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Old 12-19-2008, 12:27 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sluicebox View Post
Here’s what I think,
A. This entire situation is being caused by the orders of upper echelon the Forest Service.

B. More irrelevant stuff.

Just My rambling thoughts……….
See post 99 of the original (& locked) thread.
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Old 12-19-2008, 12:55 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Crusher maybe so! but he does not have to be a threating jerk hole to everyone, "a thank you very much have a safe day" would be welcome thats my beef with the guy, If you venture out and have disreguard for the law then you deserve to get busted but the disrespect from a public employee is not the way it should be, if anyone of us would be as disrespectful as officer Marcus on the trail we would not be welcome back by others.
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:08 PM   #103 (permalink)
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See post 99 of the original (& locked) thread.
Wow
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Old 12-19-2008, 01:28 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Crusher maybe so! but he does not have to be a threating jerk hole to everyone, "a thank you very much have a safe day" would be welcome thats my beef with the guy, If you venture out and have disreguard for the law then you deserve to get busted but the disrespect from a public employee is not the way it should be, if anyone of us would be as disrespectful as officer Marcus on the trail we would not be welcome back by others.
I'm not disagreeing with anyone here . . . All I'm saying is that this guy has his marching orders and those orders come from the top.

Fact . . . The USFS covets the trail and they're pissed off because they can't control it. The next best thing is for them to do is to make the "Rubicon Experience" a living nightmare in hopes that us users give up and go away.

Along comes Marcus, a little man with a chip on his shoulder, and now the forest managers have a tool to help them get their way. Marcus and the forest managers haven't figured out that respect is earned and not generated by fear.

I lived on the divide for a long time and I can you all some stories about overzealous cops in that neighborhood.
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Old 12-19-2008, 05:24 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I think that it will get better as tax payers show their concerns to the higher ups. Didn't this happened at Moab just shy of 10 years ago when officers went ape sh*t crazy with the mud flaps and what not at easter jeep safari. The next year was a total decline which brought lots of heat from the tax payers (due to the decline in revenue) and they have backed down to reasonable stuff ever since.

On the other hand, if I get a ticket for a cracked tail lens on my pickup that I trailered to the con, I don't think that I will be handing out any respect cookies for him protecting and serving the community.

As far as mud flaps - do you have to have them on while ON the con or just on the pavement? I can envision the trail being paved with mud flaps that were ripped off of rigs if they have to stay on.

I hope we can find a happy medium.
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Old 12-19-2008, 09:25 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Maybe we still have along way to go. After I read this it was a eye opener as to what is beinng seen by other people. This is what the public is seeing also.
Lets clean up our Act.


El Dorado County
Rubicon Oversight Committee

January 10, 2008

DRAFT MINUTES


LAW ENFORCEMENT UPDATES -- There were no new items to report since the last
meeting. El Dorado County did not issue any citations during two trips to the trail
Merlin reported that he was up at the trail all summer and a witnessed a lot of activity
that could have been cited, if he had had the authority to do so (doesn’t mean that
would be the best course of action). Merlin also provided a breakdown of violations
that could have been cited is as follows:
3929 Vehicles Contacted
6 Registration Violations
5 Equipment Violations
46 Operation Violations
1 Alcohol Violation (A lot more occurred but weren’t tallied)
52 Resource Damage
13 Trespass Violations
5 Other
129 Total
In the past two years things have improved significantly on the Rubicon Trail as far as
lawlessness. More families are coming out. Having uniforms on the trail does make a
difference. Education efforts are also working.
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Old 12-19-2008, 11:27 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Well.....hmmmm.....

I'm trying to look at this situation from a different perspective. I'm in control of me, I'm in control of my feelings and emotions. I would suspect, as many have stated, that the situation with this Ken fellow came about from his powers that be. I would also agree that this is an effort to, lets just say, make our weekend get aways a little tougher and maybe even a less pleasurable experience.

Just reading through the many replies posted here I would suggest that this approach is having the desired effect. I for one will not fall into this negative down-spiral trap. There are many people dong many, many good things on this and other trails in our country. Public citizens up holding camp fire laws, tread lightly education, the list goes on.

