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Old 12-02-2005, 12:46 PM   #76 (permalink)
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This is an excellent thread...Much discussion...clearing the air and in the process I think people are beginning to understand better what FOTR is up against with the county. I'm sure Randii is wearing down fast as the new moderator. Randii keep up the good communication!!

My standard is 33's with a locker, but Sluice should be 35's with lockers...why...that's what I have... Seriously...sluice should be very tough for 33's a locker and a good driver. Expect damage kind of thing.

Another comment..."If you want to challenge yourself in an extreme rig...go to Johnson Valley." JoshC was I think shocked by this comment....correct me if I'm wrong...and I think many others would have been too.

Reality check:

The players are...County, FS, FOTR, private land owners, environmentalist and fish and game.

Honestly, not one of the above is even slightly fighting for Extreme rigs. Randii is the only real voice defending this cause and he is out numbered within FOTR and FOTR leadership. If you want to have this change, first start by speaking up on the FOTR email list. You have to get FOTR to move in your direction first. Be constructive...provide alternatives etc. Then go to the ROC meetings...if you can't make it find someone that can for you. Then and only then might the County lean in your direction. You might be able to plant idea's like developing an area for extreme wheeling. You might keep them from shutting out Green Stickers. You might get them to crack and split rocks in Sluice rather than make gravel out of them. In short, you might have a voice that virtually doesn't exist now. But this is for sure, unless you do something, you should expect the current pattern to continue.
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:05 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTPRETTY

Another comment..."If you want to challenge yourself in an extreme rig...go to Johnson Valley." JoshC was I think shocked by this comment....correct me if I'm wrong...and I think many others would have been too.

Reality check:

I am really trying to leave this stuff alone Marlon...

LOL... I spent 15 minutes searching for my actual quote so I could see what I actually said (I said a lot in the heat of the moment ). EDIT: But I couldn't find it.

Anyway, I'm not shocked with the thought of going elsewhere when I want to get my "get it" on. I really don't have a problem with that. Really. I've only been in LS two or three times as a matter of fact. I'm usually up there with my family and friends wheeling in, camping, taking pictures, etc. I just don't want to be kept off the trail because someone mistook my overbuilt rig as a part of "the problem".

I want to see the Rubicon preserved at it's current state as much as possible. I think we have been making a ton of progress in maintaining the trail, progress blocking bypasses, progress keeping the place clean, and progress in the way of educating trail users. I'd prefer that we left LS alone but I understand "why" and am watching some good ideas on "how" it's future is going to change.

I also understand who the stakeholders are and try to understand what there concerns are with regards to the tril they love just as sincerly. I have no desire to see the Rubicon turned into a 4x4 park or whatever. Please don't misunderstand me. I am scared because the way I read the RTMP it is going to be a 4x4 park in the near future.

I bet... The trail will be open thankfully, but it will be a very different trail as you pointed out, access will be limited to those who's rigs fit the standards, access will also be limited to once? twice per year per vehicle? Unless you want to buy a season pass. It will be plastered with signes and led by tour guides.
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Old 12-02-2005, 02:27 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NOTPRETTY
Randii is the only real voice defending this cause and he is out numbered within FOTR and FOTR leadership. continue.

Furthermore

I wouldn't use the term "fighting for extreme rigs", but I do think that Randy, Scott and Del are nowhere near an oppinion that anybody should be excluded from the trail except irresponsible, il prepared, jerkoffs.

I applaud Del for adding Randii to the team here on PBB and appreciate the opportunity to be heard.

EDIT: Took out 1st smart a$$ comment.
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:16 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
Doug is the only guy that I'm pretty confident would prefer that I am never able to bring my family out to enjoy the trail in my current rig.
Don't forget me... I don't think you should take your family in either. You really should finish putting in the back seat(s) first.

Ok, I wanted to laugh first, but really Josh, I think you (or your family w/ rig) are the baby in the bath water. I KNOW, and I think most people including Doug, know that it is not the rig, but the riders that are the problem. I also KNOW that you are part of the solution not the problem.

Maybe some have been guilty of rIGial profiling.

Im confident well find some middle ground.

A question to most of the buggy guys out there, if (when) the box gets blasted/cracked/rolled/paved, will you continue to make the trailer ride to the Rubicon? (should this question be in another thread?)
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:21 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I too would like to see all types of rigs allowed on the trail. I'd like to see all big and small rigs drive responsibly too. The reality is some of each don't. But I would have to say a larger rig driven by a jerkoff is capable of significanlty more damage...yes more than a small one. This is why the off-road community needs to come down hard on jerkoff's of all kind. They are threatening the trail.

