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Old 10-31-2012, 03:21 PM   #101 (permalink)
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ive herd this same claim over and over in this forum since it was created, ive yet to come across someone using a name with these claims, until you have a name to go along with these claims youre full of it.
Call it what you will. Its not place to name names.

And although I like your logic with how it "helped" the community, I think you are wrong.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:04 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Call it what you will. Its not place to name names.

And although I like your logic with how it "helped" the community, I think you are wrong.
im calling it what it is, not what i will.


im sorry but the box is what pirate is all about, hardcore rock crawling.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:26 PM   #103 (permalink)
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im calling it what it is, not what i will.


im sorry but the box is what pirate is all about, hardcore rock crawling.
Little sluice (recently) is what made the rubicon famous. Sure, now that it's gone others are touting the scenery, but there are other less crowded scenic places to camp. Around 2000 when I bought my first Toyota and started wheeling the rubicon was widely touted as the pinnacle of rock crawling. Like it or not, the now old version of little sluice shaped rock crawling both as a hobby and ultimately a sport. Perhaps it was just a fad, but the fading of competitive rock crawling is running parallel with the return of the rubicon to a mere scenic gravel road.

I do not know how many times or in how many threads it needs to be said, but we've already lost because we refuse to appreciate and respect each others preferences and rights for recreation. Instead we seperate into "big tires" and "little tires" groups. The resentment of the "big tires" by the "little tires" is VERY STRONG in this thread with the repeated use of the word "criminal." The level of resentment displayed here is too strong to stem from 100' of trail that has been continually modified over the last 100 years. If not being able to drive that 100' of trail ruined the "rubicon experience" for any "little tires," they truley missed THE BIG PICTURE. For the "big tire" crowd, that 100' was all there was. What's next, posted speed limits?

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Old 10-31-2012, 05:51 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I do not think that the majority of FOTR people wanted the LS left as it was.
YEP

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Originally Posted by resqme View Post
When LS was altered, the day of the rock drop, the day of the rock cracking, and the day the crews moved the rocks around in LS, RTF was there, urging larger rocks, urging less alteration.
Why does this not seem to fit when compared to first quote?

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Originally Posted by cruzila View Post
Jack Sweeney asked the Supervisors to reduce the rocks in Little Sluice (Jan 2010)
Yeah hes on our side

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Thus, the majority of Rubicon Trail users would like to see the LS returned to how it was before the criminals started defacing our public lands for their own personal benefit.
Another statement leading us to believe they dont see things from both sides and its pure greed

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Sharing, does that mean blocking the trail to the majority of the users so a small minority of criminals can create a play area for themselves? That's not what sharing means to me. Why don't you define what sharing is to you?
No animosity here

You guys are all so full of s%$# its not even funny. Go through all the post and give me one reason we should trust FOTR or any of the others?
The first quote says it all, the majority of them wanted it the way it was way back when! This is a my way or the highway with you people and the proof is everywhere.

It will become a no harder than a slow dirt trail soon enough. Its too bad that you all feel the need to repeatedly lie to try and receive support. You supporters continually counteract one another's statements.

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:45 PM   #105 (permalink)
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FOTR would be a great start. And enough of "were why its still open", that bs. The economical effect would not allow such a thing
I haven't had much time to follow this thread but one thing that keeps rearing its head is terming FOTR as a single entity and not just a bunch of wheelers that feel like doing work on/for the trail.

I am a lead in FOTR that joined the group after GK was blown up. I can pretty much guarantee that my opinions and views on big tire v small tire, pave v don't pave, donate time/$ v don't don't jive with everybody else s in FOTR because FOTR is made up of individuals.

