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Old 08-04-2016, 11:09 AM   #26 (permalink)
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It seems like a lot of assumption going on here. I personally don't know details, and would rather not chime in my opinion(but I probably will). But has anyone personally contacted Vickie or RTF to get the real story? It just sounds like a lot people are going off what they heard from someone else, read somewhere, etc.

Back to the topic at hand, Winter camp from my understanding is the area that the Rock was supposed to be dropped in, and this was in the workings for last couple of years from what I remember. The reasons it was dropped in LS instead, I can just go off what Vickie said in an email that was already posted on here about exposed soils. Either way, LS and being paved, looks the same to me as it did after the original work took place after the tree fell, just more rock now. Not any easier or harder, but that's besides the point.

I only know Vickie through the AAT work that we do, and from what I've seen her do over the last few years, and I think she's done a lot to help keep the trail open. I wouldn't think that JJ would have an influence on where the rock was dropped, but that's just my opinion. To each his own. Coincidence that this happened, maybe. But without knowing all the details, I'm not going to assume. And FYI, for those that don't do any studying up, Vickie is a non-voting member of RTF. It's on RTFs website, not a secret.

And RTF on the other hand, if you think this had anything to do with their involvement, I would have to say your probably not very involved with the trail, and don't know what's going on. Also, RTF chair was built so RTF could have a relationship with local counties involved from my understanding. So to have Vickie as a non-voting member of RTF seems like a great idea to me.

I spend a good amount of time in the trail, and think I put in a fair share of work. Let's just try to get facts in here and not assumptions. I do have my questions and concerns I would like answers to regarding this whole thing, but I'm going to try to get direct answers that I don't think anyone will get here. Again, my $.02, tear it apart, make assumptions, agree with me, I don't care. I have questions myself. It just gets irritating to see so little people involved hands on when it comes to actual trail work, but everyone is ready to jump on their keyboard and criticize when things don't happen the way they had thought they would. I spoke my piece, and won't chime in anymore, so don't expect any responses from me. Im just here creeping and hoping to get some info of my own.

Funny how it seems like every year before cantina, something like this comes up. Just something to think about.
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:45 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Did you read the op? Those are the facts.

Re-read Mark's post.
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Old 08-04-2016, 12:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Old 08-04-2016, 12:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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"Exposed Soils"? I've reviewed several Draft EIS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enviro...pact_statement) over the years. They were as thick as a phone book (younger folks might need to Google it).
I can't think of any examples of "exposed soils" being cited as a concern. I don't even recall it being a category. Also pretty darn sure that none of the infamous "42 routes" that were closed named "exposed soils" as the reason for closure.

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Originally Posted by Rubicrawler View Post
FWIW:
but this action was the last straw for us and we resigned from the AAT program.
Mark, knowing what you've given up to perform services for the trail for so long, it must have been painful to throw in the towel. I'm very grateful for the efforts you've put in. We need to connect next time you're up, Iced Tea is on me

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If you care to look at the rtf budget the claim that they use the foundation for a personal bank is just sad.
Excellent suggestion. However, when I tried to do just that, no budget could be found on RTF website. The closest thing I can remember is a pie chart many years back that went stagnant for a couple of years and was eventually taken down instead of being updated.

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But has anyone personally contacted Vickie or RTF to get the real story? It just sounds like a lot people are going off what they heard from someone else, read somewhere, etc.
Once upon a time, FOTR and RTF provided the "real story" to keep folks informed. That hasn't happened for some time.

Back in the day: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...le-sluice.html

I also used to attend ROC meetings to try to be informed and involved. Apparently that is also a thing of the past.
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Old 08-04-2016, 01:45 PM   #30 (permalink)
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It seems like a lot of assumption going on here. I personally don't know details, and would rather not chime in my opinion(but I probably will). But has anyone personally contacted Vickie or RTF to get the real story? It just sounds like a lot people are going off what they heard from someone else, read somewhere, etc.

Back to the topic at hand, Winter camp from my understanding is the area that the Rock was supposed to be dropped in, and this was in the workings for last couple of years from what I remember. The reasons it was dropped in LS instead, I can just go off what Vickie said in an email that was already posted on here about exposed soils. Either way, LS and being paved, looks the same to me as it did after the original work took place after the tree fell, just more rock now. Not any easier or harder, but that's besides the point.