What can I control? I will put my front license plate back on, I will do all I can to make sure I am in full compliance of the law and I will continue to try to help others do the same. Not very hard really when you think about it.

Heres what I won't do. I won't allow anyone with an agenda to effect mine or my families enjoyment. If my efforts do not meet the agenda and I must be ticketed, I will take the ticket, smile and continue on, reminding myself of the good times that lay ahead.

I find it Ironic in a way that the very people Ken is conversing with here are the very ones that dedicate many weekends and hours trying to improve the situation surrounding this trail. Come on Ken helps us out here, work with us, stand by my shoulder when I inform someone about their illegal campfire. Maybe even hike the trail side by side with the many families and children that help clean the forest. Come on Ken we'd love to show you up close and personal our little Jewel we call the Rubicon Trail.

This is my free time, this is my happiness and this is our public land. You'll have to pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Wheel Safe, Wheel right, but most of important of all, Wheel on!!!
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:20 AM   #108 (permalink)
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I find it Ironic in a way that the very people Ken is conversing with here are the very ones that dedicate many weekends and hours trying to improve the situation surrounding this trail. Come on Ken helps us out here, work with us, stand by my shoulder when I inform someone about their illegal campfire. Maybe even hike the trail side by side with the many families and children that help clean the forest. Come on Ken we'd love to show you up close and personal our little Jewel we call the Rubicon Trail.
Curly, I said that several posts back...it's very true.

Ok, Ken, there's a room in the passenger seat of my "Barbie" jeep - you're welcome to ride shotgun and see what we're all about. Give it a shot, you might be impressed...ya just never know!

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Old 12-20-2008, 10:58 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Not Playing Nice

Well I have waited quit some time to make comments on this particular situation; you might say I let it simmer down to the meat and potatoes. I personally have always had issues with LE and the power trip some are sometimes on,that has been an ongoing thing for as long as I can remember. On the other hand I have met a few great LEO's over the years.

I have noticed a difference in behavior on the trail since the LE have been there, and it is a positive change.

I will be figuring out a way to attach my plate to my front bumper with screws instead of zaip ties to accommodate the current situation and as far as flares I am square. I have questions on whether I need to get flaps or not as I run a jeep and it did not come with them stock and I have not seen to many with them so I am wondering if I need them. Please educate me on whether or not I should have them on a TJ on 37’s with 7” flares.

As far as this person with a chip goes I am not going to cooperate. If I am pulled over I will jump out and lay flat on the ground with hands behind my head until told to do different. I will give my license, registration and insurance information which will be in my right hand behind my head for his use. I will not answer questions, I will not say anything because I presume that I am guilty until proved innocent and that my only right is silence. That is how it will be. There is no contraband inside my vehicle and there never has been any but I will not allow a search without a warrant. I am prepared to be difficult and unruly without saying a word.

I for one am not going to tolerate the behavior of this person with a badge and an attitude. I will not be treated as junk. I will not be belittled, and I will not give up my spirit or singularity. We in a round about way pay his wages and I feel if he doesn't give any respect that he will not get any respect from me. This has already gone way too far if people are being pulled over for a cracked lens and the officer is being confrontation trying to get a rise out of them. That is not what law enforcement is about. I will not be pushed around by anyone over piddley BS including the El Dorado National Forrest. I am putting my foot down now and I am willing to reap the consequences if that is the way they want to play it.

FWIW I obey the laws and other then the flaps which I am not sure on and the zip tied front plate I am legal I believe. I am so pissed off about all this I could spit nails. I have never had issues with the Sheriffs on the trail or the trail FSLEO folks but this guy and his take on spirit of the law has moved me to the point where I am very angry. I may never be pulled over by him but if I am this will be my action.

Last edited by Rockodile; 12-21-2008 at 12:18 PM. Reason: added more and cleaned up
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Old 12-21-2008, 03:57 PM   #110 (permalink)
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The most sound approach is usually along the middle ground somewhere.
Resist? No.
Need to be friends? No.

