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Old 09-01-2008, 10:20 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Mike, this has been thrashed before with no real solution... one of the problems of the multiple agencies in the mix. Solutions from helicoptered honey pots, to Unimog sucker-trucks, to desicating loos, to composting toilets have been suggested and discussed (Yosemite and Whitney discussed specifically, IIRC). My hope is that after getting the new CXT in at Loon, we can start this dialogue again, this time with the good relationship and position that we have with El Dorado County (EDC) and the EDC Department of Transportation.

Some of our past partners have appeared to cooperate on the surface, but worked outside the room to fight us. Now more than ever before, I have high hopes that the Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) can plow through the politics and put good work on the ground...

The spillway CXT is an acid test... let's hang back and see what the update is there -- the second Thursday of September. As I understand it, EDC DOT and ENF have a signed agreement for the CXT, and a vendor has been contracted to do the installation. The wheels are in motion, let's see where they take us.

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Old 09-01-2008, 11:16 PM   #27 (permalink)
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The spillway CXT is an acid test... let's hang back and see what the update is there -- the second Thursday of September. As I understand it, EDC DOT and ENF have a signed agreement for the CXT, and a vendor has been contracted to do the installation. The wheels are in motion, let's see where they take us.
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:56 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Why have one at the loon kiosk? Isn't there one across the dam at the campground?

Multiple reasons...

1. Getting people to poo at the beginning of the trail will likely keep the first several hours of the trail clean. Back me up on this, especially ladies...wouldn't most folks see the "last chance" CXT whilst airing down and use it?

2. easy to access and easy to clean.

3. In the past the area behind the kiosk has been heavily abused and cleaned up multiple times.

4. It's easy to get to and pump out.


That being said, I would like to see Little Sluice get a toilet for all the reasons mentioned above.

Like Scott and Randy said, work this thru channels if you have a new idea, new funding source, or best of all, new energy to pursue it. Those of us that are active in these fights survive and prevail by consistently being there and working the system. It is sometimes a lesson in frustration, but the only way to get it done in a way that won't cause problems.

If you were to place a full-on toilet in an area of the forest that could be noticed, the FS would simply remove it in the absence of NEPA, comment period, archelogical studies, environmental impact report, approval, and etc. May seem overkill, but those are the rules.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Why have one at the loon kiosk? Isn't there one across the dam at the campground?

.
Those are really there for the paying campers at the camp grounds.
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:24 AM   #30 (permalink)
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1. Getting people to poo at the beginning of the trail will likely keep the first several hours of the trail clean. Back me up on this, especially ladies...wouldn't most folks see the "last chance" CXT whilst airing down and use it?
I totally agree with you on this. We always make a "last stop" for a flushing toilet and running water before we hit the trail head. Then we always stop at the campgound ones too. It was so nice to have the port-o-poties in the spillway and kiosk this weekend. I can't wait to have them there full time.
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:37 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Mike, this has been thrashed before with no real solution... one of the problems of the multiple agencies in the mix. Solutions from helicoptered honey pots, to Unimog sucker-trucks, to desicating loos, to composting toilets have been suggested and discussed (Yosemite and Whitney discussed specifically, IIRC). My hope is that after getting the new CXT in at Loon, we can start this dialogue again, this time with the good relationship and position that we have with El Dorado County (EDC) and the EDC Department of Transportation.

Some of our past partners have appeared to cooperate on the surface, but worked outside the room to fight us. Now more than ever before, I have high hopes that the Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC) can plow through the politics and put good work on the ground...

The spillway CXT is an acid test... let's hang back and see what the update is there -- the second Thursday of September. As I understand it, EDC DOT and ENF have a signed agreement for the CXT, and a vendor has been contracted to do the installation. The wheels are in motion, let's see where they take us.

Randii
The CXT is being put in next month at Loon Lake. It's going to be a vault toilet that is maintained. Truck pulls up and pumps it.

The #1 issue with a restroom at sluice will be maintenance. So despite any funding available or raised - the bigger cost for a fully functioning toilet would be to service it at that location.