I only know Vickie through the AAT work that we do, and from what I've seen her do over the last few years, and I think she's done a lot to help keep the trail open. I wouldn't think that JJ would have an influence on where the rock was dropped, but that's just my opinion. To each his own. Coincidence that this happened, maybe. But without knowing all the details, I'm not going to assume. And FYI, for those that don't do any studying up, Vickie is a non-voting member of RTF. It's on RTFs website, not a secret.

And RTF on the other hand, if you think this had anything to do with their involvement, I would have to say your probably not very involved with the trail, and don't know what's going on. Also, RTF chair was built so RTF could have a relationship with local counties involved from my understanding. So to have Vickie as a non-voting member of RTF seems like a great idea to me.

I spend a good amount of time in the trail, and think I put in a fair share of work. Let's just try to get facts in here and not assumptions. I do have my questions and concerns I would like answers to regarding this whole thing, but I'm going to try to get direct answers that I don't think anyone will get here. Again, my $.02, tear it apart, make assumptions, agree with me, I don't care. I have questions myself. It just gets irritating to see so little people involved hands on when it comes to actual trail work, but everyone is ready to jump on their keyboard and criticize when things don't happen the way they had thought they would. I spoke my piece, and won't chime in anymore, so don't expect any responses from me. Im just here creeping and hoping to get some info of my own.

Funny how it seems like every year before cantina, something like this comes up. Just something to think about.
I have no problem with you not responding, but I still feel the need to address your misapprehension of the facts, not assumptions, that are in the record preceeding your post.

I do not see the need to contact the county or Vickie directly as she clearly spells out her reasoning, and the subsequent actions that she unilaterally took to save the trail and all the babies.

The thread posted by the FOTR Trail Boss was never bumped by the Trail Boss in order to clearly explain why important work to Winter Camp was cancelled or delayed. She has that information and is the only one that can share what happened. Therefore, I requested that the Trail Boss come into this thread and share the project facts. She appears to have chosen not to, though she may be busy in her personal life - I respect that.

I am confident my post above requesting the author of one of the comments in the OP was that of the RTF President. He is invited to come in here and explain when he first became aware that: 1), there existed exposed soils in the box, and 2), whether or not it his understanding that any and all exposed soil is subject to a massive load of emergency rock remediation.

And, as you likely know this isn't exactly a new issue. There is an exstensive record on Facebook regarding this subject. I am aware that RTF members took the time to share their opinion there, though some opinions have subsequently been deleted.

With respect to conspiracy theories regarding JJ and JJ USA or even RTP as a group, I do not share in those positions, nor do I think there is any misappropriations of funds, and further, I could really care less on who benefits from a smooth LS.

I will take you directly to task on your opinion that the relationship between Vickie and RTF has been fruitful for Joe Blow trail user. Of all the communications that I have been made aware, not one RTF member has stated that they had any knowledge of this re-pave. How can a relationship with the county be worth spit, if the parties to the relationship do not discuss such serious matters related to the trail. And with respect to the job that Vickie does for the trail to keep it open - I am an El Dorado County taxpayer, I contribute to a handsome salary, so she had better do her job well. With respect to words that she used in the email above, I am not a happy taxpayer or Joe Blow wheeler.

I do understand your concerns regarding the shortage of volunteerism, perhaps the lack of clear communications outlined herein may be part of the problem, just maybe?
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:02 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I have some questions for Ms. Sanders:

Why lie to the Volunteers? You lied to RTF and you lied to Shannon. You omitted your plan from the AAT groups (same as lying).

Why do you continually confuse the Saturated Soils Plan written by the County and the Clean up and Abatement order written by the CVWQCB? Do you think we are too dumb to understand the difference? Little Sluice is not in the CAO.

What is your plan now to remedy the water issue at Winter Camp? Since the rock you dropped was for that project (which is one of the only issues left on the trail that can potentially close it). Seems to me, that someone who is solely responsible for keeping the trail open for all of us little people, would realise that standing water is a much higher risk to temporary trail closure, than exposed soil in Little Sluice. This should be your next priority.

Is there a plan to put Barts Creek back within the boundary of it's banks so that the water, does not run directly up the trail?

Why not ask the AAT group for LS to come in and relocate a couple thousand pounds of the existing rock that slides down every spring to fill in the low spots in the Box? Why drop another 4+ Helo loads into the box? (I know the answer to this, so it's more a less a test to see if you can be honest with me).

