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Old 05-23-2019, 09:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
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So, what's the deal with FOTR?

My oldest boy is now 16 and driving, and he got himself a 41 Willys wheeler and DD. He is beyond stoked to get on the trail this summer with it. One thing that really made me proud, is that he asked me if we could do an FOTR work-party this summer like he used to do when he was a little boy. While I personally would rather have him do work with his Uncle Rick (FOE) in another part of the forest, he wants to wheel the Con..

So anyway, this is what I am being told. PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.

There is nothing for FOTR on the calendar for this summer at all..

The trail has now been split into 16 "Adopt-a-trail" sections, adopted by clubs.

Personally, I am not sure that is a good idea, for two reasons: 4x4 clubs for the most part are dying off. Cal4 even changed their name to reflect that. I do not know which clubs are involved, what happens if they dissolve?

Secondly, that always leads to the "This is OUR part of the trail, don't work on it" attitude. Wasn't that one reason for FOTR in the 1st place? To get everyone together to work on the entire trail?

I realize that it has been tough to get more people on work-parties the past couple of years. There are many reasons for that, the biggest IMO being that we are thankfully not in a critical "IT IS GUNNA BE CLOSED" mode.

So what is the deal?
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Old 05-24-2019, 09:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Not sure about FOTR, but I think the County may have taken over all projects.

https://www.edcgov.us/Government/Rubicon

Adding the Projects for 2019
https://www.edcgov.us/Government/Rub...ect%20list.pdf
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I thought FOTR was going to help adopt-a-trail clubs with man power when needed.
I just pick up trash and clean oil spill on my own maybe throw a rock or two
Kurtuleas good to hear your kid wants to get involved
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Old 05-24-2019, 02:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I thought FOTR was going to help adopt-a-trail clubs with man power when needed.
I just pick up trash and clean oil spill on my own maybe throw a rock or two
Kurtuleas good to hear your kid wants to get involved

That was my understanding as the adopt a trail program started up; supplemental manpower as needed and requested by adopt a trail groups. I've said before that AAT was a nail in the coffin for FOTR. I have a lot of great memories on the trail with FOTR. Many of the work parties were huge endeavors, others not so much but just as important. Trail work on the Rubicon is something I truly miss since moving to Michigan.

It might have been nice to see FOTR adopt a section of their own.

edit. I just looked at Bebe's first link, item #4. Vickie Sanders knows the answer to fix that, it's in the rock quarry by Gerle Creek. I regret never being able to make that happen on my watch but it would be an awesome project.

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Old 05-24-2019, 05:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I posted up here on 3-1-2019 asking when the next FOTR meeting was scheduled and got zero replies.

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Old 05-24-2019, 07:37 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I have a lot of great memories on the trail with FOTR. Many of the work parties were huge endeavors, others not so much but just as important.
Me too.
Lots of great memories and I've met a lot of great folks.
Still do what I can do.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I'd like to see something start again and make that change again, but I'm not sure what the correct process would be anymore as well.
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:41 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Also should mention that aside from the calendar - FOTR and RTF no longer post on Pirate.

You need to go to the links posted to get any information - or to their facebook pages.
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Old 05-28-2019, 11:16 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I've said before that AAT was a nail in the coffin for FOTR.
I fully agree with this

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Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
Secondly, that always leads to the "This is OUR part of the trail"
Because of this


Anyway, good for him for wanting to at least do something
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Old 05-28-2019, 08:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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That was my understanding as the adopt a trail program started up; supplemental manpower as needed and requested by adopt a trail groups. I've said before that AAT was a nail in the coffin for FOTR. I have a lot of great memories on the trail with FOTR. Many of the work parties were huge endeavors, others not so much but just as important. Trail work on the Rubicon is something I truly miss since moving to Michigan.

It might have been nice to see FOTR adopt a section of their own.

edit. I just looked at Bebe's first link, item #4. Vickie Sanders knows the answer to fix that, it's in the rock quarry by Gerle Creek. I regret never being able to make that happen on my watch but it would be an awesome project.

