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Old 07-15-2009, 09:03 PM   #26 (permalink)
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If I picture it as Obama/Biden it REALLY keeps my hate aligned properly. You could try that too
So that's what Biden meant when he said it will make it easier to get to small businesses.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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So that's what Biden meant when he said it will make it easier to get to small businesses.
yep... he's a sierra club d-bag.


The whole water quality thing is BS. It creates bs jobs... fabricates BS reports to ensure BS jobs.... then dumps it all on us.

I could go into a ridiculous diatribe about all the conspiracies I "feel" are true. These days it's not about what is TRUE... it's about feelings, and emotions... "I feel the trail is harming the environment so it must be. I feel that global warming is making the polar bears sad so we have to stop big trucks and drive hybrids...."

Does any of this sound reasonable to you?

1 quart... NO let's say 1 Gallon of ancient dinosaur fluid was poured into the gullet of the formidable little sluice. What really happens? Let's say it happens every day for the rest of the summer. What really happens?

What is in pavement? Is it OIL? Under that pavement..... what is that stuff????? Oil barrier? Noooooooooooooooooooooo I know what it is! Rock and DIRT! When evil mother nature pisses upon the dwellers of her landscape what happens? Lack of maintenance leftist drives subaru up icehouse leaking a few drops of oil x 50 leftists.... does that oil have easier access to mainstream waterways than little sluice....????????????????

If you're not following my rant then I hate you.

It pisses me off when people can't grasp my concepts. Arrogant and CORRECT is how I chose to think.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:24 PM   #28 (permalink)
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... it's about feelings, and emotions...
This is what it's ALWAYS been about.
No facts, just feelings.
We SHOULD do this or we SHOULD do that.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:36 PM   #29 (permalink)
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yep... he's a sierra club d-bag.

I could go into a ridiculous diatribe about all the conspiracies I "feel" are true. These days it's not about what is TRUE... it's about feelings, and emotions...
As long as there is a trail up there there will now be Communist hippies up there trying to shut it down and thats a fact that everyone needs to understand. I would defenetly like to see all those people that have those feelings and emotions about the happenings on this trail actually take the time to do research(valid research not just look at one drop of oil on a rock and think the world about to end up there) and see what comes from that. I bet that it would suprise alot of people with the little impact that trail has to the environment up there. But we all know by now that since the obamunisum is in full effect emotions and feelings are the only thing people go off of these days. Pretty sad to think of what the future holds for our hobbie of wheeling, the trail and the country in general!
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:39 PM   #30 (permalink)
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So if I read correctly and by the assumption. Is it stated that "we" are going to come to a "compromise" solution? It's either.....
A) Nothing
B) The bypass
C) The sluice box blown up so everyone uses it

Have arguments been stated by Bebe or Randii? What arguments did you 2 give???

My opinion, just leave it alone!!! It's working fine the way it is. The area is cleaner than its ever been in long years past, spills are a hell of allot less frequent and we are all (most of us) using spill kit tampons. And if anyone slacks on using one, guaranteed allot of people spectating will certainly make sure there is one if driver of said vehicle doesn't have one.

I am with Silly on this, we are busting our ass's on keeping this trail clean and "county approved" and still not good enough.

I just hope we have the right spokes people speaking on our behalf
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:39 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Agreed about the water argument. Look at like this though.. if water quality was and issue, and I am speaking of erosion. Wouldn't SMUD or PG&E dependiing on the area be the first ones to balk about the filling up of their resevoirs and damage to hydroelectric equipment with silt. Or am I off base.

Secondly I am tired of hearing that buggies are taring up the trail. In the early 90's when that first rock fell or was help along, the evil rock buggies werent even around yet. THose were full bodied JEEPERS that did it. Or Bronco enthusiasts that did that. BUT EVIL BUGGIES DIDN"T EXIST THEN!

IN the effort of full disclosure:
I am not biased I drive a full bodied Jeep. That is just the history of it.


Agencies don't enforce the trail width guidlines there: Well how about goverment does its job. I honestly don't think that is too much to ask.