Somebody said on one of these threads recently, that we are really dealing with a volume issue not a type of vehicle problem. I would have to agree in part. In my mind it is equally a volume/a$$hats problem which is causing the rapid degrading on the trail. Volume has come down in the past years, but it is still degrading. If we accept the fact that volume is part of the problem, there are two solutions...less volume or active management of the trail to deal with the volume. This is a main reason we need an RTMP. Without it the other option is to continue to make people want to leave the trail or set limits.
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:23 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I totally understand your concern about the RTMP language and it being a weekend at bernnies 4x4 park. I am very concerned too. Frankly, the RTMP will lay the foundation for the trail for years and maybe generation to come. FOTR's effort to get the RTMP language the way we want it is in my mind the single most important thing FOTR and its membership needs to do. I think FOTR needs to decide within its membership what it wants the RTMP to say....this is a massive undertaking with such a diverse set of opinions...and then be unified and fight like hell for it. FOTR is not that powerful...we have to be united and fight like hell to have any chance to get even a few changes. Hope is not lost, but it is going to take some compromises within our membership on all sides so we can get united and be effective.
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:36 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowYellow
A question to most of the buggy guys out there, if (when) the box gets blasted/cracked/rolled/paved, will you continue to make the trailer ride to the Rubicon? (should this question be in another thread?)
Heck yah.. I can get in my tow rig with my AC or my heated seats and drive home comfy like.
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:53 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowYellow
A question to most of the buggy guys out there, if (when) the box gets blasted/cracked/rolled/paved, will you continue to make the trailer ride to the Rubicon? (should this question be in another thread?)
You better believe it. I'll still be there and I'm sure that the Bloody Stump Wheelers will still make at least one run a year on the Con (if you think the name is foolish look at my avatar, we're serious). We feel that we have the right to run the trail, just as much as anyone else, even in our buggies and overbuilt jeeps and yotas. So yes, we will continue to go and enjoy the trail. My father took me for the first time when I was about 4 yrs. old and I sat in the back seat of a CJ-3B. Well, my daughter is now 4, and a 2 seat buggy is a lot different, but I would still like her to go.
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Old 12-02-2005, 03:54 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Josh,

You and I have gone around the dance floor before and I am getting tired of it.


"I just don't want to be kept off the trail because someone mistook my overbuilt rig as a part of "the problem"."

The only way you will be kept off the trail is if you drive like an idiot. Yes, I might have stated somewhere that people pushed rocks in to the Little Sluice so they could have more of a challenge for their extreme rigs. The people are the problem, not the rig.

I've always said, if you want more of a challenge on the Rubicon, build a more mild rig. Drive the trail on 31" tires.



"I am scared because the way I read the RTMP it is going to be a 4x4 park in the near future. "

I will now request that you quote the RTMP to back this statement up.



"access will be limited to those who's rigs fit the standards"

Any rig will be able to travel the Rubicon. The standard is for maintenance. Your rig, depending on it's specs will have a hard time, an easy time or just a good time.



"access will also be limited to once? twice per year per vehicle? Unless you want to buy a season pass. It will be plastered with signes and led by tour guides."

Again, please back this up with something. Ranting about things that can not be backed up do nothing for those of us trying to work to a solution.



"I wouldn't use the term "fighting for extreme rigs", but I do think that Randy, Scott and Del are nowhere near an oppinion that anybody should be excluded from the trail except irresponsible, il prepared, jerkoffs.

I applaud Del for adding Randii to the team here on PBB and appreciate the opportunity to be heard.

Doug is the only guy that I'm pretty confident would prefer that I am never able to bring my family out to enjoy the trail in my current rig."


If the personal shots continue, I will ask Randii and Scott to ban you from this board.

I don't think it's the vehicle, I think it's the driver. You can bring your Sledgehammer ready rig to the Rubicon but it won't be a challenge. I keep saying, if you want more of a challenge on the Rubicon, build a more mild rig. Drive the trail on 31" tires.




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Old 12-02-2005, 04:21 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowYellow
A question to most of the buggy guys out there, if (when) the box gets blasted/cracked/rolled/paved, will you continue to make the trailer ride to the Rubicon? (should this question be in another thread?)
Not a buggy but close to it, and yup I will still go. Been going since I was 2 yrs old, why stop now. Hard parts on the trail have been blown up before, its not like this is the first time that a cool section is gonna be blown to nothing.

