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Old 11-21-2005, 07:25 PM   #26 (permalink)
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2wd Studebaker.

Why all of a sudden are we trying to stop the progression of things? Why all of a sudden are 1990 standards of vehicle's the precedent for all future trail maintenance?

Why not let the trail evolve naturally and only do repair when its needed? (Water quality issues, erosion, etc.)

If a 500,000 lb boulder falls in the middle of the trail sure by all means its gotta be fixed, but at what point is there a natural evolution of the trail that is acceptable. The trail changed from the late 70's to the early 90's and nobody had a problem with it. Why is it such a huge deal that it is continuing to evolve today?

Hell if you want to preserve the Rubicon in its original state lets take it back to its roots. I want to be able to drive my 2wd car to Rubicon springs just like the old days. Obviously I am being sarcastic here, but I just am at a loss for words.

Is the Rubicon really that hard when they have 100's of stock rigs travel it every year for Jeepers Jamboree? And lots of newbie's at that.

Ex. 3 years ago my old man drove, in 2 wheel drive, from the Box to Tahoe in a CJ5 w/ bald 33's a powerlock and took the strap twice. Either he is the best driver on the planet or people are over stating the difficulty of the trail.

Straight from the Jeepers Jamboree Website:

"The Rubicon Trail is considered the "Granddaddy" of all four-wheel trails - a 10 on most scales! Annually, the winter storms carve out a different trail among the rocky sluices and granite slabs providing new challenges each year. "

Providing that those new challenges can be traversed by a stock rig apparently.
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Old 11-21-2005, 07:26 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I agree with Reuben in some regards. My only concern would be the continued degradation of the trail as people try to find a way AROUND gatekeeper. We all know that people will find away around gatekeeper (legal or not) if they want to run the remainder of the trail.
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Old 11-21-2005, 07:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 1uglyranger
Randii, you said it yourself, trying to get a "standard" vehicle for the Con is about as realistic as having a standard bullet to prevent gun violence.
That's NOT what I said. In clarifying what a guideline would and would not do, I used an example of how an ammunition specification is useless for controlling behavior (amunition is to gun control as tire size is to driver skill -- there's little correllation, and certainly no direct relation). Ain't it cool, though, that gunsmiths use a few standard calibers?

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Old 11-21-2005, 07:33 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I guess the point of my post was that I don't understand the need for a guideline???
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Old 11-21-2005, 07:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I'm not talking about Gatekeeper. There's a thread for that, and there's several threads talking about enforcement, as well. I'm not talking about rating the Rubicon. There's probably a thread for that, too. I'm not talking about *my* use of the trail -- I *like* the challenge.

I'm talking about discussing amongst the user community whether consensus exists for the standard to which the trail should be maintained. If we can clearly state a few points, this will help guide the County's maintenance efforts. If we cannot achieve consensus, they will provide their own guidelines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCKRATZ
If a 500,000 lb boulder falls in the middle of the trail sure by all means its gotta be fixed.
Wouldn't it be handy to have a general goal for the fix, Keith?[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by RCKRATZ
...at what point is there a natural evolution of the trail that is acceptable... Why is it such a huge deal that it is continuing to evolve today?
Certainly the trail will change. Some of those changes will require maintenance (FOTR will do more work at Gatekeeper, more work on Walker, more waterbars by Miller Lake). We can be demand-docused, reacting to needs, or we can try to engage in management.

D'ya want input on this, or d'ya want them to make the decision for you? We've got SHOVELS, they've got DYNAMITE!?!?
I intend to use my shovel and winch to help FOTR solve problems, but I'd like FOTR to set some guidelines for the County blasters to follow. I guess that's just me, tho.

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Old 11-21-2005, 08:26 PM   #31 (permalink)
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In total agreement with RCKRATZ,
Setting a standard like that will just open the doors to some idiot getting stranded out there and seuing the county because thier Jeep with 35s couldnt handle the "maintained for 33s trail"

I see and agree with the point of maintaining to a determined level to keep the county from doing as they please, there must be a more accurate way of doing this?
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:52 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I know what you are getting at Randii but I sure as hell don't have a good feeling about it. I just have this fear that as soon as we set a "standard" for rigs on the Con that could easily be misconstrued by the county down the line to mean something totally different. Is the old sluice all of a sudden too difficult for whatever standard is set and the county says that it needs to be improved to meet those requirements? I would just hate to see ANY kinds of numbers or requirements/guidelines thrown around because I cannot trust that the county is going to use those numbers in a responsible manner.