The pendulm need not swing from one extreme to another. We don't have to be friends with guy, we shouldn't disrespect the guy either. We should simply carry on in a professional manner. Do our thing, do it right, be legal, and stay focused on moving on.

Rockodile, I see nothing wrong with your "by the book" approach to a stop. I'm referring to the keeping silent part, however I would discourage you from exiting your vehicle unless an officer asks you to step out - this can cause problems in many ways.

When pulled over, stop the truck, turn it off. Keep hands on the steering wheel, don't go reaching for anything(registration, bazooka, etc). Allow the officer to approach and make contact. You may keep conversation to a minimum, that's your right. You may refuse a search, that's your right. Be assertive, but not aggressive.

Our goal is to have a working relationship based on mutual respect. We don't need to bend over backwards and we shouldn't expect them to bend over backwards.

See you on the trail, guys.

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Old 12-21-2008, 04:26 PM   #111 (permalink)
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When pulled over, stop the truck, turn it off. Keep hands on the steering wheel, don't go reaching for anything(registration, bazooka, etc). Allow the officer to approach and make contact. You may keep conversation to a minimum, that's your right. You may refuse a search, that's your right. Be assertive, but not aggressive.



Anyone else find it somewhat surreal to be reading something like this in a forum that is generally used to discuss great weekend getaways and volunteer group projects. Not pointing fingers just seems crazy to me

I guess given the current direction of this country nothing should really surprise me anymore. Hell I just read last week some Mom was trying to banish poor old Rudolph the red nosed reindeer.
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Old 12-21-2008, 09:43 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Yes I agree jumping out would be a bad idea and I agree with the hands on the steering wheel and every other aspect of your comments on being pulled over Yota Up. This is the tact I have used in the past when I have been pulled over. No sudden moves, no words and no argument.

And I also agree with you Curly, why are we having conversations about this kinda thing when the reason we go up to the Rubicon is to enjoy ourselves.

The question comes to mind for me is that this person or possibly his superiors have decided that it is ok for him to be confrontational and anal in his "Spirit of the Law". They have decided that this is going to be the way they do business up on the hill and as some have said they are probably hoping that this will be the reason some folks might quit using the trail or going to the woods.

I think this is absolutely a crime. I think this is a blatant misuse of the law by people who would rather close our resources than manage them. I have never been happy about the LE having to have a presence on the trail but it is the lesser of the two evils. Outlaws ruining our good time vs. LE lurking about to keep us safe from them.

And although I am younger than you Curly I also am wondering what the heck has happened to the country I once lived in vs. the circus we now have.

What are the answers, and when and where are we going to stand up and stop the out of control downward spiral we seem to be experiencing?
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Old 12-22-2008, 10:19 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Along comes Marcus, a little man with a chip on his shoulder, and now the forest managers have a tool to help them get their way.
Keep in mind that Officer Marcus does not answer to the forest managers except at the Washington/USDA level. Forest Management tracks and LE tracks in the USFS are intentionally not tied. The boss of the Eldorado (Forest Supervisor Vilalvazo) has no authority over Officer Marcus or any LEO...that authority comes to the Patrol Captain on the Eldorado through Region. Complicated, but bottom line is that if Officer Marcus' actions are being controlled by a forest manager, it is ocurring at the federal level.
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Old 12-22-2008, 04:55 PM   #114 (permalink)
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I lived on the divide for a long time and I can you all some stories about overzealous cops in that neighborhood.
I do live on the Divide and I can tell you the trail users are not the only ones that are being harassed by this Guy. All you need to do is ask the folks at Uncle Toms..
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Old 12-22-2008, 05:20 PM   #115 (permalink)
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I do live on the Divide and I can tell you the trail users are not the only ones that are being harassed by this Guy. All you need to do is ask the folks at Uncle Toms..
Yep. Met a guy who was written up for having 5 "forest rocks" in the bed of his truck- even though they were taken off of private property. He even got the the " I will take you to jail" treatment for good measure.