IMHO you are no more qualified to run the Rubicon Trail program than Hillary Clinton.

You lie to the public you serve, to deflect the truth, hide the truth, and betray those who trust you.

It's shameful. You should be ashamed.


EDIT: If you did this to avoid the drama of protests, might I remind you that protesting our government's decisions is as American as the Rubicon. If you can't stand the heat - get out of the Kitchen.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:24 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Hi Criag,

Again, just my opinion as I don't have facts. I do Agree with you that there is lack of communication here between the county, RTF, and trail users. With that said, correct me if I'm wrong, but the AAT program wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the work that Vickie put into it. The county would still be all over the trail, paving whatever sections they felt necessary. I don't know details about the CAO and what was included and what wasn't, but my thought on it is LS could have caused a possible bigger issue at hand, then Vickie did the right thing in making a last minute decision to drop rock there. I don't know all
The details, and for some reason doubt that anyone will ever get a full story of what happened and why.

I do agree that there was a big communication gap here that could have prevented a lot of this. In hre getting involved with trail politics, and would rather stay out of it, but just have to say what's on my mind in this matter just because the trail means a lot to me and I've raised/am raising my kids with a love for it and hope to keep it that way.

All the bs needs to be put aside, and get some honest truth on here. We still don't have all the details of why this happened, and I would just like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry I said I wouldnt post up and did. But don't think I have anything else to say so I'll be watching and waiting for some more details.

In the meantime, since the work didn't get done, why doesnt everyone here plan a work party to get winter camp filled in/raised? I'm in as long as it's on the weekend.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:37 PM   #33 (permalink)
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@ $25k per load you would think that there would be a flight plan, GPS coordinates, people on the ground, and constant communication to ensure everything was followed to plan, and to follow the plan correctly, without fail.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:50 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Hi Criag,

Again, just my opinion as I don't have facts. I do Agree with you that there is lack of communication here between the county, RTF, and trail users. With that said, correct me if I'm wrong, but the AAT program wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the work that Vickie put into it. The county would still be all over the trail, paving whatever sections they felt necessary. I don't know details about the CAO and what was included and what wasn't, but my thought on it is LS could have caused a possible bigger issue at hand, then Vickie did the right thing in making a last minute decision to drop rock there. I don't know all
The details, and for some reason doubt that anyone will ever get a full story of what happened and why.

I do agree that there was a big communication gap here that could have prevented a lot of this. In hre getting involved with trail politics, and would rather stay out of it, but just have to say what's on my mind in this matter just because the trail means a lot to me and I've raised/am raising my kids with a love for it and hope to keep it that way.

All the bs needs to be put aside, and get some honest truth on here. We still don't have all the details of why this happened, and I would just like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry I said I wouldnt post up and did. But don't think I have anything else to say so I'll be watching and waiting for some more details.

In the meantime, since the work didn't get done, why doesnt everyone here plan a work party to get winter camp filled in/raised? I'm in as long as it's on the weekend.
I am glad you decided to respond.

I see the glass as really 90% full of good cold clean water, it is the taste of the 10% additive that is offensive.

To reiterate, you again made a push for the work that Vickie does. I was following your work in Old Sluice. You work as a volunteer, Vickie gets paid. AAT groups are volunteers, Vickie gets paid. She may be a great person, she may be good at her job, she gets paid. She gets paid to coordinate her efforts with AATs and RTF.

Anyway, hypothetical for you... As previously stated, I followed your work in Old Sluice. Lets say you bust balls for two or three years in there doing all the right things, but unbeknownst to you a back room deal get hatched to shut it down without notice. Are you going to feel slighted?

Communications is key to volunteerism, Vickie violated that public trust, and I believe she has done a disservice to the county interests, for which, I possess a minor position.

Thanks for your reply.
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Old 08-04-2016, 02:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I would be pretty upset, rightfully. My question, ignorant as it may sound, is how does anyone know there really was closed door meetings about this? Not saying there was or wasn't, but again, I don't like assuming.

I agree, communication is key. And obviously was lacking here.

Thanks for the compliments on old sluice, we try our best and have been involved since the AAT started. Hoping to keep on going as long as we can.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I would be pretty upset, rightfully. My question, ignorant as it may sound, is how does anyone know there really was closed door meetings about this? Not saying there was or wasn't, but again, I don't like assuming.