I think in spite of the best intentions, the commitments by the AAT clubs for any trail vary over time and its hard for the county (Vickie) to recruit more in a reliable timeframe. It would help to have Vickie make her reports public so that the general user community would have better visibility into what is needed where. I know the Madhatters have pretty reliably been able to deal with our REDs along the Wentworth section of the trail since we first volunteered years ago, but my understanding is various other sections have been kinda hit or miss. No one in the AAT groups should consider that they 'own' that section - its just a matter that they are an identified entity to help with work and formally report on it rather than ad-hoc work parties. Summary - ask Vickie - I'm sure she'll happily accept whatever help she can get.
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:20 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Perhaps aat should drop the portion "assigning" a " section " of the trail???

Like this, join aat=get name on list= ,get out and help, =work getting done.
I dunno just my .02
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Old 05-29-2019, 08:40 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Dumb thought from a dumber east coaster, would it be worthwhile to find a sponsor or 2 to donate some swag for a "clean day raffle" of sorts? Like a winch, hilift, lights, something offroad related, show up to clean, get a ticket, win a prize. Something to entice more participation?

Or FOTR finding something similar to do, but on a club level versus personal level? The club that brings the most people to a clean up day gets xyz, like a readywelder or something that the club owns but is available to the members to use?

Could make good PR for all involved.
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Old 05-29-2019, 09:15 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Dumb thought from a dumber east coaster, would it be worthwhile to find a sponsor or 2 to donate some swag for a "clean day raffle" of sorts? Like a winch, hilift, lights, something offroad related, show up to clean, get a ticket, win a prize. Something to entice more participation?

Or FOTR finding something similar to do, but on a club level versus personal level? The club that brings the most people to a clean up day gets xyz, like a readywelder or something that the club owns but is available to the members to use?

Could make good PR for all involved.
problem isnt cleaning the trail... and thats the problem

its painting the bathrooms, adding gravel, adding log barricades, making and installing signs, things that require a larger commitment

and i ASSume you cant just go out there and start painting or putting up signs without first sending in a sample and getting the official OK
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Old 05-29-2019, 10:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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problem isnt cleaning the trail... and thats the problem

its painting the bathrooms, adding gravel, adding log barricades, making and installing signs, things that require a larger commitment

and i ASSume you cant just go out there and start painting or putting up signs without first sending in a sample and getting the official OK
Ahh makes sense.
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Old 05-29-2019, 04:43 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Looking for meeting info on Pirate kind of went by the wayside a few years back. A simple email to Shannon would have garnered the information sought. A random post that's left to rot with no follow up doesn't scream a need to know.

The only as-hoc work parties I was aware of were the spring and fall assessments. I would hate to think that was the only time any work was/is performed on an AAT section. Myself, I found the the paperwork portion of it frustrating even if it was a necessary evil. I much prefer to just be a worker bee.

I made it past Ellis only a handful of times on the trail and went a couple of years without dropping into the bowl as Gatekeeper was my section. I sure as hell didn't own it but tried to take care of it as if I did.


As for eliminating assigned sections of the trail aka AAT versus getting a name on a list aka FOTR. That would basically be eliminating AAT and going back to FOTR.

For the east coaster....way cool that an east coaster cares btw.....Historically, big scale projects drew a lot of volunteers. Rich Platt helped unify 62 people for one of them. The death of the box drew a bunch as did the rebuilding of the bridge at the springs to name just a few. People didn't show up for the swag but to be part of something bigger than themselves. Del used to give stuff out but I can say without a doubt nobody helping on a work party ever went hungry.

Nothing run by the government is ever done smoothly. Vickie is clearly dedicated to the trail and I applaud her for that, but she is just a cog in the wheel.

I think her vision of trail maintenance was different than myself and many others. Using a fine brush to "groom" certain areas versus a broad brush to look once and chuck twice so to speak. I see no benefit to putting rocks smaller than a toaster on the trail, much less crushed rock. It just doesn't stay put and FOTR or the AAT club will be doomed to repeat the same process over again. I think Vickie started to see the light, but it was too late for me as my family and I headed east.

Is FOTR dead? Perhaps forever delegated to the RTF property? Give them one hell of a major project and find out. Let the AAT club for that section work with the FOTR trail boss to coordinate.

Back in the day TDO was a working powerhouse. They had the numbers and drive to complete some ambitious projects. A one and done project for item #4 would be beyond their abilities without additional support. Throw that on FOTR and see where the cards fall. It already had Vickies support.
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Old 06-04-2019, 01:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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There is nothing for FOTR on the calendar for this summer at all..
There is nothing sinister about this fact. Due to the snow, the projects haven't been schedule. Definitely contact Shannon at [email protected] and she will know the projects and might have an idea on timing.


