Let's talk about blowing up the box - Page 7 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Land Use and Trails > Rubicon Trail
Notices

Reply
 
Share LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2009, 03:48 PM   #151 (permalink)
Registered User
 
dane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member # 21948
Location: ELLICOTT CITY, MD
Posts: 6,505
Someone just let me know where my "4runner" needs to break down. It might take a while to fix and would be a complete pain to tow...

Dane
__________________
I WILL TRY BEING NICER IF YOU TRY BEING SMARTER.
dane is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2009, 12:15 PM   #152 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member # 22726
Location: Gilroy
Posts: 1,382
Yes it's one of the top ten rated trails for the USA. Hammers was in there also.
As for the tire issue, I run 33" tires to make the simpler trail a little harder. I enjoy seeing my little rig next to all those crazy buggies. I'm not saying that my rig will go anywhere they go, but it does pretty good. Those buggies with the super huge tires are amazing, but I'll stick with my street legal econo box.

I would be willing to pay to play at any place to go wheeling. Especially if that meant more places to wheel.
mannysouza is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 07-19-2009, 12:37 PM   #153 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2000
Member # 993
Location: Hangtown, CA
Posts: 1,810
Quote:
Originally Posted by mannysouza View Post
Yes it's one of the top ten rated trails for the USA. Hammers was in there also.
As for the tire issue, I run 33" tires to make the simpler trail a little harder. I enjoy seeing my little rig next to all those crazy buggies. I'm not saying that my rig will go anywhere they go, but it does pretty good. Those buggies with the super huge tires are amazing, but I'll stick with my street legal econo box.

I would be willing to pay to play at any place to go wheeling. Especially if that meant more places to wheel.
What
__________________
USMC 0351
Rock Zombie
bagman is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-19-2009, 03:26 PM   #154 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member # 128321
Posts: 520
The Gay Solution

I can't believe I am entering this fray with such a gay solution, but after reading this entire thread and others, and seeing the frustrations by some based on old ideas, let us consider one that I stole from the movie "Working Girl." Melanie Griffin used to be hot before, well, whiskers. Anyway in the movie their was a story about solving a problem related to a truck jammed under the bridge. After all the experts couldn't develop a removal plan, the story goes that a little girl happened along an said, "why don't you let the air out of the tires."

It got me wondering what is the real rub here, beside the enviromental wackos - just reality. It the shat stupid and other concentrated impacts at Little Sluice. Reasonable people must agree that there is a problem and it must be solved. The shat problem has never, and will never be resolved through education, society just isn't that responsible. I believe it must be resolved with tolerable regulations forcing compliance. If the RTF or FOTR don't get out in front of a real solution, an unpleasant one will be shoved down the throat of the OHV community.

Here is my air out of the tire proposal:

1) Set forth a trail management plan incorporating reasonable camping restrictions within XXX feet of the LS in order to give everyone time to evaluate a lighter camping user impact. This would be an excellent good faith effort to avoid the destruction of the box. You still get to use it, you just don't get to camp by it.

We must face the fact that three squares of chili a day, plus drinks may be detrimental to any public restroom or facility. Acknowledgement of facts are an integral part of a resolution. People must be forced to stop defecating where they are defecating, now! There is no more time for education on this issue!

2) Set forth a trail management plan that enhances the trail experience by further developing sections of the trail for more modified vehicle useage. Government enities have modified the trail to enhance the experience of less capable users. Why not make a proposal to enhance other sections for more modified use, (Old Sluice, Big Sluice, Soup, etc..). By doing so, the impacts associated with Little Sluice will be lessoned through more features and destination obstacles.

The wackos will be quite concerned by a sensible offensive approach to trail management as opposed to a defensive approach. Create a better trail system, designed to lesson concentrated impacts. Spread the user impact, enhance the trail, expand the enjoyment.

I do not believe user fees will solve the shat problem, it just will not. Additional fees may support other important projects, but fees are a very slippery slope. By far donations are always the best method for avoiding government backsliding.

Generally speaking, as for education, 20% of the OHV crowd is really really smart by now. It is that 80% that needs guidance, by regulation if necessary.