I agree, communication is key. And obviously was lacking here.

Thanks for the compliments on old sluice, we try our best and have been involved since the AAT started. Hoping to keep on going as long as we can.
With respect to "back room deal", I would tend to believe that that expression is of frustration or hyperbole. Likely representative of the "unbelievable" lack of communication between Vickie and anyone (RTF or AATs) on such an emotional charged section of trail. I will remind you that there once was an emotional gentleman having an uncomfortable discussion with his father on the telephone regarding the rock cracking in LS. Most would consider that a backroom deal.

I think the purpose of this thread is to get to the truth so trail users who may disagree with what went on can vote with their emails, pocketbooks, etc..

The lack of RTF involvement in this thread, at least on its surface would indicate to a reasonable person that they (RTF) have some reason for not simply addressing the issue directly with the truth.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:22 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Not speaking on RTFs behalf, but I'm pretty confident you would be safe to bet that they had no idea.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Not speaking on RTFs behalf, but I'm pretty confident you would be safe to bet that they had no idea.
Since we are in a betting mood, first one to prove at least one knew, or didn't know, wins a beer?

So are you certain that not "one" knew?

I am thirsty and loaded for bear.

And, I have a nasty habit of posting questions for answers that I already possess.

Speaking of Old Sluice...

You've been around so I will refresh my concern regarding my previous hypothetical.

During the easement process, when Little Sluice was originally vandalized (hyperbole) by the county under Jack Sweeney's direct guidance, a nice little section of trail called $1000 hill was closed because it crossed RTP land because the owners deemed it to be a liability.

Guess who owns the land for which Old Sluice traverses.
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Old 08-04-2016, 03:50 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Lol.

I already know the answer to that. Didn't think it was secret. But going off topic.
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:18 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Lol.

I already know the answer to that. Didn't think it was secret. But going off topic.
And yet, you didn't answer the question.
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Old 08-04-2016, 05:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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The lack of RTF involvement in this thread, at least on its surface would indicate to a reasonable person that they (RTF) have some reason for not simply addressing the issue directly with the truth.
This.

I am curious as to where I can find information reguarding this paving job, beyond this thread? I have searched all over and find no mention of this anywhere. What a coincidence.
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Old 08-04-2016, 06:08 PM   #42 (permalink)
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For those who don't know, the little sluice is going to be altered this Thursday/Friday. You can thank Jack Sweeney for this.

So, I personally don't care WTF happens to the "BOX" simply because I dont care for crowds....anywhere.


I do however, as an American, care about what happens to the sluice. Why? Because it is the only place for those that enjoy the challenge of hard "Rock Crawling" in Northern California, its only 100' at most and is easily manageable.

With the peer pressure lately, the lawless crowds have all but died down and it has become a respectful place on the trail, not the party spot of years past.

I see no reason to have it blown up, or covered, closed or touched in any way.
Everyone needs a place to enjoy in the PUBLIC forest and with the "Box" being so easily managed and regulated, we should all VOW to make sure it is left alone.

RTF, Step up or Step aside. I am calling all of you out. I challenge you. Make any alterations of the sluice...STOP.

Or...... show the entire country/world, why it should be altered, blown up or filled in....

Public land is for ALL of the Public.
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...Gosh forbid anybody upset the Jeepers Jambo or Jeepers USA applecart in RTF...Blowing the box is in their interest so they can get their little wheels through maybe...??? Crap, did I type that out ...ooops
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Old 08-04-2016, 06:53 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The only facts regarding helo rock drops that I know of first hand is from a conversation I had with Vickie Sanders during a work party in the Gatekeeper area on October 10th of last year. It was a brief conversation and it alluded to the possibility of dropping some rock at our work party site but was not set in stone. My main frustration is regarding the size of the rock that was placed in that area. I am a firm believer that the smaller stuff that is typically dropped is rather ineffective over the long term and I have conveyed that opinion a number of times with Vickie.

Sometime prior to October of last year I also had a conversation with Vickie in her office regarding the helo drop of rocks into Winter Camp. There was a game plan in place and a call for volunteers earlier this year that seemed to fall apart for various reasons. I don't know specifics and I don't know what if any work had been completed in preparation for the helo drops. It may have played a part in her decision to divert to Little Sluice.

