that I have trusted to be my voice. Some of them I consider close friends! RTF is at every meeting, RTF is at the forefront of this battle, and RTF was supposed to be "OUR" eyes and ears, yet non of them came to the users and devised a plan to stop what is proposed to happen to the little sluice. If you think its wrong for me to call a spade a spade....so be it.

RTF seemed to forget that there is power in numbers and we have huge passionate numbers in OUR community, however, ego's have clouded that fact.


Sorry, I decided to leave the "clique" long ago........Bring it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:50 PM   #95 (permalink)
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yet non of them came to the users and devised a plan to stop what is proposed to happen to the little sluice.
I call bs on that. I did that.

edit: before Bebe steps in. She tried that too. I tried to help.
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:57 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Where? If you did, it was poorly executed....I didn't know about it.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:06 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Why would I stay in a room full of crickets?
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:09 PM   #98 (permalink)
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I loved the little sluice back in the day before some idiots pulled a bunch of rocks into it. THOSE ROCK WERE NOT PUT THERE NATRUALLY! What a concept. I feel they should put it back to the way it was before people decided to change nature. The little sluice tree use to be a huge sign tree, which everyone thought was cool.

Everyone is fighting against each other. Good job guys keep it up.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:09 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Why would I stay in a room full of crickets?
OK

Fishing might be good....
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:14 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Captain Randii,
Eyes wide shut brother, Im going to get you some RTF pom pom's .

...................Sorry, I decided to leave the "clique" long ago........Bring it.
Ryan,


I dont think its too late since you have the right passion and perspective to represent what many of us want. Though this battle may be floundering more is to come in the future...... help get involved in a RTF position, do like what is occuring in politics right now become one of those "never previously politically involved" people who suddently runs for a public office because the staus quo isnt and hasnt been working ..... injects yourself (anyone of us not just you) into that comitee or organization along with other friends and in a show of numbers on the comitee to begin to reshape the organization's opinions, positions and perspecitves from within as well.


Was the quote "lead follow or get the hell out of the way". this might be that situation where we all were following someone else and expecting them to do our bidding when in reality their passion and true perspectives were not mirror images of what we needed and wanted. we just assumed they were.

I see and hear alot of anger and frustration, but is it at ourselves?

i dont recall hearing of anyone volunteering to start a campaign to run for office and force themselves into a political position with more influence, power and leverage to address this.


Im not championing RTF or anyone here as being right but im trying to point out that maybe we all need to look in the mirror and devise our own plans for self sacrifice regarding pushing ourselves further into the political world if we really want a voice or leverage. and that means more than just one person here running for political office. if you dont like how the school board is running the school you run for the board along with other like minded people and get into the position where you have some real say....... i think this is our dilema now and future path to furthing our needs



RTF elections are coming up this fall anyone here vocally dissatisfied with the current path of RTF planning to campaign for one of those open positions?



if not then i dont know how we can sit here and rip eveyone else to shreds when we arent exactly standing/walking in their shoes and volunteering to do the job that they "arent doing correctly". If we are going to criticize then we best be prepared to step up and pursue that to which we are criticizing, otherwise we havent walked in their shoes and cannot claim to know what they are dealing with.


I know in life Ive learned that when i get mad or disagree with how someone else is handling things before i say anything in public i am always prepared to not just complain but also to offer a clear solution and then i am also prepared to assume the responsibility of dealing with it. hence how i got stuck turning around and running a charitable beer festival that was failing, ran for the position got on the commitee, now chair it and did something about its misguided path. but it was no easy task. its easy to criticize from outside the fire pit.



Dusty



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Last edited by ddestruel; 09-26-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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