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Old 10-29-2012, 10:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I'd still like to see all the opinions of the other than Pirate peeps you all talk about - Links please?
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Old 10-29-2012, 10:52 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LYIN' KING View Post
Get some perspective . . . think way back in history to the 1800s when the Rubicon/McKinney Road was established as a stage coach route between Georgetown and Lake Tahoe . . . start from there, not from now.
I'd like to see if a stage coach can still do the trail . . . err route/road . . .

Last edited by LYIN' KING; 10-29-2012 at 11:02 PM. Reason: add route/road
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:13 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LYIN' KING View Post
I'd like to see if a stage coach can still do the trail . . . err route/road . . .
I don't think that's been possible since before Jeep Jamboree started in the early 50's.

What's your point? Because I'm pretty sure it's not valid in this conversation.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:37 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simple Man View Post
Rockyota83,

Lots of questions (five of them) but no content in your last post.

Sharing, does that mean blocking the trail to the majority of the users so a small minority of criminals can create a play area for themselves? That's not what sharing means to me. Why don't you define what sharing is to you?

Do you really have any idea what I drive? See, you prove my point about those who post regularly on Pirate. People posting a bunch of crap with no idea of what you're saying. You've posted over 2100 times and probably still haven't said anything.

I have no problem with "harecore" guys. I think King of the Hammers is an awesome display of American ingenuity. The ideas and conceptions developed there will work their way down to the general OHV users the way that turbos from racing are now common place in stock vehicles. I hope that Johnson Valley gets saved.

But I'm not about to ask BLM to fill in the holes on the Hammers with thousands of cubic feet of rock just so my "incapable rig" can travel those public trails. Nor is it acceptable to for individuals to alter a trail to be more difficult because a small group doesn't get a challenge from how the trail was.

Free speech. It's an opinion. It's mine and you can't change it. But at least I sign my posts with my real name.

Welcome to America!





sharing would be realizing that the people you speak for (in your words the jeeper jamboree folks, less capable rigs) already have 99% more trails available to them then the more capable rigs have. you simply choose to ignore that fact, along with the fact the trail is not blocked due to bypasses. youre obviously selfish and stuck in the past, you should start riding a horse. your on going generalization of the people that post on pirate highlights your character, you speak of no content in my post yet yours is nothing more then a selfish delusional babel. the majority of my 2100 posts are tech related, i go above and beyond attempting to help others with tech, be it my personal knowledge or finding things with the search for those who can not. i contribute to this message board where as you just insult the majority of its users with your holier than thou demeanor.


thank you for sharing your name with us, as we can identify off line who is an enemy to our hardcore trails.

Last edited by rockyota83; 10-29-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 11:38 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I don't think that's been possible since before Jeep Jamboree started in the early 50's.

What's your point? Because I'm pretty sure it's not valid in this conversation.
My point is that the thing has history!

Hell, in the early 70s I did most of it in a stock Subaru Brat, prior to that me and a buddy did it the whole thing in a 60s Toylett Land Crapper on HUGE 9.5 x 15 Armstrong Tru-Tracs.

It has gone so far from its origins when stage coaches, model "A" and "T"s went in there, that bitching about its current level of difficulty and maintaining same is laughable.

That's my point, I'd pay to see a mule or horse drawn stage coach get through it now!!!

So in closing, IMHO just be glad we still have it . . . that's all!
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Old 10-30-2012, 08:56 AM   #31 (permalink)
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sharing would be realizing that the people you speak for (in your words the jeeper jamboree folks, less capable rigs) already have 99% more trails available to them then the more capable rigs have.
All of those other trails are open to you and all vehicles, modified or stock. You are not blocked from driving 100% of the OHV trails in the Sierras. The LS was closed to the majority of users once the boulders were pushed in.

You have made the decision to build up your rig. I have no problem with that. You want to drive it on the Rubicon. I have no problem with that. You want to alter the Rubicon so you and your rig have more of a challenge. I do have a problem with that.





