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Old 12-10-2005, 06:13 PM   #201 (permalink)
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Sorry for the long delay between posts, I had to work for a min. there and sell a trailer. Well, it gave me some time to think. I got mad because I just didn't get how you could maintain a 4-wheel drive trail without risking/getting body damage. I know that good driving skills can get you through a tough trail without body damage, and I don't even feel like the Rubicon is tough. The Little Sluice in its present condition leaves a lot to challenge, but that is it. Plus, there is no way you can maintain a trail to a body damage standard, so enough is enough. Doug, sorry, what I/we are doing here isn't helping the issue. It is just hard to see eye to eye when we wheel two totally different vehicles, and are two totally different people (probably not in to many ways though). I for one, just can't see how we can set a standard to maintain by using vehicles. Erosion is the one key problem that starts all things that we have to maintain. Rocks don't get in the trail without erosion, or humans but I think we can all agree, that is wrong and should be dealt with right away. Trees fall on the trail, either by wind or erosion, which the trees will have to be dealt with right away. All vehicles, whether they have 31's or 44's cause erosion. We seem to all agree that the amount of erosion caused by a vehicle is not the vehicles problem, but the drivers problem. So maybe we should look at fixing the problem spot or spots, and then set the standard to keep erosion from continuing on the trail from where it stands now. Of course the problem spots will have to be fixed and they will each have to be fixed to different degrees. So why not maintain the trail in the condition it sits now to prevent future erosion, fix the problem areas, and focus more on education. 99% of the trail can be ran right now with rigs discribed throughout this thread. Only the problem areas are the problems. The Little Sluice and other areas are going to be fixed, to what degree, well, that is up to the committee's in charge of fixing those area's. We are talking about maintaining the trail, so why not set the standard to the trail in it's present condition and let the committee's fixing each problem area do their jobs. A bad thing happened with the Gatekeeper, but if a committee of wheelers was in on helping, that problem area could have been resolved in a better way. Yes, this is vague, and so is a certain vehicle because who knows what driver is behind the wheel. But, I think the standard will have to be vague, because each problem will present a different challenge to fix. To what degree do we fix the problem? To what ever degree is takes for it to be fixed. It is too hard to say and write on paper the degree something has to be fixed. We won't really know to what degree the Little Sluice is going to be fixed untell we get out there, get our hands dirty, and see what happens. And I think each problem will have to be handled in the same manner, don't really know tell you get there. I think the standard to maintain the trail is simple, keep future erosion from accuring by taking the proper steps to prevent it in the areas it is needed. Fix the problem areas that are effecting the trail presently to a state that they can be maintained to prevent future problems. Educate the user base by any and all means available. And most importantly, police our own. If we can do these four things, we can all enjoy the trail together. Like I said, it might have to be vague since each situation will present different problems and take different solutions to fix.
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Old 12-10-2005, 06:26 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trailer Guy
Erosion is the one key problem that starts all things that we have to maintain. Rocks don't get in the trail without erosion, or humans but I think we can all agree, that is wrong and should be dealt with right away.

just for fun, recognize this spot? In all honesty it might not be where I think it is..

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Old 12-10-2005, 06:52 PM   #203 (permalink)
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The Rubicon has historically been a family/camping Jeep trail.
I take issue with the term 'Jeep Trail' and it pisses me off to see it on forest service maps.

I've been running the Rubicon since the early '90's in Toyotas. I respect the trail, respect other users of the trail, and would like to see people leave it alone. Fix what needs to be fixed, erosion problems, etc. Other than that, leave it alone. Don't make it harder, don't make it easier.

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Old 12-10-2005, 06:59 PM   #204 (permalink)
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You guys need to go wheeling more.
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Old 12-10-2005, 07:45 PM   #205 (permalink)
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just for fun, recognize this spot? In all honesty it might not be where I think it is..

Looks like Walker Hill.

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Old 12-10-2005, 07:57 PM   #206 (permalink)
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I still stand by my posts of getting the trail back to the early 90's.
I can't agree, Doug. That's too vague, IMHO, and we'd never get agreement.

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Personally, I would like to see the trail maintained to the point where an average driver in 95" wheel base vehicle with 31" tires an appropriate lift and one locker could run every part of the trail.
I like that you are willing to compromise to 33's from this, which is your own personal opinion. Me, personally, my magic number is 35, maybe with a compromise to 33s, based on the tire sizes I have run AND what I see for many users on the trail.