This officer is definately a tool.
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Old 12-22-2008, 09:50 PM   #116 (permalink)
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To expand on what resqme said . . .

Marcus does, in fact, work directly for a Special Agent in Charge or an Assistant SAIC who works for the LE&I Director who works for the USFS Chief. Even though the Regional Foresters and Forest Supervisors are not in Marcus' chain of command, they wield considerable clout and influence with the SAIC's.

Now, I'm sure that word of Marcus' extreme diligence in the performance of his duties has reached both the Forest Supervisor and the SAIC. Who knows, maybe even the Regional Forester has heard about this guy. In any event, given Marcus' place in the food chain, we can only conclude that he is doing what he does by direction of his SAIC and with the blessing of the Forest Supervisor.

Sadly, us forest users have absolutely zero recourse to what is going on. Forest Service law enforcement has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to interacting with the public. I hope we don't end up in another Jarbidge or Gila NF type situation. I especially hope we don't end up with another disappearing cop. Things can get harsh on the divide.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:03 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Editorials?

Has anyone given any thought to writting an editorial in the Democrat?

Just my .02 for the discussion.

It might be productive to inform more of our non wheeling neighbors about what is now the policy of USFS LEO's.

Anyway great and informative thread.

BigJim
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:15 AM   #118 (permalink)
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I honnestly believe the higher ups are not pushing this kind of behavior, bottom line is this one officer has a CHIP on his shoulder and has to be the big boy on the block.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:31 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Yes I agree jumping out would be a bad idea and I agree with the hands on the steering wheel and every other aspect of your comments on being pulled over Yota Up. This is the tact I have used in the past when I have been pulled over. No sudden moves, no words and no argument.

And I also agree with you Curly, why are we having conversations about this kinda thing when the reason we go up to the Rubicon is to enjoy ourselves.

The question comes to mind for me is that this person or possibly his superiors have decided that it is ok for him to be confrontational and anal in his "Spirit of the Law". They have decided that this is going to be the way they do business up on the hill and as some have said they are probably hoping that this will be the reason some folks might quit using the trail or going to the woods.

I think this is absolutely a crime. I think this is a blatant misuse of the law by people who would rather close our resources than manage them. I have never been happy about the LE having to have a presence on the trail but it is the lesser of the two evils. Outlaws ruining our good time vs. LE lurking about to keep us safe from them.

And although I am younger than you Curly I also am wondering what the heck has happened to the country I once lived in vs. the circus we now have.

What are the answers, and when and where are we going to stand up and stop the out of control downward spiral we seem to be experiencing?
No one I know is going to stop using the trail. I didn't invest thousands of dollars to make my rig capable and legal only to stop using the trail. If anything, the only ones who may stop using the trail are those folks that are constantly being ticketed for expensive infractions. As for most of us that are law-abiding and good to the trail - we don't plan to stop using it.

I worked for a principal many years ago (he's no longer there) who decided my department at work was way too strong and opinionated so he set out to polarize us. This guy was a goofball at best. He would do things and say things to try to get us to disband from one another. When we realized what was happening, we got tighter, louder, and rather than become polarized, we became one collective mass. After some time this principal gave up. He went after another relatively strong department in hopes to break them up. It didn't work. He didn't like the strength behind our two huge departments because it gave him less control. But we prevailed. And, the best part, he gave up completely and moved on (went to destroy another school elsewhere).

No one I know plans to stop using the trail.
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Old 12-23-2008, 09:56 AM   #120 (permalink)
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.......
Sadly, us forest users have absolutely zero recourse to what is going on. Forest Service law enforcement has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to interacting with the public. I hope we don't end up in another Jarbidge or Gila NF type situation. I especially hope we don't end up with another disappearing cop. Things can get harsh on the divide.


I feel that the best recourse we do have is fighting every ticket in court. Make Ken explain every ticket to the judge & prosecuting attorney (the judge was not impressed by the citation for the rocks).

When you just act like sheeple & roll over & pay it erodes accountablility & makes it far too easy to write bogus tickets.