Quote:
you simply choose to ignore that fact, along with the fact the trail is not blocked due to bypasses.
Why should I be forced to take a bypass? The Rubicon Trail is mine as much as it is yours. If all this trail modification crap had taken place on a bypass and not affected the the corridor that is the Rubicon, I wouldn't care about it. I'd tell you to go ahead and build up the difficultly all you want.

But someone blocked the Rubicon Trail to most of the users and that is not right.





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we can identify off line who is an enemy to our hardcore trails.

From one of my previous posts:
Quote:
I have no problem with "harecore" guys. I think King of the Hammers is an awesome display of American ingenuity. The ideas and conceptions developed there will work their way down to the general OHV users the way that turbos from racing are now common place in stock vehicles. I hope that Johnson Valley gets saved.
Again, you need to work on your reading comprehension.





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Old 10-30-2012, 09:15 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I wanted to stay out of this pissing contest, but some basic facts are needed.

First, Eldorado county DOT is doing work on the Eldorado side.
Just a fact not up for debate. They have a bridges to build next year.
2nd, You think the opposition has lost sight of there goal. I think not.

So where does that leave us users who want to donate money and/or blood, sweat doing trail work?

I would say we (FOTR) should be looking to work the Tahoe side this coming year as the DOT is working the Eldo side.
We could create some play areas or hard routes vs. easy routes. Create or rehabilitate some camping areas. There is a ton of cool projects we could do that would make the trail a better place. Water control is always an issue, and FOTR will need to be diligent on those projects too.

Edit: Just in case this was forgotten. FOTR was created to be the boots on the ground getting the work done. RTF was created to allow tax free donations to support groups like FOTR.
Yes RTF has taken on a lot more, one being the purchase of land along the trail last year. Once easements are approved this will allow users access to more areas for camping and OHV use. All good stuff and I think, not 100% fact, but somewhere around 97% of your money goes back into the Rubicon trail
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Old 10-30-2012, 09:42 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I would say we (FOTR) should be looking to work the Tahoe side this coming year as the DOT is working the Eldo side.
FOTR is already considering making 2013 the Tahoe Side year. FOTR has a two page list of possible to do's.




Quote:
We could create some play areas or hard routes vs. easy routes.
I have already approached the Tahoe National Forest with this ideas (one place in particular in mind) and they were open to the idea! We have boulders left over from the County that we could use.




Quote:
Create or rehabilitate some camping areas.
The TNF just formalized five campsites along the trail. Doing an Adopt-a-camp would be a great way to maintain them.





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Old 10-30-2012, 10:17 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I will not stop using the trail as suggested for disagreeing with the direction of the trail. There are so many one sided clowns its sad. I supported than realized what was happening and changed my views.

Nobody can seem to give a simple answer to anyone who disagrees with changes fotr and other groups have done.

Q1-So little sluice was illegally altered, but what about all the other portions that were just from normal use and mother nature that were leveled?

Q2-Is there a large possibility that certain groups (jj) would rather make the trail super easy to widen their profits by allowing the "stock" crowd to make it with no damage? YES OR NO!


Q3-Wouldnt the recent changes with the trail and the fact that JJ owner/president or whatever is present, asking for smaller supports Q2? YES OR NO!


Q4-Do JJ and FOTR work together and have a "special interest" in the trail?
YES OR NO!


Q5-Since JJ, FOTR and the spyder property are all linked, could the trail being altered than possibly closed profit them since they have an easement and could charge to run the trail? YES OR NO!


Q6-Was 5 days notice that Little Sluice was being dramatically altered considered fair notice? YES OR NO!

So now either make up false answers or respond with paragraphs that confused and mislead like politicians
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Old 10-30-2012, 10:28 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Abolutely not...I addressed this in another thread, no, no, and no. For clarity, the private property was purchased in 1991, FOTR was formed in 2000-2001, and RTF was founded in 2004, so not even possible. There is one (of thirteen directors) RTF director that is a property owner in the Rubicon, and the money flows out of his pocket and into RTF, not the other way.