This will likely result in a composting toilet being the most feasible solution. As far as keeping it clean - we can police ourselves. There's plenty good folks out there that are willing to take the extra time to make things right. Just look at how far we've come with everyone being happy to pack trash out, and pick up any trash left by others. The same good will can be applied to the restroom. Personally, I'd remember to bring some gloves and wipes and give it a once over anytime I go out.


The first thing that has to happen is a proposal has to be written up. Before that happens we need an exact location to propose. Randii - if you or any folks from ROC or Friends of Rubicon will be up there this weekend, perhaps we can take a walk around the sluice and all together decide where would be best. After we have a drawn up project plan, we can submit that to the county DOT. Without that done, we cannot go forward to submit for a special use permit with the forest. Everyone has to be on board for this, all the channels. It may be that funding could be available as a grant for any of the organizations. Any shortfall on the cash can be made up by volunteers willing to have fundraisers.


I'll be up there this weekend taking pictures, getting Lats and Longs, and taking measurements in an effort to at least figure out the best spot for it if it can happen. If any of you guys are out there and see a few fellas with cameras and tape measures and taking notes - say hello to us. Otherwise, I'll get back to you all after the weekend.

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Old 09-09-2008, 01:08 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Keep in mind, the biggest thing that can screw up a composting toilet system are things that are not compost friendly to the worms inside...

IE: Aluminum Cans & plastics (bottles & wrappers).
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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The #1 issue with a restroom at sluice will be maintenance.
Agreed. Whether we wind up with a composting solution (frequent minor maintenance) or a vault toilet (occasional major maintenance -- pumping), maintenance is the rub. As remote as the area is, we can get materials and labor in to build it one time -- long-term maintenance is more complicated, especially when you bring the agencies into it.

I'll suggest a potential second issue -- by making the Little Sluice area 'more attractive' to campers, are we shooting ourselves in the foot? The Sluice is already attractive enough that the areas surrounding it are suffering. I won't say the area is over-camped, but I will suggest that certain users exercising poor hygiene, poor clean-up, poor manners, and poor low-impact camping practices are making heavier impact than they could be...

I don't think we're to the proposal stage yet, but I'm willing to work with you if you want to get started. Again, I think that the best place to start is the County's Rubicon Oversight Committee meeting on Thursday morning. El Dorado County has worked with Eldorado National Forest to create cooperative agreements for kiosk, oil vaults, and restrooms -- that's probably the best way to do this, as well.

FWIW, I'm not available this weekend, but can synch with you after courtesy of GoogleEarth. You've got PM...

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Old 09-09-2008, 07:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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What about the the pit toilet at Barrett Lake? Who "maintains" that? A couple of those along the trail would be awesome. It is already in the Eldorado National Forest, so one would think that they would allow more of that style to be built.

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Old 09-09-2008, 07:53 PM   #35 (permalink)
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1. Getting people to poo at the beginning of the trail will likely keep the first several hours of the trail clean. Back me up on this, especially ladies...wouldn't most folks see the "last chance" CXT whilst airing down and use it?
It would be nice to use one there, instead of the campground potty. Myself and the kids are guilty of stopping there as a "last chance" potty break.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:49 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Agreed.
I'll suggest a potential second issue -- by making the Little Sluice area 'more attractive' to campers, are we shooting ourselves in the foot? The Sluice is already attractive enough that the areas surrounding it are suffering. I won't say the area is over-camped, but I will suggest that certain users exercising poor hygiene, poor clean-up, poor manners, and poor low-impact camping practices are making heavier impact than they could be...
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I hate to say it but I agree!!!
Do we want to draw more attention to an already heavily scrutinized area? I'm all for policing and educating our own and we have seen great success with this but I wonder if we can achieve this in this area? We've seen toilets in this area before, we've also seen them vandalized and destroyed. I would just hate to give the enviro's more ammo for more area closures.

Headline...."Spider Lake closed due to Poo, Sluice Box closed due to overflowing and vandalized toilets" , "we tried to help the offroad community but look"

I feel everyones pain here. This is a tough decision. Do we just continue to try and educate where we can and hope people start taking better care of the area or do we become proactive and start bringing the amenities of the city to the trail. Whats next, Dumpsters at Buck?

I don't have all the answers and to be quite honest I don't think any one does but I will say this, I haven't lost sight of why I started going to these wonderful places to begin with and that sure as hell wasn't to see public restrooms full of crap. We are all capable of being responsible, lets help others do the same.