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I'd rather see smaller rigs and better drivers than huge rigs and idiots driving.
Seems like you are generalizing, now, Doug. I see idiots behind the wheel of rigs with many wheelbases, many widths, and many tire sizes.

We're so close to agreement on so many other issues, but I am beginning to despair on getting agreement of a maintenance standard. It does scare me to have to put all my hope in the County to come up with their own maintenance guidelines, tho!

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Old 12-10-2005, 07:59 PM   #207 (permalink)
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I was helping arrange pirate cleanups long before there was a FOTR. You say the county will maintain and now you say FOTR. I don't think FOTR is the county. FOTR can't maintain the entire trail - unless managed differently (adopt a club per section). I know people TRY to maintain the trail but it is nobody's responsibility (well it is the county but they don't do anything) to upkeep each and every section of the trail.

BTW Doug, some people dig body damage and could get it in the shopping mall, difficulty of trail has little to do with it. Lotsa people like to play bumper cars and it doesn't even take a trail to do that. Don't base anything on body damage..
Brandon,

I realize that the Pirates had an annual clean up going long before FOTR. I put the Pirates as one of the clubs taking the trail as an adopt-a-trail (maybe not officially).

FOTR is not the county. And there is a plan being worked on to write new adopt-a-trail agreements with clubs for the county road, the FS agreements are void since the county reclaimed the Rubicon. The plan is to divide the trail in to smaller more managable sections.

If you want to play bumpers cars with each other or the rocks, go ahead. I don't see the thrill of replacing body panels.





Quote:
I take issue with the term 'Jeep Trail' and it pisses me off to see it on forest service maps.

I've been running the Rubicon since the early '90's in Toyotas. I respect the trail, respect other users of the trail, and would like to see people leave it alone. Fix what needs to be fixed, erosion problems, etc. Other than that, leave it alone. Don't make it harder, don't make it easier.

Mark,

I purposly used the term Jeep there. If you re-read all of my posts I do not refer the Rubicon as a Jeep trail. I did so in this instance as a historical referece. Yes, Land Cruisers have been around a very long time, but the trails are called Jeep trails because that is the vehicle that used to drive them.

My appologies if this bothered you it was not my intent to offend anyone.





.
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:04 PM   #208 (permalink)
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I'd rather see smaller rigs and better drivers than huge rigs and idiots driving.

Seems like you are generalizing, now, Doug. I see idiots behind the wheel of rigs with many wheelbases, many widths, and many tire sizes.

My appologies again. Please replace the word idiots with unskilled drivers.
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Old 12-10-2005, 08:18 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Comments about a standard level of maintenance be it a vehicle standard or rock size measurement will include every inch of the trail and legal bypasses! That includes the Little Sluice.
I'm not sure the County agrees. I certainly don't!

IMHO, as long as a maintained route exists for travel from Loon and Wentworth to Tahoma, not every stretch will need maintained. Postpile, Little Sluice, and True Sluice need protected from vandalism, but should NOT be maintained to the same standard as the rest of the trail -- all have well-established highly-passable alternate routes. Dunno if that means establishing a second standard -- MAN, would that suck, considering how hard it is to generate ONE standard.

Discussing a standard is important, but I'm gonna focus on working the sub-group to identify a short-term repair proposal for the County. Seems like we are closer to finding a short-term repair than developing a long-term standard. These are related but separate issues, and IMHO the County will move to resolve Little Sluice first, with or without enthusiast support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Man
Those drivers that do go out expecting damage are driving a trail that is too tough for them, their rig, they are just bad drivers or they just don't care about their vehicle or the environment.
You are generalizing again, Doug. Please reel it back, bud!

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Old 12-10-2005, 08:27 PM   #210 (permalink)
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Sorry for the long delay between posts, I had to..................................... solutions to fix.
Gawd that gave me a headache. Paragraphs are kind of nice sometimes.

Your 4 points were:

1. Keep future erosion from accuring by taking the proper steps to prevent it in the areas it is needed.

2. Fix the problem areas that are affecting the trail presently to a state that they can be maintained to prevent future problems.

3. Educate the user base by any and all means available.

4. Police our won.

I would agree with those 4 basic steps.

A listing/description of potential "future problems" might help. Human waste, erosion, widening of the trail, illegal bypasses, illegal trail modification, encroachment on the 50 ft easment for camping/parking?, fluid spill concerns, tow rig parking, party atmosphere locations such as Little Sluice that compound some of the above and I'm sure there are plenty I have missed.