Unfortunately most folks weigh the cost of the ticket to time lost at work, travel etc & just pay. Apathy at its finest.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:03 AM   #121 (permalink)
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I feel that the best recourse we do have is fighting every ticket in court. Make Ken explain every ticket to the judge & prosecuting attorney (the judge was not impressed by the citation for the rocks).

When you just act like sheeple & roll over & pay it erodes accountablility & makes it far too easy to write bogus tickets.

Unfortunately most folks weigh the cost of the ticket to time lost at work, travel etc & just pay. Apathy at its finest.

FYI -Officer Marcus gets overtime pay if he has to appear in court to explain himself. You may get out of a ticket now and then, but he gets OT pay regardless and that right there is part of the incentive to write tickets. I am sure Officer Marcus won't mind appearing in court ~ I sure wouldn't mind if I were in his shoes.

The only way this could fall back on Officer Marcus is that his superiors catch on and see he is getting heaps of OT pay (because of court appearances) while tickets are being excused. I seriously doubt they have him under such a microscope. That could take years for them to figure out that he's making money off his overzealous signature.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:10 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Well i stated late on this thread and have been scanning for the last hour.
Now this mud flap issue? R they expecting us to run them from the 2nd damn to the old gate keeper? Or the whole trail?
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:14 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockcrusher View Post
To expand on what resqme said . . .

Marcus does, in fact, work directly for a Special Agent in Charge or an Assistant SAIC who works for the LE&I Director who works for the USFS Chief. Even though the Regional Foresters and Forest Supervisors are not in Marcus' chain of command, they wield considerable clout and influence with the SAIC's.

Now, I'm sure that word of Marcus' extreme diligence in the performance of his duties has reached both the Forest Supervisor and the SAIC. Who knows, maybe even the Regional Forester has heard about this guy. In any event, given Marcus' place in the food chain, we can only conclude that he is doing what he does by direction of his SAIC and with the blessing of the Forest Supervisor.

Sadly, us forest users have absolutely zero recourse to what is going on. Forest Service law enforcement has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to interacting with the public. I hope we don't end up in another Jarbidge or Gila NF type situation. I especially hope we don't end up with another disappearing cop. Things can get harsh on the divide.
Awesome post.

No one is untouchable and all have a chain of command. Letters, calls, and the facts are what will get SAIC's paying attention. It is after all, the "Supervisors Forest", and he ultimately has control over what happens on his Forest.

Like my mom always said, "everything comes out in the wash, just don't forget to put it in the machine".

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Old 12-23-2008, 10:31 AM   #124 (permalink)
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It would make ken think twice before writing a ticket that previously did not hold up in court (like vehicle violations on the trailer).

Ken also does not like to be wrong. I have talked with a good number of folks who have been threatened to be hauled to jail when they ask questions. It would resonate with him when his citation does not hold up in court.

Further, the federal judge who oversees these matters will not take kindly to plugging up his court with mudflap/ cracked lenses and other nit picky tickets. He certianly was not amused the day I was there.
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Old 12-23-2008, 10:53 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elarsen View Post
n6boa-

It would make ken think twice before writing a ticket that previously did not hold up in court (like vehicle violations on the trailer).

Ken also does not like to be wrong. I have talked with a good number of folks who have been threatened to be hauled to jail when they ask questions. It would resonate with him when his citation does not hold up in court.

Further, the federal judge who oversees these matters will not take kindly to plugging up his court with mudflap/ cracked lenses and other nit picky tickets. He certianly was not amused the day I was there.
Agreed BUT it will take a long time for all of that to catch up. These people have bigger fish to fry than to care that Marcus is writing tickets and explaining them in court. And, most of the tickets he writes are legit.

Bebe said it best - the plan should be a united front whereby Marcus' superiors are constantly barraged by letters explaining facts and details centering around the behavior of their subordinate. Fighting tickets in court is a personal battle and with little positive outcome for the masses for months, or years, to come. If the ticket is not legit, then I would fight it, but the reality is, he is writing legit tickets, even if they are primarily petty infractions.
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