To answer the original question, I think the Loon Lake location is great!!!
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Old 09-10-2008, 10:07 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I had a talk with My Blue Cruiser about this overthe weekend.

I believe she has a valid point. we need to start with peer pressure. When you see someone headed off with a roll of TP, ask the question and put on the pressure for them to be responsible. See a gal coming back? Ask if there is a new flower...................

There is a bit of a taboo about this subject, but we need to approach it to make headway.

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Old 09-10-2008, 10:22 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I would just hate to give the enviro's more ammo for more area closures.
This is my concern too, Tim.

Ask yourself some questions here:

Why is the forest service allowing vehicle access in violation of their own regulations...but just in this one spot? Could it be they know that this is the perfect area to use as leverage to close the entire trail corridor to camping? I've heard this "trail corridor closure" suggestion in ROC meetings from some of the "closurist" crowd, and I've seen it addressed seriously by the FS, giving it credence.

These same closurists frequent the Rubicon on foot on a regular basis. They have made complaints to the water board about siltation (which the water board must, by law, investigate), they've taken clandestine pictures that have shown up on websites supporting their cause. I've personally seen them taking pictures from the bushes during the melt. They've made complaints to both the Forest Service and the County about hazmat spills and high levels of petrolem ditillates in the ground on the trail. That being the case, after making long and loud complaints of every other kind, why haven't they presented documentation to support the closure/blasting/re-route of Little Sluice? Could it be that they're giving us enough rope to hang ourselves?
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:29 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Loon is a great start.

Personally, I think one at both Spider/the Sluice Box area and Buck Island would be great as well.

I don't think adding a trail potty to either of those locations would add noticeable trail traffic to the area (they get plenty already), but it would help eliminate the flowers left my inconsiderate users.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:01 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I'll suggest a potential second issue -- by making the Little Sluice area 'more attractive' to campers, are we shooting ourselves in the foot? The Sluice is already attractive enough that the areas surrounding it are suffering. I won't say the area is over-camped, but I will suggest that certain users exercising poor hygiene, poor clean-up, poor manners, and poor low-impact camping practices are making heavier impact than they could be...
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I hate to say it but I agree!!!
Do we want to draw more attention to an already heavily scrutinized area? I'm all for policing and educating our own and we have seen great success with this but I wonder if we can achieve this in this area? We've seen toilets in this area before, we've also seen them vandalized and destroyed. I would just hate to give the enviro's more ammo for more area closures.
Fellas, we're getting into chicken/egg territory here. The reason for the toilet at sluice is due to the "existing" and current congestion of traffic there. Will it increase with a restroom? Perhaps. But to keep focus we are trying to heal an existing wound here. The wound is there, let's fix it and try our best to self police it.

With more and more people there, it's less and less likely for any one person to get out of line because of the peer pressure and witnesses available to incriminate any vandals.

Build it and they will come? They're already here, and accept it or not - they are going to the bathroom. I'd rather have that waste in a compost than sitting around like little landmines all over the creation.

Personally, I could make the promise that every time I hit that trail, I'd bring gloves and some cleaning supplies and give the bathroom a once over. If only 1 out of 20 trucks did the same thing - it would be a clean bathroom.

I'd be willing to put together a little brochure about the bathroom that people pick up at the kiosk, with reminders and emphasis on how critical it is to keep it legit out there.


I'm going to solicit more feedback from people this weekend when I'm out there as well. Pictures and more to come following the weekend.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:08 PM   #41 (permalink)
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One thing you need to understand that this project of your will be the YotaUp bathroom at little Sluice if this is the only venue in which you propose this project. Not sure how much more clear I can represent this to you. I hope you are on the same page.

I will be in the Caretakers Cabin in Rubicon Springs on Saturday if you would like to talk to me direct about this.