Will have to take the bypass around the sluice if it gets blown up though, don't want to scrape my diffs on the HUGE rocks that the county leaves in place.
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Old 12-02-2005, 04:25 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
Josh,

You and I have gone around the dance floor before and I am getting tired of it.
Sorry Doug.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
I will now request that you quote the RTMP to back this statement up.
I am conveying my opinion. These statements arent in the RTMP. I have read the RTMP and formed my opinion based on what I read.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man

If the personal shots continue, I will ask Randii and Scott to ban you from this board.
EDIT: Took out second smart ass comment.
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Old 12-02-2005, 04:43 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
Josh,

You and I have gone around the dance floor before and I am getting tired of it.


"I just don't want to be kept off the trail because someone mistook my overbuilt rig as a part of "the problem"."

The only way you will be kept off the trail is if you drive like an idiot. Yes, I might have stated somewhere that people pushed rocks in to the Little Sluice so they could have more of a challenge for their extreme rigs. The people are the problem, not the rig.

I've always said, if you want more of a challenge on the Rubicon, build a more mild rig. Drive the trail on 31" tires.



"I am scared because the way I read the RTMP it is going to be a 4x4 park in the near future. "

I will now request that you quote the RTMP to back this statement up.


edit blah blah

.
Doug your post are a PITA to read. Could you please learn to use the Quote e button.
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Old 12-02-2005, 04:48 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Doug your post are a PITA to read. Could you please learn to use the Quote e button.
I'm sorry Doug but I'm LMFAO , he got ya. We need to laugh once in a while, and Old Scout nailed it.
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Old 12-02-2005, 04:53 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Last night I looked all over and couldn't find out how to quote like that.

Sorry, it won't happen again.
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Old 12-02-2005, 04:59 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
Last night I looked all over and couldn't find out how to quote like that.

Sorry, it won't happen again.
What's funny is that I know how to use it and I still didn't do it yesterday, instead I did the "Doug".
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Old 12-02-2005, 05:17 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Thanks Keith and Josh
I don't really think of either of you two as the stereotypical buggy guys, but then again maybe I'm generalizing based on my observations on the trail.

I wonder if I should ask this in the general section?

What I’m trying to show myself and the powers-that-be, if we take away the LS, the rigs will still be on the trail.
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Old 12-02-2005, 05:25 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Thanks Keith and Josh
I don't really think of either of you two as the stereotypical buggy guys, but then again maybe I'm generalizing based on my observations on the trail.

I wonder if I should ask this in the general section?

What I’m trying to show myself and the powers-that-be, if we take away the LS, the rigs will still be on the trail.
It's a good point Peter.

I believe the LS is a point of contention to many people/groups for many different reasons. To Marlon's point, the RTMP is, though painfull, a way to say... "hey we hear your concerns. Please don't close the trail. Here's a plan that we think will alleivate your concerns.

This stuff is going to happen unless we change the tide, let those in elected positions know that we can vote them out, and address those concerned by continuing to make progress managing and maintaining the trail. IMO obviously.
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Old 12-02-2005, 05:31 PM   #93 (permalink)
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What Im trying to show myself and the powers-that-be, if we take away the LS, the rigs will still be on the trail.
Yes, the rigs will still be there. The Rubicon is legend, that will never change, and if we can find middle ground between the buggy guys like myself and the light rockers like yourself, then the Rubicon can be maintained at a level that everyone will enjoy. And I mean enjoy for the views and not the carnage. Yes, in the recent past, I've gone to hit the LS and drive through it, but I also wanted to see the rest of the trail. Wanting to see the trail will never change. We (as in buggy people) just don't want to see it turn into all gravel, but I'm sure we (as in the entire user group) can understand what needs to happen to keep the trail open, and still provide the user group as a whole, with wheeling enjoyment. I have fun on the entire trail, not just the biggest of the boulders, and I think most everyone (99% of all the users of the trail) would agree.
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Old 12-02-2005, 06:28 PM   #94 (permalink)
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As yet, I know of no one advocating any policy that would ban, limit, restrict or eliminate a type of vehicle. The only thing that has been said is the future management of the trail may make the trail less entertaining to some of the 42's rigs. Anyone should be able to use the trail. It has been and should always be the policy of FOTR to avoid limits on specific types of vehicles and/or limits.
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Old 12-02-2005, 07:16 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Marlon, my friend, I disagree that I am the only one defending or fighting for extreme rigs. FOTR's leadership is fighting for ACCESS, a more general issue, but one that is equally important for a stock SUV or an extreme buggy. On Pirate4x4, I speak more to the modified and extreme side of things, and when I'm in FOTR or ROC meetings, I try to represent that sensibility. I rely on others from FOTR to represent the more stock side of things (though I try to consider both.) FOTR has a group of hard-working, rarely-thanked folks putting much time and energy into the cause, and I appreciate the diversity and conviction of these folks... and their patience in tolerating me.