Little Sluice can attract spectators that don't care. I doubt this. But ok so does the super bowl. In the end it is cleaned up every sunday by private individuals. I know. I have done it.

In one entrance... I don't understant what is being said with that statement.
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:43 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I don't understand the rationalism behind this at all! This is like all the feel good parents that sign there kids up for T-ball and no one wins or loses and everyone gets a Trophy, bullshit! Well times they are a changing, and guess what so do rocks and trails, so must the rigs! The con USED to be a crown jewel, the holy grail, a 10! What all other trails were compared too, soon we will be able to compare it to the highway. The rubicon is ABOUT the large rocks, so lets blow them up Doesn't make sense! Oh well, blow it up, it will just move to a different section of the trail, like big sluice or walker or soup, then you can blow that up next. I am with Phil, i will drive up park and stay in the box, I am done with the nice touchy feely, i'm ok your ok crap. Blow that f-cker up and I will wheel the piss out of the rest of the trail at mock 5
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:04 PM   #33 (permalink)
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does anyone remember the trail before those rocks were blasted IN to little sluice? does anyone remember when there was only a handfull of jeepers on the trail on memorial day? and the springs was the place to go? there was no potty problem at spider then. iv'e seen the trail at its worse in the early '90s then all you guys steped up and clean up our acts, to blow it out now makes no sense. as long as the bypasses are allowed then the sluice is a great place to stop and watch the fun.
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:24 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Simple solution, brother.
Fight fire with fire.

What do the greenies do when they don't want a tree to get cut down?

Oh yeah, baby. I'm on board and hip to it.

It would be my pleasure to go out there and HUG those rocks tightly and if they want to blow them up, they'll have to blow ME up, too. Maybe I'll chain myself to the rocks.

How's that for a protest - using their very own methods against them?
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Wow, 34 posts so far about a rumor!

If it is a government agency that is supposed to be the dynomiters, they would have to do a full NEPA before doing any ground disturbing activity.

Ride on
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:34 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Wow, 34 posts so far about a rumor!

If it is a government agency that is supposed to be the dynomiters, they would have to do a full NEPA before doing any ground disturbing activity.

Ride on
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were trolling to see who says what... sometimes silence can be incriminating
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:35 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Wow, 34 posts so far about a rumor!

If it is a government agency that is supposed to be the dynomiters, they would have to do a full NEPA before doing any ground disturbing activity.

Ride on
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Serious question, did they do that for the gate keeper?
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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were trolling to see who says what... sometimes silence can be incriminating
Damn straight.

So, hypothetically - Jerry McGuire voice - who else is with me in going Jihad on that sh*t?
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:44 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Serious question, did they do that for the gate keeper?
Nope and do you think that under the new age of Obama that they would do it for Little Sluice? I dont think so. It would be carried out as secretly as possible and would be done under the "do now, deal with the backlash from the four wheeling comunite later" since it is such a big part and historic part of this sport!
Is it too late to get little sluice added to the national list of historic places? so no tree hugging hippie could touch it?
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:52 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Where is the RTF crew??...We know some of you have read this thread...what's the answer
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Old 07-15-2009, 10:55 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I hope by there silence it dosnt mean that there part of this!
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:06 PM   #42 (permalink)
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RIP gatekeeper

how it happened then and who had what to say

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...ght=gatekeeper

Last edited by urjb; 07-15-2009 at 11:07 PM. Reason: better link
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:10 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Little Sluice has long been a focus of complaints for the County, and some of those complaints were made in the Water Quality brouhaha... so this is definitely on the radar for the Regional Water Quality Control Board (RWQCB)and high on the list of issues requested for address by them.

At this point, the County is requesting opinions on what to do (and boy did they get an earful in the July ROC -- and they know that more will follow, and seem open to that). Any specific steps will be discussed in the Rubicon Oversight Committee before being actioned on the ground -- no immediate action is planned. That said, based on the opinions in the room at the ROC and the visibility of this issue to the RWQCB, "Leave It Alone" is not a viable option.