With that said; I asked this of a friend a few days ago. What would you like to see the people involved with FOTR do/accomplish in 2013?
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:22 PM   #106 (permalink)
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With that said; I asked this of a friend a few days ago. What would you like to see the people involved with FOTR do/accomplish in 2013?
I would like to see the people pissing & moaning in this thread, on both sides, get out on the trail and meet each other. We are all in this for the same reason, or within the same ballpark at any rate, and need to find a common ground. In fighting does absolutely no good towards our cause and its gotta stop. You don't like what's happening then get more involved. Have a voice and a chip in the game... Sitting behind a keyboard going off on people you don't know on EITHER side is stupid and childish. Grow the f up people. What's done is done. Lets move on and learn from it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:27 PM   #107 (permalink)
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With that said; I asked this of a friend a few days ago. What would you like to see the people involved with FOTR do/accomplish in 2013?
Take all the little rocks/pavement out of LS and restore it to the hardcore section it has been since the 90's.



Quick question for real estate experts: I heard that if you own land and extend your fence line and nobody says anything about it, after a certain amount of years it becomes yours. Something about the logic of "if it's been this way for 10/15/20 years, this way it shall stay"?


Another quick question: Is it a crime to stack rocks and go over an obstacle and leave the rocks? Is a crime committed every time FOTR moves any rock or earth without the clear direction/approval of the FS or county?
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:57 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Quick question for real estate experts: I heard that if you own land and extend your fence line and nobody says anything about it, after a certain amount of years it becomes yours. Something about the logic of "if it's been this way for 10/15/20 years, this way it shall stay"?
You're talking about prescriptive rights. Rubicon precedes that as a County claimed RS2477 route. Kinda doesn't matter though...both rights require a lawsuit to claim, and the lawsuit will result in a judge telling the fee holder (land owner), "grant them an easement". That's why the County asked for an easement.


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Another quick question: Is it a crime to stack rocks and go over an obstacle and leave the rocks? Is a crime committed every time FOTR moves any rock or earth without the clear direction/approval of the FS or county?
Interesting..why is it a crime to drag a big rock into LS, but a reasonable action to stack a few rocks to get over an obstacle?

No, there is no crime when FOTR works on the trail. Because every time they do so, they do so with clear direction/approval from the County. *paperwork, every time*
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Old 10-31-2012, 10:59 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Why does this not seem to fit when compared to first quote?

So now I'm a liar? So you musta been there and know the real truth, otherwise it wouldn't be the action of a reasonable human to call me out like that.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:10 PM   #110 (permalink)
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I would like to see the people pissing & moaning in this thread, on both sides, get out on the trail and meet each other. We are all in this for the same reason, or within the same ballpark at any rate, and need to find a common ground. In fighting does absolutely no good towards our cause and its gotta stop. You don't like what's happening then get more involved. Have a voice and a chip in the game... Sitting behind a keyboard going off on people you don't know on EITHER side is stupid and childish. Grow the f up people. What's done is done. Lets move on and learn from it.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:11 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Quick question for real estate experts: I heard that if you own land and extend your fence line and nobody says anything about it, after a certain amount of years it becomes yours. Something about the logic of "if it's been this way for 10/15/20 years, this way it shall stay"?
Plenty of case law to prove that. However, the Judge usually add equal weight to the opposing side's story - if it viable and reasonable.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:11 PM   #112 (permalink)
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The economics of the trail brings up a few questions that I have. If you have the answer that is great, if you do not, I completely understand.

First, green sticker (ohv) funds that are given to the county; are these funds based on the amount of trails in the county and money given per trail. What I mean is that because the Rubicon allows green stickers does the county get more money from the OHV fund as a lump sum and can they use the money for any OHV area in the county or is it specifically earmarked per trail/OHV area.
Funds used on Rubicon are from an OHMVR grant. There is an elaborate points system that "decides" which grants have enough merit to be awarded and which do not. If the Rubicon did not allow green stickered vehicles, the County wouldn't be eleigible for the grant.

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Secondly, the economic impact on the local businesses. Fresh Pond, CBMR, and Uncle Toms Cabin are the most related businesses that I can come up with. Are they aware of the incredible loss that they will take if the trail is closed, even seasonally? Im sure that the county has taken this into account, but they may not even be aware of the money that the users of the trail spend every year in local communities.