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The trail has now been split into 16 "Adopt-a-trail" sections, adopted by clubs.
Kurt. The trail is in fact broken up into Adopt-A-Trail sections. The County manages those groups. They are NOT clubs, per se. Anyone can adopt a section, and there are many that are just regular people. Your son can in fact get on the list with you, and he can be informed of an opening to adopt. Most of the work is monitoring, cleaning of ED's (Energy Dissipators). Groups do in fact disband, whether official clubs or a group of friends. It happens. That's why Vickie at the County has a waiting list to reassign when this happens.

FOTR now steps in for large projects (Vickie and Shannon work out when this happens) or when a group has a project that's larger than their ability, Shannon will be asked to round up troops from the FOTR Volunteer list. Shannon will use the list call out for labor, on a project (either an FOTR project or an AAT staff augment).

Have your son sign up. All "call outs" for volunteers are done on this mailing list.

FOTR Mailing List Sign up


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Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Not sure about FOTR, but I think the County may have taken over all projects.
That is correct, kinda. The County does control the projects, but they will defer to FOTR how it should be done. Basically, the County presents the issue and FOTR will garner opinions on the best solution (if there are options) and the work is scheduled by FOTR. These projects are always discussed annually at one of the RTF Meetings. Anyone can attend and chime in...several members of the public always show up. Once again, emailing Trail Boss when that happens, is always the best course. That's what the trail boss is for....herding cats, as you know.


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Originally Posted by TimCubed View Post
I thought FOTR was going to help adopt-a-trail clubs with man power when needed.
That is exactly correct. FOTR usually gets involved with larger projects. That's why you don't see FOTR call outs to clean ED's on the trail. That's the job of AAT.


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Originally Posted by microtus View Post
It might have been nice to see FOTR adopt a section of their own.
See above. Anyone can be a "group", and one in that group can be FOTR. So in reality, many sections are adopted by FOTR already.


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Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Also should mention that aside from the calendar - FOTR and RTF no longer post on Pirate.

You need to go to the links posted to get any information - or to their facebook pages.

This is a thing. Sadly, Pirate just isn't the "go to" place to reach the most amount of people. Its a fairly safe assertion that anyone reading this can admit they don't come to Pirate as often as they did back in 2005. Here are links to the best places to get information.

FOTR Website. This was combined with the RTF website for cost and IT reasons. RTF pays for it and updates it based on the trail boss. RTF adds no content without the trail boss.

https://www.rubicontrailfoundation.org/fotr/


FOTR Book of Faces
https://www.facebook.com/Friends-of-...7113685684705/


RTF Website Blogs (This is new to us, so what stories end up there is kind of undetermined.) RTF would love anyone with a good story to submit. The most recent was Brett Joiner telling the story of his daughter getting kicked in the head by a horse. She was life flighted from Roseville to UC Davis using their Rubicon AirMed membership.

https://www.rubicontrailfoundation.org/blog/


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Originally Posted by WLDWUN View Post
Because of this
Anyway, good for him for wanting to at least do something
All links provided above for him to get involved. Probably could do a better job with that information, but people are so spread out now due to social media. The days of one stop shopping are over.


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Originally Posted by Rock Dog View Post
I think in spite of the best intentions, the commitments by the AAT clubs for any trail vary over time and its hard for the county (Vickie) to recruit more in a reliable timeframe. It would help to have Vickie make her reports public so that the general user community would have better visibility into what is needed where.
Vickie almost always (She is a non-voting member of RTF) does an update on AAT, FOTR projects, etc at all the Rubicon Trail Foundation board meetings. They are on the 3rd Wednesday of the Month at 6:30PM in Placerville. The meetings are open to the public, we have a handful that usually attend.

Marshall Foundation Building
1124 Sherman Street, Placerville, CA 95667


We have tried, and will continue to try to make the meetings public online. Unfortunately, we recently had to move our meetings to the Marshall Foundation building, and their internet is horrible. It's just not capable of video/audio conferencing. It's a regrettable situation, and we are constantly looking at options.