The most promising thing that I see is that after sorting through public comment/feedback, the County plans to discuss any actions in a focus group with three parties: El Dorado County Department of Transportation (DOT), Eldorado National Forest (ENF), and Rubicon Trail Foundation (RTF). Other groups and individuals are being asked to feedback on what adverse affects may be from any proposed action, but the focus group will shape what happens on the ground, and with RTF at the table, a wide range of user interests will be considered.

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Originally Posted by randii
ROC heard pretty much the same complaints as usual:
decades of insufficient trail maintenance (large rocks prevent travel for all but a small fraction of users other than by bypass)
backlog of maintenance can encourage vandalism (large rocks fell or were pulled into the trail, not removed or reduced in a timely manner, tacitly encouraging more rocks to be pulled in)
automotive fluids are sometimes spilled in Little Sluice
agencies don't enforce trail width guidelines (effectively allowing intensified usage in the area)
Little Sluice can attract spectators who seem less concerned about minimizing impact (poo, trash, etc.) than 'wheelers
concentrated usage/spectating can result in concentrated impacts
in-one-entrance-back-out-same may not be compatible with historic end-to-end trail over the Sierra

Other issues of concern that aren't quite complaints:
spills from vehicles (larger rocks with less in-fill may result in more over-turns)
where spills flow, downstream
maintaining Little Sluice without significant follow-up enforcement risks 'retribution' from outlaws
need on-the-ground signage to explain what is happening (as well as how and why)
diluting challenge at Little Sluice risks displacing usage to other large rocks on the trail
desire to use the least-destructive means possible for maintenance
individuals or organizations should not make changes without consulting others
public needs sufficient time or access to meaningfully comment
users may not be aware of the issues or the possible maintenance (media blitz was recommended)
unknown unanticipated consequences of maintenance
- - risk of damage to ancient trees (burns, fly-rock)
- - risk of fire
- - potential destabilization of rocks on the north wall of the sluice
unknown other unanticipated consequences of this decision

Agendas and ulterior motives are in motion already. Some folks want to close Little Sluice, some want to close bypasses, and others want to close the whole trail (even though IMHO keeping the historic bypasses has very little to do with the state of Little Sluice). Still others want to make this about vehicle equipment -- IMHO that's an attempt to divide and conquer OHV. New folks want to keep it the way they know it, and old folks want to keep it the way they knew it, and we're gonna have to find somewhere to live in between.

Randii



I'm not going to try and explain this any further because I believe that Randy has done a good job of letting you know what is going on.

Nothing will be solved with everyone on this thread getting worked up about what might happen sometime in the future.

What needs to happen now is for each and every one of you to contact Tom Celio (El Dorado County DOT) and let him know what you think should happen with the Little Sluice.


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Old 07-15-2009, 11:10 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Simple solution, brother.
Fight fire with fire.

What do the greenies do when they don't want a tree to get cut down?

Oh yeah, baby. I'm on board and hip to it.

It would be my pleasure to go out there and HUG those rocks tightly and if they want to blow them up, they'll have to blow ME up, too. Maybe I'll chain myself to the rocks.

How's that for a protest - using their very own methods against them?
Its not greenies this time. Its our own side that wants this. We might be the lunatic fringe to some, but others remember the way it was 40 or 50 years ago. Whats funny is I have ready stories about disdain for them. When they first took their jeeps to the backcountry 60+ years ago and ruined serenity, and started us down this path.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:13 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Man, this blew up quickly.

I gave a high-level overview in the other thread:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=802242

Some folks have been bitching about Little Sluice for years, and some of them in the Rubicon Oversight Committee. I have attended ROC regularly for about half a decade, and have continued to say that it ain't the tire size that's the problem, it is the responsibility of the operator. At this point they are probably as tired of hearing that as I am of hearing that Little Sluice is the biggest problem on the trail. :shrug: In the past, their complaints generally came hot and heavy for a few months, and then slide back off the radar... never fully gone, but under the surface.