Ask me how I know.

Why should you give money to RTF?

1. An RTF rep attends every ROC meeting and urges the County to make the trail look like what a cross-section of what all responsible users would want. That, BTW, includes the constant fight to keep the trail open year around, the only one in California that crosses federal land and still stays open. The only one.

2. During the easement process, there were two organizations that made comments and took the appeals process to the end. Had that not happened, there would be winter closures in the works. There are not. Those two orgs were RTF and CORVA.

3. When LS was altered, the day of the rock drop, the day of the rock cracking, and the day the crews moved the rocks around in LS, RTF was there, urging larger rocks, urging less alteration. The county started out talking about ten inch rock and breaking 9 boulders. At the urging of RTF and Bob Sweeney from Jeepers Jamboree, only two boulders were cracked and the rock size in LS is much larger than that, mostly 24" and larger. NO other org was there, NO users were there, even though they ALL knew about it, as it was publicized widely.

4. Based on RTF's comments the following occured during the easement process:
- The trail is open year around, still
- The spurs for camping at Buck Island are legal to use for the first time
- Bathrooms will be placed throughout the trail, temporaries are laready at LS. This is possible ONLY because of RTF's poo truck.
- The long bypass around LS is still open
- Old Sluice is still open
- Wentworth (postpile) has an easy line and a hard line, making it reasonable to keep the hard line the same
- Lost Sluice is still open
- Popular camping areas became Travel Management Area (TMA's), which means vehicles can pull off the trail to camp there, legally

5. RTF has bought property adjacent to the trail that we are working on opening to the public. Even if it takes years to get it open, purchasing the property kept it from going to the Forest Service and becoming inaccessible forever.

6. RTF puts staff on the trail to educate the public, every season, and will continue to do so. No other org does that.

7. Perhaps most important, RTF supports FOTR. With dollars. Every time FOTR has asked for something, we've given it to them. Food, materials, tools, whatever they ask for.

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:07 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Q1-So little sluice was illegally altered, but what about all the other portions that were just from normal use and mother nature that were leveled?
Cadillac Hill gets continued work. This year was a good example. Some of the rocks were becoming harder to navigate and on Cadillac Hill that means dangerous. The S-turn was opened up, Morris Rock was concreted, etc. That work will continue. Not trying to make it easier, but noit letting it get harder either.

Gatekeeper is at a natural spring. The ground gets wet. The dirt gets taken away on tires. The rocks stick up more. It becomes harder. It becomes a playground. People drive around it. The trail becomes wider. Treews and bushes die. People stand in (on) the bushes to watch. They drop their trash. It needed to be taken down a notch. Unfotrunately, it was taken down several notches and then they took down the Alligator Pit. There should have been more oversight when the rocks were reduced (to rubble) but that is water under the bridge.

The CAO drives what gets done on the trail by the county. The county is open to replacing the bigger boulders on their way out. Feel free to hold their feet to the fire and make sure that happens. Once the work is done and the CAO lifted and the rocks didn't get replaced, then get pissed off and vocal.



Quote:
Q2-Is there a large possibility that certain groups (jj) would rather make the trail super easy to widen their profits by allowing the "stock" crowd to make it with no damage? YES OR NO!
NO.

Jamboree participation has been down over the last few years but due to the economy not the difficulty of the trail. This past year, I believe they sold out. Making the trail easier will not bring in more money to an event that is sold out.



Quote:
Q3-Wouldnt the recent changes with the trail and the fact that JJ owner/president or whatever is present, asking for smaller supports Q2? YES OR NO!
NO.

I'm not sure who you're trying to reference. But every individual has the right to pass his/her opinion on to the governing officials.



Quote:
Q4-Do JJ and FOTR work together and have a "special interest" in the trail? YES OR NO!
Two questions.

Yes, JJ and FOTR work together.

JJ offers camping to FOTR volunteers during special maintenance efforts. I think they've even fed the volunteers who helped maintain the trail.



Yes, JJ and FOTR have a "special interest".