Iv'e spent quite a bit of time walking the beginning of the trail with and talking with Vickie. I firmly believe that her heart is in the right place and does what she believes is right for the trail and the trail users. I can respect that. I also have come to realize that she does not think quite like a wheeler and has some slight deviations from my own views on trail maintenance. I can work with that.

I am sure that there are people on this board and out on the trail that are perfectly content with the so called "re-paving" of the Little Sluice. Their are people on this board and out on the trail that were ecstatic to find boulders pulled into Little Sluice years ago. Never will their be a situation that makes all sides fat and happy. It's just not going to happen.

I could bring back Gatekeeper in an afternoon without any help. The vast majority of rigs, including my own, wouldn't be able to get through. It would be met with cheers by some, anger by others and an aneurysm by Rich Platt.

I'm not a political activity type person. I get a lot more personal satisfaction out of getting my hands dirty and would like to believe I'll continue to do so as long as my body holds out. I've got no beef with RTF or any of its members, they have thankless positions and I commend their dedication. I'm able to shape things a tad because I participate. I wish more would would do the same and it saddens me to see good people with good hearts step aside.
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Old 08-04-2016, 09:26 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Old 08-04-2016, 10:00 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by L!ghtfoot View Post
I am sure that there are people on this board and out on the trail that are perfectly content with the so called "re-paving" of the Little Sluice. Their are people on this board and out on the trail that were ecstatic to find boulders pulled into Little Sluice years ago. Never will their be a situation that makes all sides fat and happy.
If that is true and you can not make all sides happy, then who should be made happy? The overwhelming majority or a small select minority?

2004 - "Should the Sluice be made easier?" (2 option poll)
80% answer NO.
2009 - "Do you favor opening up Little Sluice?" (4 option poll)
72% answer NO, never, leave the box alone.
These poll results are consistent with the many people I've spoken to in person about the subject.

Another factor to consider is the concept of change itself. "If it ain't broke..." Then again, in these political times it's not a great surprise to see a small fraction of the population create change and ram their agenda down the throat of everyone else. Are their tax dollars greener than ours?

Sources:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...er-poll-4.html
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...uice-poll.html
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Old 08-04-2016, 11:06 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Yota Up View Post
If that is true and you can not make all sides happy, then who should be made happy? The overwhelming majority or a small select minority?

2004 - "Should the Sluice be made easier?" (2 option poll)
80% answer NO.
2009 - "Do you favor opening up Little Sluice?" (4 option poll)
72% answer NO, never, leave the box alone.
These poll results are consistent with the many people I've spoken to in person about the subject.

Another factor to consider is the concept of change itself. "If it ain't broke..." Then again, in these political times it's not a great surprise to see a small fraction of the population create change and ram their agenda down the throat of everyone else. Are their tax dollars greener than ours?

Sources:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...er-poll-4.html
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubic...uice-poll.html
I don't disagree with you in the least. Then again a small fraction of the population created change (enhanced Little Sluice which wasn't broke) and rammed their agenda down the throat of the rest of the trail users. I'm not overly upset that we lost the box and not really upset that it was created in the first place either. It's a small fraction of the trail. I will say that the party scene it caused, I was happy to see leave. Crap, now I'm starting to sound like Rich Platt and Gatekeeper.

Somebody will always whine and cry regardless of any and all trail "maintenance/modification" What's the answer? 51% rules and to hell with everybody else? Beats the hell out of me.

Iv'e done trail maintenance in the past that made sections a lot harder than they were. Maintenance doesn't have to mean "paved". I suppose, at times, that has made me the one that rammed their agenda and I've had altercations because of it. Given the choice, I'd rather see maintenance efforts make the trail harder, even if my rig isn't capable.
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Old 08-05-2016, 02:34 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by L!ghtfoot View Post
I'm not overly upset that we lost the box and not really upset that it was created in the first place either.
You are rare. For most people it's been a "love it" or "hate it" position. I posted the above to show the huge amount of "love it" for that spot as it used to be. The majority of the Rubicon trail users is sad about the loss of the box. I'm sad, too.

I wish something could work for both sides of the coin and give We The People a place to exercise hardcore rigs while the old school guys get to keep on with their old school thing at the same time. I want families to be able to have it quiet and chill. I also want young folks to be able to party it up. I want big rubber to turn rigs sideways while the crowd cheers, and then I want mellow spots where the Cleavers can camp out, too.

Good luck everyone.
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Old 08-16-2016, 08:57 PM   #48 (permalink)
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