I totally agree with you about being ahead of the game.

I will have my shovel, winch, and back right behind you Randii. It just kills me to see us having to conform to the county's every whim......
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Old 11-21-2005, 08:55 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I say make the "standard" 38's and lockers front and rear....... and tell everyone thats how it is.....

The old timers that I wheel with on a regular basis, know that that is bs, and will take their 46 3A on 31's, all the way through, and be happy, cause there aren't as many TJs with 33's getting stuck everywhere cause they "heard" that the standard is a Jeep on 33's....

Its a tough call either way, and poeple that know me, know that I want what is best for the trail.... but at the same time.... I want to continue to enjoy the trail.... Even on 37" tires
If FOTR wants to work on gatekeeper (or any other part of the trail) to keep the erosion to a minimum, thats fine.... you can count on my entire clubs support. If they want to work on Gatekeeper (or any other part of the trail) to make it passable by any retard in a WJ on 33's....you can find help elsewhere
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Old 11-21-2005, 10:02 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Here's my point, due to the illegal activities of a very small group of criminals, I can no longer drive the Rubicon Trail. It was not a natural evolution, it was criminal!

Some of the natural evolution of the trail has become an environmental hazard and needs to be addressed.

The Little Sluice will be fixed. The illegal boulders will be addressed. The question is how to deal with them. We can't put them back on the cliff face where they belong.

The big boulders will be made small. It will happen. The discussion of this tread is asking how small would you like to see them? To me the Rubicon Trail is a family camping trail, albeit a difficult one.

Personally I think a short wheel base rig with 31's and open diffs should have a very difficult time getting through the trail. That rig should probably require a winch and or straping. (Remember to unstack any rocks stacked to get through a tough section.)

I think the illegal boulders should be reduced in size and spread farther up the sluice to the point where an average driver of a 97" wheel base rig with 33's and a locker will still face a challenge driving the trail. If your rig is less equiped expect trouble, if your rig is built better it will be an easier drive.

Old guys "take their 46 3A on 31's, all the way through". I'll call foul on this one. That rig will not make the Little Sluice as it sits today, regardless of the driver.

This trail was never meant to be an OHV park. It has become a play ground. Since the trail was not hard enough for the extreme rigs, some drivers drove off the trail to find more difficult challenges. Some drivers pushed, pulled and pryed rocks on to the trail for more of a challenge. This type of activity will close the trail to everyone.

If your rig is over built to the point thast the Rubicon is no longer a challenge, go to Johnson Valley.

If you want more of a challenge from the Rubicon, drive it with 31's and open diffs and show me how good a driver you are!





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Old 11-21-2005, 10:22 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
If your rig is over built to the point thast the Rubicon is no longer a challenge, go to Johnson Valley.

If you want more of a challenge from the Rubicon, drive it with 31's and open diffs and show me how good a driver you are!
Doug, I don't think we should be siding on this.

We need to work together on a solution that works for "most". Telling me that I shouldn't head up with my family and friends to spend time on the most beautiful trail I have ever been on because my rig is over built is not productive.

I don't know anybody with an "over built" rig that didn't start out with a posi rear and 33's or there-abouts. I don't pretend to be better than you my friend so let's leave that alone please.
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Old 11-21-2005, 11:04 PM   #36 (permalink)
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So this turns into a thread not on "minimum" standards for a vehicle but minimal acceptable standards for the trail itself?

As Randii put it "...the standard to which the trail should be maintained...".

To a large degree it is already being done and in others perhaps lacking. Everything from blocking off illegal bypasses and dealing with erossion control to proper sanitation of human waste help set the acceptable standard for the trail. Pulling 2 ton boulders off a cliff face to make the box more challenging isn't any more acceptable than cutting a switchback like the base of Cadillac or not taking care of vehicle fluid spills.