That would be keeping the trail open. If you'd like to put on your tin hat on and define what you mean by "special interest", I'll try and relpy again.



Quote:
Q5-Since JJ, FOTR and the spyder property are all linked, could the trail being altered than possibly closed profit them since they have an easement and could charge to run the trail? YES OR NO!
I don't accept the premise of the question.

I don't believe that JJ, FOTR and RTP (Spider) are "linked". And you left out the Springs owners. (RSS/RSSG/RSSP????)

The county has the say about if the trail gets closed, not individual property owners. The only other way access gets closed is across private property. That's why I brought up the Springs owners. But they have done more to keep the trail open than most people know. Steve Morris single handedly shut down the Lahontan Water Board when they wanted a gate. He said he would give copies of his key to the gate (as a property owner) to his 10,000 closet friends. Then we got the "snow gate" and moved forward with the 28 water bars on the Tahoe side. They did close Heckler but they were worried about the liability issues there and kept access through the property free.



Quote:
Q6-Was 5 days notice that Little Sluice was being dramatically altered considered fair notice? YES OR NO!
YES.

You actually had two years notice the rocks were going to be filled in and reduced. I had no notice on the 4th of July, 2000 when I woke up to find two boulders had magically appeared in the LS overnight.





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Old 10-30-2012, 11:52 AM   #37 (permalink)
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It's not just a majority on Pirate that wanted it to stay as is, it is a real majority of all users.

Every person I contacted in real life wanted it to STAY. (based on making contact with hundreds of people on the streets at random while trying to get signatures to "save the Rubicon". I would see a nice rig, and follow them until they park and talk to them. Sure did.)

And pirate does not represent only 30% of the users of the trail, more like 75%. (Based on my times staffing the kiosk and asking every truck coming and going if they visit pirate4x4.)

Now, will anyone trying to make a claim otherwise support it with anything at all? Tell me anything real that makes you create your opinion to the contrary...
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Old 10-30-2012, 11:54 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
Q2-Is there a large possibility that certain groups (jj) would rather make the trail super easy to widen their profits by allowing the "stock" crowd to make it with no damage? YES OR NO!

As a math minor in College....There is a probability curve...called Bell Curve. What it basically shows...over and over....is what is commonly called the 80/20 rule.

It applies almost every where in the real world...and it applies here. Obviously, barring some variances....but you typically don't see huge variances....a percent or two.

10% of the trail users will be extreme...hardcore and don't want the little sluice altered at all.

10% will want the Little Sluice returned to circa 1991. They want all the boulders gone....

The other 80%....won't care which way the Little Sluice ultimately ends up. Sure...they may have a PREFERENCE and their preference will fall somewhere between save and restore.....but if they don't get their preference....it's not that important to them.


Me? Definitely an 80%'er. I drove through many times pre-1991. At first was a 10% to restore...changed my position to save....and I burned up my cell phone trying to help the 10% save group. Did it get saved fully? No...but I sleep fine at night knowing I did what I could.


So to answer your question....YES...there ARE people that want it restored to 1953-1991 condition. Probably as many as wanted it in 2011 condition. There is at least one person, in the Little Sluice thread that said so.

Here's another thing on statistics.....People are more likely to complain, than praise. So as the drama last month was unfolding....you would be more likely to hear from the 10% of extreme...than any other group. That's just fact. Nielsen knows this...TV knows this.....that's why they have probability standards applied to letter writing. They know (and I'm making these numbers up because I don't remember them anymore) but for every person that writes to complain about a TV show....they know that letter represents 5 viewers. They also know, that for every letter saying the TV show is awesome....it represents 10 viewers.



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Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
Q3-Wouldnt the recent changes with the trail and the fact that JJ owner/president or whatever is present, asking for smaller supports Q2? YES OR NO!
Besides RTF....One of the MOST VOCAL proponents of saving the Little Sluice....was Bob Sweeney from JJ. Bob worked very hard on your behalf. Believe or not....I don't care....but he did.