In any case, the complaints are back here and now, for the reasons listed in that other thread, and with the heightened scrutiny of the Regional Water Quality Control Board (RWQCB), I don't expect it will just subside this time around, which is why I encouraged the County to get out and solicit public opinion, with a media blitz.

At this point, the County is requesting opinions on what to do... if you want to chain yourself to a boulder, I think you're just gonna get a sunburn (and maybe some tire tracks from other users). If you want to make a real difference, the ROC is open to your opinion, and Tom Celio, who runs it, has offered up his email -- he's all ears at: [email protected] ...I suggest making clear suggestions -- the anti's are already on record with their concerns.

If we can't come up with good suggestions as a hobby, one is likely to be provided for us... the Water Quality Board is looking for *ACTION* and maintaining the status quo is not an option -- deferring and ignoring maintenance like has been done for nearly two decades, letting Mother Nature do her thing, with the help of passing vehicles... well, I don't think the Water Quality Board will allow it, even if the other agencies WANTED to do it.

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Old 07-15-2009, 11:17 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I'm not RTF but I was at the grocery store, went to go deposit my paycheck, picked up my daughter from work, made the oogly beans for the girls trip, changed the water in the fish tank.

So I don't want to speak out of turn:

I understand how much the sluice means to y'all. In my opinion and in many others, it is where extreme rock crawling was born.

But you have to realize from Randii's post above, this has been a bone contention for a very long time. YEARS.

They closed Spider Lake because of mounds of poop everywhere. The Pirates go out there every year and pick up Poop! The point is there is still poop everywhere out there in and around Little Sluice.

Because SO many folks congregate there, the is a concentration of human waste in that specific area.

I will make my thoughts clear to the appropriate Focus Group members. You should do the same.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:18 PM   #47 (permalink)
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are we all gonna take one for the team, kinda throw 'em a bone?

IMO this is not open for discussion, I plan to get a sunburn with my kids at the box this weekend.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:23 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I will be there too. With my kid....and by kid I mean Jeep.
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Old 07-15-2009, 11:29 PM   #49 (permalink)
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If we can't come up with good suggestions as a hobby, one is likely to be provided for us... the Water Quality Board is looking for *ACTION* and maintaining the status quo is not an option

Randii
I passed by little sluice on Monday the 6th. There was virtually no trash or spilled oil to speak of. The greenies would have us believe that the trail is knee deep in poop and gear oil following a holiday weekend.

Rigs not prepared to drive straight through the boulders can easily navigate either of the bypasses, if you got that far you can certainly take the north route up and over!

Not sure why anything needs to be fixed there? Okay, maybe the north bypass is getting a little steep where the concrete has broken off at the bottom, nothing a half day and a few FOTR volunteers can't fix.

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Old 07-15-2009, 11:33 PM   #50 (permalink)
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As sexy as rumors and conspiracies can be, there's nothing secret about this. People have been carping about Little Sluice in open public meetings for years. This is about as secret as Phil's desire to stunt a smokey burn-out in Al Gore's front hallway.

I asked in ROC -- County DOT said nothing would happen before the next ROC, and that was before note was made to blasting during fire season, and before RTF stressed the critical importance of public involvement in any plan. I suggest focusing on information and public involvement immediately, and making affirmative suggestions on how to manage the issues/complaints Bebe posted above.

FWIW, the folks complaining loudest about the Little Sluice don't have tires at all -- big or small. Don't hang this on Jeep Jamboree, Jeepers Jamboree, or Jeep Jamboree, USA... they aren't the ones leading the complaint chorus in the ROC.

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IMHO the little sluice is the heart of the trail.
I don't see it, Kurt. LS is a well-known obstacle in the middle of an incredibly well-known trail... Rubicon will exist without Little Sluice, but would Little Sluice exist without Rubicon? It'd just be a pile of rocks in the middle of nowhere, with no way to get there other than shoe leather.

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Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
I only hope that the powers that be will work with the users base before doing something without their input.
DOT has asked for feedback, you've got your wish.

I only hope that the userswill work with the powers that be...

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