Times have changed and the tail has and will probably continue to evolve. The mentality of those using it need to change with it. Things that people did offroad 30 years ago would be unheard of today. The activity (I wont call it a sport) has grown so fast that the learning curve of those participating needs to catch up. The only problem is class is just about over
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Old 11-21-2005, 11:11 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I hear ya, Keith. My hope is for FOTR to work with or even drive the county decision. FOTR has earned a seat at the table through the sweat of all of our hard work.

The underlying ethic needs to be to let the trail be, except for erosion mitigation and NECESSARY repair. Trust is tough, so until we have more of it, we need to continue to work even more closely with the County.

I'm game to 'wheel with anyone who goes up to Rubicon to experience the trail, cameraderie, nature, and intermediate challenge. We can't make Rubicon into an extreeeeeeeem challenge, nor can we ignore it and let erosion and traffic keep pushing it that way.

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Old 11-21-2005, 11:36 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I do not want to exclude any one from the Rubicon. You are free to bring what ever vehicle you like to the trail, overbuilt or underbuilt. I applaud multiple types of vehicles and driver skills on the trail as long as people tread lightly. My comment about taking the over built rigs to Johnson Valley was if you were looking for more of a challenge.

It's like complaining about a 35 mile per hour speed limit because you own a Ferrari. Don't drive 100 mph on the 35mph road, take it to a race course. Don't expect to find a challenge for a rig with 40" tires, lockers f/r and 500 hp on the Rubicon.

We are looking for a "standard" for the trail. The Rubicon Oversight Committee will be looking for a standard at which to maintain the trail. If we don't come up with one, the county will.

I'm not claiming to be "better" than anyone. I'm trying to get the users to see the bigger picture. The Rubicon is a county road. The County will address the Little Sluice and other issues that come up. You have your chance to speek up and voice your opinion.

This board is only one place to voice your concerns. We as users are looking at losing 700 miles of trails within the El Dorado National Forest because the public has not contacted forest officials with letters saying that those 700 miles should be kept open.

Have you sent you letters?





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Old 11-22-2005, 02:21 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone on here is dumb enough to think that the county isnt going to make some serious changes to the box. If that hasn't been made clear enough they either haven't been paying attention or are just plain ignorant. Hell, I ran it this last weekend because I figured it would be my last chance to do so. Honestly I gave up on that whole discussion after an RTMP meeting a while back.

I totally agree with Randy's last statement that we should only act when there is an erosion issue or necessary repair. What I do not want to see is the county continuing to dumb down the trail to meet whatever standard we set as a group. With that I do not have the same optimism that you guys have. I sat through those RTMP meetings and felt like they really didn't give 2 poops about what the users wanted. Its my fear that the same thing is going to happen in the future. IMHO its a sad fact that we don't have as much power in the decision making process as we think we do. We may be one voice but we are pretty much outnumbered when it comes to who's at the decision making table. If I'm wrong in that statement I'm wrong, but thats just my perception.....

In a nutshell I am just really fed up with the hypocritical things that go on in our community. I am in no way defending what has happened to the box over the years but look at it this way. I have been hearing people bitch and moan for over a decade about it, and yet every year there are organizations in our community that make every effort to make a good trail easier all in the name of making money for their organization. I'm not going to name any names or point any fingers, but it happens in more places then the Rubicon. Why is it ok to make a trail easier to suit your needs and its not ok to make it harder to suit your needs? Know what I mean?

To sum up a novel I just don't see how this is practical. So lets say for instance that we tell the county that the standard rig is a 33" shod 1 locker rig. What the heck is that going to mean to someone that has never wheeled before? Are you going to apply a fix and then have a rig that meets the description give it a shot and if they dont make it you gotta make it easier???? Not trying to be an a** but I just dont see how its gonna work. If someone could explain I would appreciate it
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Old 11-22-2005, 08:29 AM   #40 (permalink)
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It will work by having the users working with the county and becoming part of the decision making process. Friends of the Rubicon will be there when the work gets done on the trail. We will be able to help the county complete the project in a way that we "the users" approve. The users are currently represented at the Rubicon Oversight Committee buy FOTR, RTF, Cal4wheel, land owners and others. The ROC is where most of those decisions are made. They are public meetings, please, show up share your views.