The next best thing is go to our website. There is a link to all our meeting minutes going back to 2016. Any Vickie updates to the public that can not attend live are included in the meeting minutes. Realistically, the meeting minutes are updated about a week or so after the meeting, so there's a lag of about 7-10 days.

https://www.rubicontrailfoundation.org/meetings/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Dog View Post
I know the Madhatters have pretty reliably been able to deal with our REDs along the Wentworth section of the trail since we first volunteered years ago, but my understanding is various other sections have been kinda hit or miss.
When they "miss" too many times, Vickie removes them from the program, and then fills.


Quote:
Originally Posted by microtus View Post
Looking for meeting info on Pirate kind of went by the wayside a few years back. A simple email to Shannon would have garnered the information sought.
Who ever is trail boss, answers this email from above: [email protected]

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Originally Posted by microtus View Post
The death of the box drew a bunch as did the rebuilding of the bridge at the springs to name just a few. People didn't show up for the swag but to be part of something bigger than themselves. Del used to give stuff out but I can say without a doubt nobody helping on a work party ever went hungry.
RTF still pays for all meals that are required for FOTR projects. We have a budget for it. I believe the Green Bridge project, which had a TON of volunteers, was given steaks donated by Jeepers Jamboree. It takes a village.



Quote:
Originally Posted by microtus View Post
Nothing run by the government is ever done smoothly. Vickie is clearly dedicated to the trail and I applaud her for that, but she is just a cog in the wheel.
We all know this...but Vickie tries very hard and actually cares. We really can't ask for more than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by microtus View Post
I think her vision of trail maintenance was different than myself and many others. Using a fine brush to "groom" certain areas versus a broad brush to look once and chuck twice so to speak. I see no benefit to putting rocks smaller than a toaster on the trail, much less crushed rock. It just doesn't stay put and FOTR or the AAT club will be doomed to repeat the same process over again.
Rock fixes are dictated by the easement agreement and the monitoring sections. Because of this, Winter Camp section is now 3-4 feet higher than last year. It is expected, hoped that winter closures during the melt will not be needed. Grants fund future rock drops for maintenance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by microtus View Post
Is FOTR dead? Perhaps forever delegated to the RTF property?
FOTR has not been used on any RTF Property projects. As you may know, the main camp area, family camp area is called FOTR Camp in honor of FOTR and the accomplishments over the years. That's the extent of the connection.


Quote:
Originally Posted by microtus View Post
Back in the day TDO was a working powerhouse.
Legends. This is why TDO is the ONLY club to ever receive a Rock Award. The plaque honoring them, is permanently attached to the Kiosk and I believe Brian Whitford has the trophy.


All great questions and great dialog. Sorry for the delay, but hadn't been on Pirate in a month.
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Old 06-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Thanks Kurt for bringing this up -- and bringing a bunch of us back to Pirate. Wow, the good old days of FOTR when Lance gave us this space like in 2001 just so we had a place to quack and plan before MySpace and FB.

In the day...stay with me...we took off most all club t-shirts and put on FOTR shirts to show our unity as a volunteer force -- a force of many, not having any more club boundaries on this trail, or turf issues.

We kept a gate off the Rubicon by doing this. FOTR. Green shovels. Hard work.

Unity in our actions and harmony in our voices saved the trail.

Vickie and the county, with Justin Williams as the staffer on the ground, has taken over most of the trail management, including the pumper truck they are building to do the bathrooms. (More on this soon, I'm helping find parts for the truck). Projects will go thru them as I get it. AAT clubs and FOTR will be the work crews.

I guess one of my main points is that if we let "clubs" or turf or politics get in our way of doing what needs to be done -- again -- we will lose this trail. On the other hand, if we use this to our advantage, and stay in sync with the County, (and the feds), our trail will be in good shape. With us being involved. Del
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Old 06-04-2019, 08:04 PM   #18 (permalink)
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!!!!!

RTF this FOTR that, who's responsible for this who controls that? Talk and pats on the back of things that happened 20 years ago. Great.....we all did a bang up job...awesome......we know!!! Hell a lot of us were there, we get it.

What worked back then doesn't necessarily work now. Things evolve times change, realities hit us square in the face. Let's quit tip toeing around here and talk about the real deal, what's really going on.