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Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
Q4-Do JJ and FOTR work together and have a "special interest" in the trail?
YES OR NO!
False. If you were out there working and going to meetings...it would be very obvious, that FOTR doesn't even talk to JJ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
Q5-Since JJ, FOTR and the spyder property are all linked, could the trail being altered than possibly closed profit them since they have an easement and could charge to run the trail? YES OR NO!
The Tin Foilness of this...just makes me laugh. FOTR has zero to do with JJ and Spider...other than one owner volunteers to huck rocks.

Not even RTF can legally charge to enter our property.

It's well documented, the RTM had a proposal for a permit....that idea died about 4 years ago.


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Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
Q6-Was 5 days notice that Little Sluice was being dramatically altered considered fair notice? YES OR NO!

Actually...you had 2 years to lobby. What did you do?
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:02 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think we all can agree the one thing learned from this thread is.. "simple man" wants the trail as he remembers it....and that way only!....(my suggestion to him is number every rock and go daily to put them back in place,because the use of the trail causes changes....daily!!)

And why werent the criminals who unlawfully changed the LS brought to justice? Guess it wasnt nearly as important....?

I didnt start running the rubicon until 2003-2004...So I remember the LS how it was until recently.... I want my way or Im gonna hold my breathe until I get my way.....

On the other hand ....I like those pics of model Ts in the LS so I want it that way again....So keep paving and Im sure even simple man might not like the trail anymore...

Its pretty clear there is no compromise to have it both easy and challenging to everyone at the same time..... so I say lets get the Rubicon I-85 freeway project pushed through....six lanes and two starbucks gets my vote!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:12 PM   #40 (permalink)
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7. Perhaps most important, RTF supports FOTR. With dollars. Every time FOTR has asked for something, we've given it to them. Food, materials, tools, whatever they ask for.
Yes they do. Every time I have asked for help, support and $$$'s, RTF is always quick with a positive answer and help/support.

And everyone with RTF is "FOTR".

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Old 10-30-2012, 02:03 PM   #41 (permalink)
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The S-turn was opened up,

And who gave you the permission to move that rock on the S-turn???
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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And who gave you the permission to move that rock on the S-turn???
Placer County, there was a tour in Sept of 2011 to plan the maintenance work on Cadillac Hill, on that tour Placer county rep and Tahoe National Forrest was with us
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Old 10-30-2012, 02:38 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I had nothing to do with moving that rock.

But it was done to prevent further erosion at that turn.

With the water seeping from the up hill wall, the ground was always wet and thus eroding away. This was being excelled with the increasing difficulty of the boulder growing larger (as the dirt eroded). Vehicles would experience tire slipage while negotiating the turn. Moving the boulder opened the turn, made it easier, and thus prevented tire slipage and erosion.

Again, it wasn't done to make the trail easier, it was done to prevent erosion.

And Placer County did give permission do the work done!




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Old 10-30-2012, 02:49 PM   #44 (permalink)
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In 2003/2004 please correct me on the year if I'm wrong

Del started having work party's on the same days as the JJ work party in the springs to utilize there labor pool and FOTR's Labor pool and also to gain more volunteers and expose FOTR to a different set of trail users . the projects consisted of Clearing out debri from upstream of the bridge, to hauling rock filling in holes on the road buy the care taker cabin, to working in and around Miller creek to re-route the trail out of drainage's and even to put Miller creek back in the creek bed

Still to this day we FOTR try and have combine work days

Jeepers jamboree fed us, the RSSI owners let us camp there for free,one year Mark Smith bought us all a drink from his bar back there

Hope that helps

Quote:
Q4-Do JJ and FOTR work together and have a "special interest" in the trail? YES OR NO!
Two questions.

Yes, JJ and FOTR work together.