We are not trying to dumb down the trail. But there are sections that need to be addressed: Little Sluice, Big Sluice, Gatekeeper, Ellis Creek, etc. These are needed repairs.

As for businesses making the trail easier so they can make money, I don't agree. A business can not on its own go out and make any part of the trail easier, short of stacking rocks for individual vehicles. Again, those rocks should be removed after clearing the obsticle. There are business' that are involved with the ROC, just as you could be if you showed up to the meetings.




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Old 11-22-2005, 09:37 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Doug, I don't think we should be siding on this.

We need to work together on a solution that works for "most". Telling me that I shouldn't head up with my family and friends to spend time on the most beautiful trail I have ever been on because my rig is over built is not productive.

I don't know anybody with an "over built" rig that didn't start out with a posi rear and 33's or there-abouts. I don't pretend to be better than you my friend so let's leave that alone please.
You seem to have missed out on something. There are plenty of overbuilt rigs with inexperienced drivers out there. NONE of those overbuilt rigs should be breaking as much as they do. My conclusion is they CAN"T drive.
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Old 11-22-2005, 10:41 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
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In a nutshell I am just really fed up with the hypocritical things that go on in our community. I am in no way defending what has happened to the box over the years but look at it this way. I have been hearing people bitch and moan for over a decade about it, and yet every year there are organizations in our community that make every effort to make a good trail easier all in the name of making money for their organization. I'm not going to name any names or point any fingers, but it happens in more places then the Rubicon. Why is it ok to make a trail easier to suit your needs and its not ok to make it harder to suit your needs? Know what I mean?
Very well said. And if we make it this standard to fix the trail to a 33" tire. Who is the guys that are going to help out to make it this way?

And if you are going to make a tire size the statute, then you need to make it a ratio of some sorts. Because a 33"s on a Willys is a far cry different than 33"s on a k5 or any other fullsize vehicle. So to say that making the trail driveable for a certain sized tire is ridiculous.

And I drive a k5 on 42"s. I take my family on almost every trip I go to on the Con. I dont drive the Box and dont have any intentions of driving in it. And whats the point of driving the Box if it is easier. Thats like bragging about having sex with a whore. Whats the challenge?

And to clarify about the guys in "extreme" rigs breaking parts. They drive like that because they have money to burn, like to break stuff because it is funny to them and their group of friends or hell maybe because they have fun being idiots. Does this make them bad because they break parts?

I am just tired of the talk of how everything needs to be a jeep on 33"s. There is too many capable vehicles out there that need to be addressed. And one last question, the guys that want all of these smaller stipulations, what do YOU drive?
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Old 11-22-2005, 10:54 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I don't think the stock or under capable rigs are a problem, and there is nothing wrong with an extreme rig but I do definately think it is much easier to cause damage in a big block rig with boggers than a stocker..

Maintain the trail end of story. Have clubs adopt sections and leave it up to them to decide to what extent they maintain it.
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:33 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I am just tired of the talk of how everything needs to be a jeep on 33"s. There is too many capable vehicles out there that need to be addressed. And one last question, the guys that want all of these smaller stipulations, what do YOU drive?
That is NOT what I said. I specifically excluded brand, since it adds no value to the discussion. If anything, I'd suggest that the trail be maintained ONLY in problem spots, NOT throughout so that it is passable with challenge for an average driver running aggressive 33" tires, intermediate wheelbase (95-100"), and a locker -- with enforcement based on existing resource damage statutes and NOT dependent on this maintenance guideline.

What do I drive? I park an Amigo with straight axles, ARB lockers, Marlin gearboxes, and 35-inch tires. When I kill the BFGs, I plan on 37s for better snow flotation. My wife has almost no experience but can drive the rig on Rubicon (ON the trail, not off in the bushes) without much challenge, outside of the sluices, Gatekeeper, and Cadillac Hill.

You guys wore me out on this topic -- did anyone ever think THAT would happen? I give up -- there's no consensus. I guess the county gets to decide.

Ryan, mebbe you should ask the county guys what size tires they run?

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Old 11-22-2005, 11:41 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Setting a 'standard' just doesnt seem like it will work. I'm not going to argue whether its the right thing to do or not, I just dont believe it is possible.