The Government is in control of our trail. Thats it folks that's the reality. It is our job to keep a great relationship with the folks in charge and control what we can of their impact on our trail. Here's my reality, after being told more times than I care to remember that we have to keep an eye on our relationship with the county some of those very same folks apparently didn't want to listen to their own advise and chose to alienate and act with arrogance towards the very agency that controls our destiny. Hell I don't agree with Government most of the time but fortunately we "The Community" currently enjoy a great relationship with some of the Pivotal folks at the County that are like minded in the love of our trail and community. You have to ask yourself what may happen if that position is changed. A simple retirement, a simple position change, whatever it might be. Have we taken enough time to build a relationship or try to influence the next person? Imagine a Karen Schambach in that position. Those buckets full of big rock last year may very well be filled with concrete if such a change goes un attended to. Non Profits grow which can be good and bad, agencies change that's the way of things.

Pirate is mostly a thing of the past compared to years gone by, thats another reality. Social media has evolved and changed so many ways that we communicate and what a great tool it can be. Again, I hear FOTR this, RTF that but what I didn't hear one time was Community! Remember those good old days you all keep talking about? Thats what it is, thats what you're feeling, thats whats been sorely missing, Community folks!

Our trail is not owned by any singular entity, it's not controlled by one Non profit or group, its owned by all of us, equally and with out bias. The County is the overseer and to this point has allowed us to give input and care and more importantly listened. Great for now!

I heard above "The County does control the projects, but they will defer to FOTR how it should be done". This is complete hogwash and again insinuates some sense of superiority. Good Lord that crap gets so old. The County has a project list (Outside of the AAT) on their website that ANYONE is open to sign up for. The County also puts out the word as far as they can when they are looking for input on how to best handle a section of trail and when they do its to the COMMUNITY not one singular entity. This situation has improved greatly over the years and hopefully stays that course.

I hate Government involvement in anything and fought that battle for a long time. That horse has bolted folks. The reality is the Government is on the trail and it's our job to work with them and guide them to best limit impact. Thats what I'm gonna do. I'll leave the money making folks with a perceived singular interest and the negative folks battling for the appearance of power to their business. Have after folks, couldn't care less. I'll focus on the positives and making a difference where we can and most importantly be a part of the community that we should all cherish and not look down on.That is the strongest weapon in our arsenal.......community!

Kurt, Del. You came looking for answers and you both came to a place that you know has very little traffic. Stop pussy footing about, thats what gets us in trouble. You wanna play "Blow it up" go do it where the bomb will have its most impact or don't do it at all. Personally and as I stated in a recent conversation, I see absolutely no benefit in dragging dirt, people or groups through the mud. It does nothing for the trail BUT if you wanna ask the questions be prepared for the answers

Love ya,
Tim.

P.S. Cant wait to see you both at Steaks and Stories
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Last edited by Curly; 06-04-2019 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 06-04-2019, 11:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Member # 31923
Location: Auburn, CA
Posts: 4,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly View Post
The Government is in control of our trail. Thats it folks that's the reality. It is our job to keep a great relationship with the folks in charge and control what we can of their impact on our trail. Here's my reality, after being told more times than I care to remember that we have to keep an eye on our relationship with the county some of those very same folks apparently didn't want to listen to their own advise and chose to alienate and act with arrogance towards the very agency that controls our destiny. Hell I don't agree with Government most of the time but fortunately we "The Community" currently enjoy a great relationship with some of the Pivotal folks at the County that are like minded in the love of our trail and community. You have to ask yourself what may happen if that position is changed. A simple retirement, a simple position change, whatever it might be. Have we taken enough time to build a relationship or try to influence the next person? Imagine a Karen Schambach in that position.

I hate Government involvement in anything and fought that battle for a long time. That horse has bolted folks. The reality is the Government is on the trail and it's our job to work with them and guide them to best limit impact. Thats what I'm gonna do. I'll leave the money making folks with a perceived singular interest and the negative folks battling for the appearance of power to their business. Have after folks, couldn't care less. I'll focus on the positives and making a difference where we can and most importantly be a part of the community that we should all cherish and not look down on.That is the strongest weapon in our arsenal.......community!
That....is the fact Jack..right there.
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Ken Hower - KOH #1962 Close Enough Racing/KOH #4899 Legends
Rubicon Trail Foundation - Director 2011-Present

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