Dane
If you're referring to the El Dorado County Board of Supervisors, believe me, they're aware. If they weren't a few years ago, they are now, every one of them. It's hard to put a finger on how much the Rubicon affects the local economy, but we believbe it's in the neighborhood of 7-10 million annually, and we've pointed that out pretty regularly. Forest recreation is the third largest driver of the economy in this County, behind skiing and tourist agriculture (wineries and Apple Hill stuff). They take it very seriously
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:17 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Why does this not seem to fit when compared to first quote?

So now I'm a liar? So you musta been there and know the real truth, otherwise it wouldn't be the action of a reasonable human to call me out like that.
We don't know the truth or who to believe. You can't say that you wouldn't second guess your statement after reading the first quote. And just look around, there are statements along the same lines all over. Don't try to make this a poor me thing. I was simply using your post for reference. I could find 15 others that have said the same thing. But I could find 15 others saying what is in the first quote.
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:22 AM   #114 (permalink)
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We don't know the truth or who to believe. You can't say that you wouldn't second guess your statement after reading the first quote. And just look around, there are statements along the same lines all over. Don't try to make this a poor me thing. I was simply using your post for reference. I could find 15 others that have said the same thing. But I could find 15 others saying what is in the first quote.
What you are looking at, are the quotes from 2 differant people. 1 has the opinion that most FOTR people wanted the LS altered. Nowhere did John say he agreed with Doug. Not even implied. So how is this even in discussion?

Do you still not understand who/what FOTR is???
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:50 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I do not think that the majority of FOTR people wanted the LS left as it was.

YEP


Quote:
Originally Posted by resqme
When LS was altered, the day of the rock drop, the day of the rock cracking, and the day the crews moved the rocks around in LS, RTF was there, urging larger rocks, urging less alteration.

Why does this not seem to fit when compared to first quote?


I never said what should happen to LS. You assume I want it paved. I do not want to see any portion of the Rubicon 'paved' but I understand what needs to be done in order to satisfy the CAO.

I would like to the the LS toned down to the point that it is as difficult as anything on Cadillac Hill. The longer the series of challenges in the LS the better.

I think that has happened, only because there were RTF representatives onsite during the work or it would have been paved.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:04 AM   #116 (permalink)
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3. When LS was altered, the day of the rock drop, the day of the rock cracking, and the day the crews moved the rocks around in LS, RTF was there, urging larger rocks, urging less alteration. The county started out talking about ten inch rock and breaking 9 boulders. At the urging of RTF and Bob Sweeney from Jeepers Jamboree, only two boulders were cracked and the rock size in LS is much larger than that, mostly 24" and larger. NO other org was there, NO users were there, even though they ALL knew about it, as it was publicized widely.
I won't call you a liar John, but bring to your attention where #3 may concern some people as to clear RTF communications and user representation.

#1 You state that "RTF" was there. Was there some official RTF discussion and a quorum present when the strategy to "urge" the county, related to rock sizing and less alteration took place. Was there a RTF meeting noticed? If not, perhaps there were just private citizens there acting on there own.

#2 And how is it that Bob Sweeney, another private citizen, holds any sway over the 2010 BOS reduction decision. If the county was indeed so flexible with there final decisions, why was there not a public hearing as promised to discuss these matters, instead county brass holds a secret court in field, and at the time of the re-sizing and reshaping with a chosen few insiders.

#3 You went to the effort to cap lock "NO." Are you now suggesting that a large user presence that day at the box would have been a good thing?

I don't know of anyone else on this board that thinks that they can roll up on a county work site and have an impact on construction practices other than you and yours.

In conclusion, I am not worried about the trail, there are powerful forces that will make decisions, and in totality......that is life.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:27 AM   #117 (permalink)
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This secret society bs is getting old.
It's not secret, when you participate.

Oh wait...that would require actual time and effort beyond typing and bitching....never mind.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:31 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Take all the little rocks/pavement out of LS and restore it to the hardcore section it has been since the 90's.
Why is it anymore valid for you to have THIS opinion? Than the guy who drove the LS from 1953 to 1991 who wanted it restored to that condition?