If we have a basic understanding of as many "future problems" as possible then we might be able to recognize them and respond before they become a glaring issue with the governing bodies. Once the county ect start focusing on an issue it seems we loose control.

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Old 12-10-2005, 08:40 PM   #211 (permalink)
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Ten minutes ago I was frustrated enough to punch out of this thread for the day and go sweep the shop. I'm glad I stayed -- Aaron, you nailed some great point. Doug, you rephrased and made good sense. Robert, you helped break down the stream of consciousness to good points...

If we can continue to take breathers and come back to this fresh, as above, I believe we can find common ground and create proposals to put to the County with our support. I believe the County will listen to multiple voices in unison.

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Old 12-10-2005, 09:16 PM   #212 (permalink)
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Those drivers that do go out expecting damage are driving a trail that is too tough for them, their rig, they are just bad drivers or they just don't care about their vehicle or the environment.

You are generalizing again, Doug. Please reel it back, bud!

Randii


Randii,

I'll stand by that statement until you explain why you think it's a generalization.
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Old 12-10-2005, 09:30 PM   #213 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Simple Man
Comments about a standard level of maintenance be it a vehicle standard or rock size measurement will include every inch of the trail and legal bypasses! That includes the Little Sluice.
I'm not sure the County agrees. I certainly don't!

IMHO, as long as a maintained route exists for travel from Loon and Wentworth to Tahoma, not every stretch will need maintained. Postpile, Little Sluice, and True Sluice need protected from vandalism, but should NOT be maintained to the same standard as the rest of the trail -- all have well-established highly-passable alternate routes. Dunno if that means establishing a second standard -- MAN, would that suck, considering how hard it is to generate ONE standard.

Discussing a standard is important, but I'm gonna focus on working the sub-group to identify a short-term repair proposal for the County. Seems like we are closer to finding a short-term repair than developing a long-term standard. These are related but separate issues, and IMHO the County will move to resolve Little Sluice first, with or without enthusiast support.
Quote:
Postpile, Little Sluice, and True Sluice need protected from vandalism, but should NOT be maintained to the same standard as the rest of the trail -- all have well-established highly-passable alternate routes.
Refering to the Little Sluice (and possibly the True Sluice), illegal actions blocked my use of the original trail. I don't believe that the criminals should be rewarded by leaving the Little Sluice like it is. It should be returned to the state it was in before the illegal actions.
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Old 12-10-2005, 11:58 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Those drivers that do go out expecting damage are driving a trail that is too tough for them, their rig, they are just bad drivers or they just don't care about their vehicle or the environment.
You offer three options:
A.) they are just bad drivers -- Not necessarily.
B.) they just don't care about their vehicle -- Well, perhaps not cosmetically!
C.) the environment -- Not necessarily.
Connecting any of these three elements is IMHO generalizing.

Doug, though I personally respect users more when they succeed on difficult lines on the trail without damaging their rig, I have no problem if someone damages their vehicle on the trail as long as they clean up after themselves and don't damage the trail. Granite is tough!

Caring about the trail and caring about one's vehicle are separate things -- related, perhaps, but separate. IMHO we must focus on minimizing impact to the resource and not worry about how folks drive beyond that, or whether they value straight sheet metal.

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Old 12-11-2005, 12:28 AM   #215 (permalink)
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Refering to the Little Sluice (and possibly the True Sluice), illegal actions blocked my use of the original trail. I don't believe that the criminals should be rewarded by leaving the Little Sluice like it is.
Agreed, agreed.

Quote:
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It should be returned to the state it was in before the illegal actions.
It is practically impossible to separate out the illegal actions from the effects of traffic and lack of maintenance: they've combined to exacerbate each other.

I suggest we reduce and/or rearrange some of the biggest boulders in the sluice, as the agencies should have done immediately after they were pulled in. Vandalism needs repaired quickly, lest it lead to more vandalism (hindsight is 20-20).

Beyond those few rocks, it is a maintenance issue, where "illegal" and "criminal reward" no longer apply. IMHO, as long as a maintained route exists for travel from Loon and Wentworth to Tahoma, not every stretch will need maintained.