JJ offers camping to FOTR volunteers during special maintenance efforts. I think they've even fed the volunteers who helped maintain the trail.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:04 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Yeah . . . while given a nod here already, I don't think Del (backed by the BRC and with support from CA4WDC) is given enough credit for all his hard work developing and nurturing FOTR or the RTF . . . JMHO!
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Yeah . . . while given a nod here already, I don't think Del (backed by the BRC and with support from CA4WDC) is given enough credit for all his hard work developing and nurturing FOTR or the RTF . . . JMHO!
He does deserve a lot of credit for getting all of us organized, from the 1st meeting in shingle Springs where I invited him to come, threw my brother in law who was at that time in Del's club that he belongs to the Mother Load Rockcrawlers.
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Old 10-30-2012, 03:28 PM   #47 (permalink)
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It's true little sluice was one of the harder section of trail. Yes it took skill maybe even stacking rocks but I've seen plenty of rigs that weren't high dollar big tire rigs make it through. Rigs that anyone in this sport could afford.
Ive seen people haggle people in the box but also seen people ban together to fix peoples rig, work to keep people safe and to get them through that section. So maybe little sluice did limit accesses to those not willing to work at it, and be challenged by it.
I personally go to the rubicon to enjoy myself and have challenging terrain to drive. It's sad that people are becoming too lazy to work and develop driving skills to get a vehicle through a trail.
I understand changing the trail to prevent people from rolling down long off camber sections or areas where there's obvious safety issues and to fix erosion areas that can create off camber sections. I don't agree with making the trail easier so people that aren't willing to work and develop rock crawling skills can easily drive the trail.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:48 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I don't think Del (backed by the BRC and with support from CA4WDC) is given enough credit for all his hard work developing and nurturing FOTR or the RTF . . . JMHO!
Seriously? What other award does he need? RTF gave him the Rock Award....Everyone that knows about FOTR and RTF knows that Del was the glue that brought it together. What else could possibly be done? I love Del....other than a reach around....the rest is Stacy's job.
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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He does deserve a lot of credit for getting all of us organized, from the 1st meeting in shingle Springs where I invited him to come, threw my brother in law who was at that time in Del's club that he belongs to the Mother Load Rockcrawlers.
Yes and it goes further and deeper than that in many ways! I’ll provide one example I am familiar with.

When one of OUR local Forests was initially threatened with nearly complete closure I asked him if he would come and speak to our local Chamber of Commerce in an effort to educate fellow business owners both small and large about the financial effects the proposed closure would have on our local economy. My hope was obviously to rally their support against the closure efforts.

He didn’t even blink, generously accepted, attended without remuneration (other than a simple breakfast), and delivered a thorough compelling dissertation regarding ALL the possible ways these various businesses might be affected.

Folks listened intently and were captivated by the information provided; it was obvious that most had never previously considered any of it. When he was finished speaking there were many question he patiently and thoroughly addressed. After all the questions had been posed and answered the next speaker took the podium and Del excused himself as he had other commitments.

When the meeting finally concluded the place was filled with discussion and it was all about implications the closures might have for each members respective business. Common consensus was that most felt their business would be negatively impacted, some in very devastating ways. Much discussion took place among individuals for weeks after the meeting, word spread to other business owners who were not Chamber members.

The subject was a topic for many subsequent meetings where non-member business owners showed up in force as guests, few if any changed their minds on how bad the decision to implement such drastic changes in Forest management and access was or how negative it would be to local business.

While much was done by people owning business in the surrounding area, access orgs and Forest users both near and far, the Forest Service did not bend! Barely giving an inch they went about their merry way eventually choosing and following their predetermined preferred alternative nearly to the letter, recreational opportunities, forest health and local economies be damned.

Surrounding counties are now an unemployment waste land, even forest freeways are locked up with little or no warning at the slightest chance of moisture (aside from the “seasonal” closures) and the few trail networks for non-street legal vehicles that remain suffer from “street legal only” disconnects, so they are basically worthless.

The Forest is now full of illegal drug production, dumping and all the usual stuff that comes with such drastic closures.

Del was right . . . welcome to what remains of the Stanislaus National Forest!!!
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Old 10-30-2012, 04:59 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Seriously?
Yes, and I said it was just my opinion.
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