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Old 11-01-2012, 10:39 AM   #119 (permalink)
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#1 You state that "RTF" was there. Was there some official RTF discussion and a quorum present when the strategy to "urge" the county, related to rock sizing and less alteration took place. Was there a RTF meeting noticed? If not, perhaps there were just private citizens there acting on there own.
There was no vote and quorum about this specific action, but RTF has published there position on this, and that was voted. Since the January 2012 LS meeting RTF has clearly stated multiple times that if the County is going to reduce rock size, they should keep it to a minimum. We got notice of the schedule literally the day before this was to happen. We knew it was going to happen, but not when...the County wouldn't tell us that. Somebody somewhere along the lines let the cat out fo the bag, I believe it happened on the OHMVR tour...I wasn't there. As you know, it went big on this board and that's when I called the County. I asked them to confirm it and they did. I spoke to Scott and Ken (the Political Action Committee within RTF) and went up to be on site and urge them to keep the rocks larger. Bob Sweeney was there too. Not sure of his specific involvement, but he was urging them to limit changes as well.

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#2 And how is it that Bob Sweeney, another private citizen, holds any sway over the 2010 BOS reduction decision. If the county was indeed so flexible with there final decisions, why was there not a public hearing as promised to discuss these matters, instead county brass holds a secret court in field, and at the time of the re-sizing and reshaping with a chosen few insiders.
This question was asked in the September ROC meeting. It's my understanding that the county believes that they did their due diligence with regard to public input when they held the January 2010 BOS meeting.

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#3 You went to the effort to cap lock "NO." Are you now suggesting that a large user presence that day at the box would have been a good thing?
I don't know, Craig. Maybe. In that post, I think I was making the point that one of the many reasons RTF should be supported because we ARE there, at meetings and on the ground, consistently.

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I don't know of anyone else on this board that thinks that they can roll up on a county work site and have an impact on construction practices other than you and yours.
Granted, I've spent years developing relationships with the folks doing the work, so i didn't get chased off. I'm guessing if a reasonable individual had stood well away in a safe place and urged less rock cracking, they might have had less influence tha I did, given those relationships. That being said, they probably would have had some influence.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:51 AM   #120 (permalink)
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why was there not a public hearing as promised
There was a public hearing. Jan 2010. That said....the person in charge in 2010, said he would allow public input into the work in LS. That was Tom Celio.

Tom retired. His temporary replacement, did not share this view. What are you going to do? Point a gun at his head and tell him he HAS TO do what Tom was going to do? Of course not.

Given those parameters....We (RTF) worked very hard to get opposing opinions to the BOS ruling. There was no legal reason for anyone other than DOT there on site....but through relationship building, RTF was there and Bob from JJ. Both represented views to NOT crack the rocks. There is major tin foil hat that JJ wants the trail "paved", but that is not the case at all.

The original plan was 13 rocks were going to be cracked. 9 in the LS and 4 outside. Through HOURS of phone calls, Vickie getting the Helicopter drop of rocks.....the final tally was 2 rocks IN the LS and 1 rock outside.

The younger extreme guys complain their voice was not heard. That is simply not true. There were LOUD voices on the side of not cracking any rock....it ended up helping limit the cracking, but not stopping it. But that's how it works....The extreme guys didn't win it THEIR way....and the fully restore group didn't win it THEIR way.

So you say...who won? Maybe no persons won....maybe only the trail itself won. Only time will tell.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:55 AM   #121 (permalink)
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KETTLE...Meet Black.
The correct abbreviated Interturd term is POT....meet KETTLE.

It stems from the term - "That's like the POT calling the KETTLE black".

wikipedia shows:

Quote:
The phrase "The pot calling the kettle black" is an idiom used to claim that a person is guilty of the very thing of which they accuse another.
Which I don't think applies in this situation at all (YotaUp).
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:04 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Why is it anymore valid for you to have THIS opinion? Than the guy who drove the LS from 1953 to 1991 who wanted it restored to that condition?