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Old 09-10-2008, 01:18 PM   #42 (permalink)
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You guys just reminded me. I forgot to pull out the WAG bags I used from my last trip to Fordyce. They are still in my potty bucket

I agree having the outhouse at spider IS a good idea for the above mentioned. Most folks dont travel the trail as far as buck, and it ends up being about half way to the next potty hole at the springs.
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Old 09-10-2008, 08:43 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Regarding future maintance, what do folks think about making it a "fee" pooper? the "fee" could be mandatory or optional and go into the fund to maintane/pump them.
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Old 09-10-2008, 11:33 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Old 09-11-2008, 01:45 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I'll suggest a potential second issue -- by making the Little Sluice area 'more attractive' to campers, are we shooting ourselves in the foot? The Sluice is already attractive enough that the areas surrounding it are suffering. I won't say the area is over-camped, but I will suggest that certain users exercising poor hygiene, poor clean-up, poor manners, and poor low-impact camping practices are making heavier impact than they could be...
You bring up a valid point, but I doubt that more people will camp there just because there's a potty. What I am concerned about is that with having only one toilet at LS it will be likely get over used. Composting toilets (if that is the route we take) can only handle so much at a time. Having seen the new toilets at the springs and how bad they get after a season, it makes me wonder how a single potty could hold up to the LS crowds. And the ones in the Springs have some there to stir the s_ _ _ every few days.
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Old 09-11-2008, 02:17 PM   #46 (permalink)
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You bring up a valid point, but I doubt that more people will camp there just because there's a potty. What I am concerned about is that with having only one toilet at LS it will be likely get over used. Composting toilets (if that is the route we take) can only handle so much at a time. Having seen the new toilets at the springs and how bad they get after a season, it makes me wonder how a single potty could hold up to the LS crowds. And the ones in the Springs have some there to stir the s_ _ _ every few days.
Most composting toilets I have seen are doubles, quads, or even sextuplets.
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Old 09-12-2008, 04:45 PM   #47 (permalink)
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You guys just reminded me. I forgot to pull out the WAG bags I used from my last trip to Fordyce. They are still in my potty bucket

I agree having the outhouse at spider IS a good idea for the above mentioned. Most folks dont travel the trail as far as buck, and it ends up being about half way to the next potty hole at the springs.
True.. But Buck is a popular Camping site.. Spider for sure and if we could get two then the next at Buck..

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Old 09-14-2008, 11:00 PM   #48 (permalink)
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One thing you need to understand that this project of your will be the YotaUp bathroom at little Sluice if this is the only venue in which you propose this project. Not sure how much more clear I can represent this to you. I hope you are on the same page.

I will be in the Caretakers Cabin in Rubicon Springs on Saturday if you would like to talk to me direct about this.

Scott
Sorry I missed you this weekend Scott. I got a little boy that's 6 months old, and when he's ten I'd like to see him run the Rubicon. I'm going to do what I can to make sure I do my part to help make that happen.

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True.. But Buck is a popular Camping site.. Spider for sure and if we could get two then the next at Buck..

Aaron
You're totally right. The way I see it, a lot of budget is spent on plenty of restrooms in far, out of the way campgrounds that are seldomly used - yet here we have a high traffic place ignored for it's human functions.

The people out there are very responsible these days. Aside from our group of trucks, I saw a lot of people with portable poopers, spill kits, and garbage bags full of refuse. As I walked much of the trail, I noticed the absence of debris and cans and such. All captured on my film from this weekend.


I scoped out a few spots for a toilet at the west end of the hill at the sluice. I just got home from the trip so I'll post pics soon.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:38 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Regarding future maintance, what do folks think about making it a "fee" pooper? the "fee" could be mandatory or optional and go into the fund to maintane/pump them.
A metal box on the outside that reads: Please drop a dollar here to support our facility.

You'd be surprised by some folks and how much they're willing to throw at the cause.

Here's a few pictures of places at the bottom of sluice on the west side(as proposed in the recent minutes of the meetings from the Rubicon Oversight Committee(DOT El Dorado County website). Since this was an area already put on the books, I figured we'd start here. If other locations are better, let's have it out because this is the very first step to getting anything done.

Once we have a location we all think is good, the tests and studies can begin. Then we can put together a coherent proposal and get r done.

Bathroom location "A":

Out of the way from main flow of traffic, put low on the hillside near the pond for smell to be masked.

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Old 09-16-2008, 11:39 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Bathroom "B":

Further from the water if that is a concern. Closer to the trail, and still at the base of the hill.
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