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Old 12-11-2005, 06:31 AM   #216 (permalink)
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Randii - give me a rig on 33's and I'll do the ENTIRE trail, including the box. 33's or 35's means nothing except a few minutes quicker

Doug - I don't play bumper cars, my truck has been through the trail and the box more times than I could possibly remember and I could count the dents on one hand, but that doesn't mean those with a million dents wouldn't have them if the trail was easier.
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Old 12-11-2005, 09:20 AM   #217 (permalink)
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Those drivers that do go out expecting damage are driving a trail that is too tough for them, their rig, they are just bad drivers or they just don't care about their vehicle or the environment.
You offer three options:
A.) they are just bad drivers -- Not necessarily.
B.) they just don't care about their vehicle -- Well, perhaps not cosmetically!
C.) the environment -- Not necessarily.
Connecting any of these three elements is IMHO generalizing.

Doug, though I personally respect users more when they succeed on difficult lines on the trail without damaging their rig, I have no problem if someone damages their vehicle on the trail as long as they clean up after themselves and don't damage the trail. Granite is tough!

Caring about the trail and caring about one's vehicle are separate things -- related, perhaps, but separate. IMHO we must focus on minimizing impact to the resource and not worry about how folks drive beyond that, or whether they value straight sheet metal.

Randii


You got the first option wrong and left out number two.

I said the trail was too tough for them, I didn't say they were bad drivers. The second point was that the trail was too tough for their vehicle.

I applied these to people who EXPECT body damage. I realize that stuff happens and any one of us on any basic trail could have something go wrong and receive body damage.

But if when you shift in to 4-lo and think I wonder which quarter panel I'm going to dent today, you will fit in to one of the four options listed below.


You're driving a trai too tough for you
You're driving a trail too tough for your rig
You don't care about your vehicle
You don't care about the environment


This is not something we should be wasting time discussing. I just don't like to be told I'm wrong. I will (and have) apologize when I miss-speak (type). But I'll defend something I believe is correct.
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:21 AM   #218 (permalink)
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Doug, you and I disagree on most things, but I SOMEWHAT agree with your statement . Of the four options it is possible that you fall inot ONE, but not necessarily all. In my case I dont care about my vehicle, but I do care about the environment, the trail is NOT too tough for me, the trail is NOT too tough for my vehicle.

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Old 12-11-2005, 11:21 AM   #219 (permalink)
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I know you work hard for the trail, so even when I disagree, I will do so respectfully.

To me, the bottom line is actual impact to the trail. We may have to agree to disagree on this one, as I know skilled drivers with a taste for the extreme who are no stranger to body damage, but are great stewards of the trail. Perhaps that fits your "don't care for vehicle" point, but I'm not sure that's something we should be trying to fix. Let's focus on repairing the damage that was done to the trail long ago, and then complicated by weather and traffic.

You're not wrong, buddy, we just disagree!

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Old 12-11-2005, 12:20 PM   #220 (permalink)
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Maybe it wasn't clear that not everyone fits in to one of these four catagories. Only those that expect boady damage when they go wheeling.

Quote:
Doug, you and I disagree on most things, but I SOMEWHAT agree with your statement . Of the four options it is possible that you fall inot ONE, but not necessarily all. In my case I dont care about my vehicle, but I do care about the environment, the trail is NOT too tough for me, the trail is NOT too tough for my vehicle.
I don't fit in to any of these because I don't expect body damage when I go out. Just because you have received body damage doesn't mean I think you don't care about the environment.

The Pirates are a great example of this, over the past few years few clubs have done as much to clean up the trail at the end of the year. They do care about the trail. But they don't always care about their vehicles.
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Old 12-11-2005, 11:20 PM   #221 (permalink)
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I feel that the sluice will be a crowd drawer.. but what we have is another situation
if the crowd .. god forbid..
does what was done at spider we have a major problem..

anytime there is a major gathering we have people doing what was forbiden (the paper flowers..)

I do feel that the word is getting out there and alot more people are using the corect methods of sanitation.. (thank god)



I would love to see the carnage at the hard spots..
but I dont want to see the fluids all over the place either..

we should have stations for itms like cat litter .. bags.. for cleanup issues

any other thoughts???


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Old 12-12-2005, 06:15 AM   #222 (permalink)
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we should have stations for itms like cat litter .. bags.. for cleanup issues
Mike, in the past kits made specifically for oil spills have been handed out at the Loon Lake trailhead to those entering the Con. Spill kits can also be purchased on an individual basis at auto parts stores and I would imagine places like WalMart.