I don't see any benefit in excluding anyone from the trail, regardless of what they drive, as long as they don't screw up the resource and practice good trail etiquette. For practical purposes, I recommend a minimum of a 2-speed transfer case, 31-inch tires, and a buddy with a strap, but that is a recommendation, not a requirement. If someone sweats me hard for a width recommendation, I counsel them to measure the width of the Rubicon Bridge and get back to me.

It all comes down to one question: can you recreate on the Rubicon with minimal impact to the resource and minimal conflicts with other users? If so, then I believe you should be able to access it regardless of tiresize, axle width, brand preference, gender, orientation, history, or whether you rolled up on a trailer. Overbuilt or underbuilt, I don't care -- if operated responsible with minimal impact and minimal conflicts, WELCOME!

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Old 12-02-2005, 07:25 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Good point that changing Little Sluice won't dramatically change traffic. Frankly, I think most of the folks who were gonna go away have already gone away courtesy of the Forest Service's recent closures. Even if more recreation opportunities are provided locally (would LOVE to see it), Rubicon is still something special, and will still draw folks. Trailer Guy nailed it when he said that Rubicon is legend, and that the views and the nature are the strongest attractions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailer Guy
...light rockers...

I've heard folks scoff at buggies and 'extreme vehicles' before, dismissing them as the root of all evil -- I've also damn near sprained an eyeball rolling my eyes at the generalization. I always wondered what the Extreeemies called the unwashed masses of lesser extremity, and now I know: light rockers! This is tough to reconcile with my classic rock musical tastes!
(tongue so firmly in cheek as to be borderline obscene)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailer Guy
We (as in buggy people) just don't want to see it turn into all gravel, but I'm sure we (as in the entire user group) can understand what needs to happen to keep the trail open, and still provide the user group as a whole, with wheeling enjoyment.
Lofty goals, well worthy of our time.

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Old 12-03-2005, 12:15 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Light Rocker...ouch...lol
Gotta love it.
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Old 12-03-2005, 08:57 AM   #98 (permalink)
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ok.. here is a thought..

if someone has a well built rig and goes to any trail..
they will try to do stuff to make it not boring to them..
like try to go over things that a lesser built rig can do.. hence the trail gets more abuse..
if a lesser rig goes on any trail they have a harder time going through it and will either have a good run or a bad run..
the next time they go to the trails they will be better.. due to the more experiance..
I for one have a daily driver..
so I cant do alot of extreeme stuff..
but here is the point.. I know my limits.. I dont go out to a trail and try to go up and over everything.. alot of times if there is a way around than going over I might concider it..


if there were bypasses like around sluice and other places for a built daily driver can go .. it would be better than paving the trail..


those with lesser built rigs have to go slower than moonbuggys..
and i dont like to be pushed through places..
I want to go and have a good run without distroying my rig..or being pushed literly through a tough spot for me..
I have only been as far as walker hill but thats because I dont know the trail.. and I dont want to go off the trail. I was following some people I know .. but had to turn back due to work.. I had to go to work that day..

I would like to see the trail marked all the way.. so those of us that dont know where the trail is can stay on it ..

another trail that needs markers is fordyce..


my .02

thanks for all the help and congrats to everyone who is trying to keep this trail open


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Old 12-03-2005, 11:05 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randii
Marlon, my friend, I disagree that I am the only one defending or fighting for extreme rigs. FOTR's leadership is fighting for ACCESS, a more general issue, but one that is equally important for a stock SUV or an extreme buggy. ........

Randii
I agree with everything you said. I too think all types of rigs should be allowed. Yes, it is the driver. No vehicle type should be discriminated against. 100% in agreement. And yes, the general policy of FOTR to avoid limits of all kind shows support. I hate posting...because it never really reflects your intentions/meaning. I'll pm you and then talk about what I was getting at.

I will say...if your against sluice being flattened, you need to get involved now.
__________________
Just go...

Passionately centerist. We're slowly being killed by the far left and far right.
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Old 12-03-2005, 12:13 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NOTPRETTY
I hate posting...because it never really reflects your intentions/meaning. I'll pm you and then talk about what I was getting at.
No worries, bro. I look forward to discussing it further, and just wanted to underline my respect for other folks fighting the good fight for FOTR.

Randii
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