KETTLE...Meet Black.
It's not anymore valid, but his opinion does matter. I believe he's trying to figure out whats FOTR goals. If they are going to try to restore the rubicon to the pre 1991 condition they won't get my support nor will they get the support of many other on this board. But hey others on here might be more supportive though.
I DO NOT believe this is the case but I have seen no hard line drawn in the sand beyond we will do anything to keep the trail open including destroying difficult sections of the trail. (Yes I realize the Little sluice rock size reduction was part of the CAO. The question is did FOTR and RTF want this even without the CAO)

There should be a happy middle ground where we can all support FOTR and RTF but I don't believe making areas of the trail easier just so people like Simple man can drive them with no skill or work is part of that middle ground.

Is there an official RTF FOTR stance on this?
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:07 AM   #123 (permalink)
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John - thank you for the response. I believe it is important to the health of the trail, and further, the future public financial support of RTF that their chain of communications and efforts are clearly articulated, similar to your post. "Insiders" cut both ways. Clear communications will keep the perceptions that the closurists are bearing the brunt of the carving up at a premium.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:21 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1uglyranger View Post
What you are looking at, are the quotes from 2 differant people. 1 has the opinion that most FOTR people wanted the LS altered. Nowhere did John say he agreed with Doug. Not even implied. So how is this even in discussion?

Do you still not understand who/what FOTR is???
The point of my post is completely being missed You hear that these org's are trying to keep the trail open and very minimal changes from one member/supporter. Than a completely different response from another that states, multiple supporter/members are upset its not the "way it used to be" and want it changed back. This after LS is turned into what its is now.
Who do we trust is all im saying?

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Originally Posted by atvobsession View Post
It's not secret, when you participate.

Oh wait...that would require actual time and effort beyond typing and bitching....never mind.
Truth is, I dont have the time you and others do to be at these meetings. My business is more important. Year end is coming, which means tax time. Donations are something that is a plus for me and the first that came to mind was FOTR. I have always supported but after seeing what the trail is turning into, I question if they are something I would want to support.

If its a negative thing to question where my donation is going and what their intentions are, I guess its not something I need to support.
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Old 11-01-2012, 11:38 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
The point of my post is completely being missed You hear that these org's are trying to keep the trail open and very minimal changes from one member/supporter. Than a completely different response from another that states, multiple supporter/members are upset its not the "way it used to be" and want it changed back. This after LS is turned into what its is now.
Who do we trust is all im saying?
As is mine. Doug was posting his opinion of what trail users wanted... thats all FOTR is..... trail users. There is no formal membership. If you are a "Friend" of the Rubicon trail, than you should consider yourself FOTR.....even if you can't attend the meeting, or the work parties. IMO, Doug is wrong about what the trail users wanted, but thats my opinion, and it could be wrong also.... thats why its an opinion.
I also believe that RTF has always stood with the side of leaving LS alone. After the decision was made to crack rocks, they worked as hard as they could to minimize the work that the county was going to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockbuggy84 View Post
Truth is, I dont have the time you and others do to be at these meetings. My business is more important. Year end is coming, which means tax time. Donations are something that is a plus for me and the first that came to mind was FOTR. I have always supported but after seeing what the trail is turning into, I question if they are something I would want to support.

If its a negative thing to question where my donation is going and what their intentions are, I guess its not something I need to support.
Truth is, you can't really donate money to FOTR, at least not as a tax deductable donation, thats why RTF was formed, so they could finacially support FOTR. I don't fault you at all in checking in with an org before sending off money blindly.... I wish more people did this before sending a check off the the Sierra Club every year..

If you want to be more involved, but don't have the time to get to te work parties, you can be part of the discussion by joining the FOTR mailing list. That way you know what is being talked about, and what projects are coming up, and what path FOTR is taking to reach our "end Goal".... We also only have 1 meeting year, in Sac, on a Saturday, hope to see you there next year.
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