That actually brings up an interesting twist on the minimum rig standard that we havn't hashed out yet. Rather than tires size, wheelbase ect ect with which driver it would be much easier to identify "rig" qualifications based on what the rig has with it on the trail aka..oil spill kit, garbage bags (burlap bag ect), trail sanitation kit be it the PETT system or other.
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Old 12-12-2005, 09:07 AM   #223 (permalink)
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The idea of what rigs should carry has been brought up in sub-comittee meetings of the ROC. The list that Cal4wheel requires each fun-run participant to carry was the list brought up.

CA4WDC's Safety Requirements All vehicles must be maintained to conform to highway safety standards, as well as meet the minimum requirements listed below:

1.Roll bar or full cage or factory hard top

2.Functional Parking brake or Mico-Lock

3.Tow strap or rope. (recommend rated at 2 times the vehicle weight).

4.First aid kit (what do you want when you are hurt?)

5.Jack capable of lifting the vehicle and a tool capable of removing lug nuts
(don't forget your wheel locks)

6.Spare tire equal to or within 3 inches of existing tires on the vehicle. (no temporary spares).

7.Fire extinguisher with gauge indicating good/full, appropriately stored

8.Seat belts for all passengers

9.Antennas must not exceed 4'6" (except when longer antennas/whips are required by certain OHV areas).

10.Adequate attachment points front and rear, i.e., tow hooks, receiver, etc. Tow balls are generally not recommended.

11.Battery hold downs (no bungie cords)


In addition to this list it was brought up that a suggested list of items to bring could be published.

Spill Kit
Trash bags
WAG Bags
Spare parts


who knows what else...


If you have any suggestions or comments along these lines please e-mail the ROC at:

[email protected]
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Old 12-12-2005, 11:26 AM   #224 (permalink)
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uh, do we really want someone to do a safety inspection on every single vehicle that goes on the trail? Come awn..

I think the idea was to standardize the TRAIL, not the rigs..
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Old 12-12-2005, 12:26 PM   #225 (permalink)
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with that list right there you just blocked access to a ton of people. I miss out on at least 3 of them.

"All vehicles must be maintained to conform to highway safety standards"

Yeah not so much

"Jack capable of lifting the vehicle and a tool capable of removing lug nuts"

I have a winch cable and a tree saver.

"Spare tire equal to or within 3 inches of existing tires on the vehicle"

Plugs plugs and more plugs

As for spill kits they are good idea no matter where you go. One of our members helped Blue Devil Products put together a real good kit and our club carries at least 1 on every single one of our outings.

No idea how you could EVER enforce any of this stuff. They cant even get patrol out there as it is and we are talking about doing rig inspections??? Just not logistically possible imho.

Can someone tell me when there was vandalism in the Old Sluice? I have been running that section of trail for AT LEAST 14 years now and it really hasnt changed imo. (When compared to other parts of the trail)

Pull out the rocks that were artificially added to the box and a rig on 33's is still gonna have a hell of a time. I just wish that people would stop with the vandalism this, illegal actions that talk. Yes everybody knows that there were at least 3 big guys thrown into the box. Get over it, what is done is done. Lets look to the future and decide what is going to happen in the box. Why don't we start by breaking up the one's that are known to be artificially added and see what that does to the difficulty??? Seems to me that if you break those up it would give you a pretty good start.

Simple man. I just don't understand your point about making the entire trail passable to the standard rig. Does that mean that we are going to walk every single section of trail once this "standard rig" stuff is decided and say nope too hard and change it? I thought the "standard rig" was a way of handling future MAINTENANCE projects. So what are we talking about here? Maintenance or changing the entire trail to suit a certain type of rig? Suiting the ENTIRE trail to one type of rig is just as bad as throwing a huge boulder in the box imo.

Also, I somewhat disagree with your point that the Con is a camping/fishing type trail, etc. The rubicon became what it is today because it was seen as a HARD trail. Read all the literature out there from anyone and they talk about the Rubicon being the grand daddy, and a 10 degree of difficulty on all scales, blah blah blah. That said, its not that way anymore, its been passed by a million other trails and I'm not saying it should be an extreme trail, but it also shouldn't be altered for the entire length so a guy on 31's or 32's or whatever can get through with no issues. Leave the trail as is and use the maintenance standard when doing MAINTENANCE and at no other time.

my $.02
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