There are way to many variables: Trails can change constantly and driver abilities vary greatly(this being the most important aspect). Generally speaking, a full size rig needs more clearance and a more experienced driver than a short wheelbase.

Gatekeeper gets easier...more traffic flows through...that equates to more pressure, more erosion, trash and the sheer % of more people will mean a chance for more irresponsible behavior to occur.

No, I am not saying less capable vehicles, and their drivers/occupants create more problems because - thats not true, but rather more traffic = more impact on the trail, environment. Plain and simple...

It just seems that the environmentalists should be aware of this. If they want to fix the gatekeeper because of erosion or whatever the issue at hand is, they may be creating a bridge per say to a land of many, many more problems.

my .02. I've never driven the Rubicon but rather I gather this from many years of experience in the outdoors and on the trails, whether it be 4wheeling or fishing.
Hopefully I will be able to enjoy this trail next summer...I highly commend all those FOTR members and all the clubs for working so hard and putting personal time in to support this sport and keep this trail open.

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Old 11-22-2005, 11:53 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I just don't see the point of a maintenance schedule for it. Lets handle the problem points, keep the hard parts hard as to keep others not ready out, and continue to educate. Education is going to be key. We all already know what we need to do, we just need to get others to do it.
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Old 11-22-2005, 11:59 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I don't know that you will ever get a consensus on anything like this Doug/Randy. IMO you should take each section that needs work as an individual entity and try to maintain its current state. If the gatekeeper is hard, keep it hard but fix the underlying problem. If that cannot be done and a major fix that requires making the area easier then so be it. If that's what it takes to keep the trail open then do whatever it takes.

If you have to give the county a firm number why dont you just say 35's. Does it really matter what we tell them? If FOTR & the ROC are going to be such in integral part of all the trail maintenance wouldn't we have the final say anyway?

Doug, I take offense to your remarks about me not going to ROC meetings. I make every meeting that I can and stay as involved as possible. I spent countless hours on the phone with Randy helping to re-write sections of the RTMP and never expected to get anything out of it. Hell, I didn't see you at any of our Fordyce functions so I guess I can say the same thing to you when that trail gets screwed up because of all this crap on the Rubicon. If you don't think business' & organizations haven't been making parts of the trail(s) easier, like I said this happens in more places then the Rubicon, you haven't been paying attention.
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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If you don't think business' & organizations haven't been making parts of the trail(s) easier, like I said this happens in more places then the Rubicon, you haven't been paying attention.
This happens out here in AZ. The jeep tours in Sedona is a prime example, they have filled in and moved rocks and made several of the trails in the area easier. Its a very mild 4wheeling area, mild in the aspect most of the trails are fairly easy to moderate to begin with but they still make sure the are passable in their tour jeeps with 10 passengers gawking at the scenery. I guess the COG of gravity with 4 people practically sitting on the roof in the backseat doesnt fare well on off camber stuff..so they fill it in!
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Old 11-22-2005, 01:23 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Doggonit, I'm trying to get out of this thread, but Keith, I can't walk away from a quality volunteer who feels offended. You have been thoughtful and helpful with respect to the Rubicon and your adopted-trail a few valleys to the north. I weigh your comments heavily, because I know that more than most, you do show up to meetings as you can, and are willing to put your time and money where your mouth is when it comes to helping on the trail.

I get frustrated on many of these meetings which are a couple of hours from where I work and often held when I should be at work -- and I have been blistered by Karen Schambach for only attending SOME of the meetings (even more the pisser since she skipped a whole year's worth of meetings). That pissed me off, and I try not to do the same to anyone else.

These meetings simply can't be the only way to engage -- we need trusted representatives who can make our points for us when we can't make every meeting. FOTR has such folks at the ROC table, representing a wide array of different experience and equipment. Keep on keeping us honest as your representatives -- it is the only way this works. FOTR can't just be a few faces at a midday meeting -- it needs to continue to be the hardworking hundreds at work days.

Representatives are only effective if they can speak for the masses, which is why we ask questions like this to test for consensus. We don't have it on this issue... we'll keep trying. Please keep working with us -- it only works when we all work together.

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Old 11-22-2005, 01:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I said please show up and share your views. That shouldn't offend you. I'm sorry if i did, it was not my intent.

If you use your real name on this board I might realize who you are.
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