My 2 cents
cjcraig7 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-19-2009, 05:32 PM   #155 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 347
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Posts: 9,587
Straight Discussion (No Black Helos)

Quote:
Originally Posted by placerville View Post
You know, I was just crafting a reply to one of the messages posted here this evening. Funny thing - that message is now missing.
This is bull.
I'm not sure what you think you might have seen, but I just scrolled through this thread with a notepad, and the only message that has been moderator-removed in this thread is this one, posted at 1:26pm on 07/16/08. I can't speak to any individual changes in the threads that the authors may have made themselves, but no posts were removed by moderators other than for cursing. Ain't gonna happen.
Here's the only thing missing:
Quote:
you think sh*tting in the woods is a fighting offense?.........you ever fight a grizzly bear? you better be a big mother******.
This is an open forum for honest discussion and will stay such, within the no-swearing rules listed as a sticky.

Folks, there are no black helicopters for this issue, and tinfoil won't help -- there are well-documented complaints about Little Sluice, and have been for years. If any of you were unaware of this, then I am sorry, because this means that you have not been listening. On the web, in email, and by phone, as well as in person on the trail, in bars, at events, and at club meetings, I and other folks who attend the ROC have regularly posted updates for YEARS that state that Little Sluice was in the cross-hairs. The updates have generally stated that the Sluice wouldn't be touched that year, but was still viewed as a problem, with active complaints -- and none of the complaints have changed. There is no mystery -- folks are either NOT listening or in denial.

Here again is just a sampling of past threads that touch on blasting in LS:
2008 - https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=694000
2007 - https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=572973
2006 - https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=434675
2005 - https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418295
There are many more... I only pulled a handful of links, just examples from the last five years.

There is no surprise or mystery... there is no conspiracy. There *IS* however an opportunity for public comment, with emails to Tom Celio (County DOT) offering specific feedback and suggestions, with request to formalize a public feedback meeting beyond the Rubicon Oversight Committee (ROC). There are some new ideas detailed in this thread -- I hope you can be as good at sending email as you are at making posts...

Randii
randii is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 12:01 AM   #156 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,545
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
This is a classic....and an example of how we DON'T want this to go down.

I thought this was an open forum.....by Rubicrawler

Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
FOTR is keeping the heat on the County to understand this, and make them understand that any fix they try HAS to have support from a majority of 'wheelers lest it be undone or made worse. We've also hammered them on how silly it is to do anything without improving the statutes to prevent the type of vandalism that put 5-ton boulders into the Sluice in the first place AND providing enforcement to back it up.

ANY solution that is enacted simply has to involve the users, or it just hastens trail closure. FOTR knows this, but we've beaten our heads bloody against the agencies trying to make them understand. Some of us are stubborn enough to keep fighting, too, though right now we're spending resources defending against friendly fire. We earned some of that, though, by not keeping communications as clear as they could have been.

If you don't trust FOTR anymore, then you'll have to get to all the midweek meetings and field trips on your own. If you think there's enough good in FOTR to keep fighting, then get involved and help us fix whatever you think is broken. I've got a lotta respect for either of these approaches, but less for folks who sit behind a keyboard and tear down without building anything up. Even with the best of intentions, unless you do more than type here, the results are minimal.

Randii
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 01:20 AM   #157 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6867
Location: Pollock Pines, Ca
Posts: 2,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Here you go, it's from the ROC thread a couple of posts down:





Now you all know as much as I do.
last week you said it wasn't gonna go down
urjb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 08:03 AM   #158 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,545
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by urjb View Post
last week you said it wasn't gonna go down
Dates Eric...check the dates.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 08:35 AM   #159 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6867
Location: Pollock Pines, Ca
Posts: 2,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Dates Eric...check the dates.
Oh, I did check them last night. I found it very interesting.
the part of this that has me wound up is that it seems much of our land use leadership seems to be in on a little secret that this is going to happen. We've been assured that the "County" wont do anything till next month.

What about after that? ... just a matter of time, right. So when were you all gonna sound the alarm? I'm still concerned that the politics of all this has consumed all of you to the point that you believe that blasting the box will help and that you'd let it happen without giving us the chance to fight (literally) for it.

I woke up pissed again this morning and was brushing my teeth and a thought occurred to me. Think of this as a war. our land use leadership are the Generals. Some of us are the soldiers. of course there are various ranks mixed in but you get the idea. The soldiers are willing to many things including dying for the cause, no questions asked. just tell em what to do. The public does not need to know everything that said army does. Dont ever tell the soldiers that the war is lost or unwinable.

here's where it gets tricky. The real 'cause' is to keep our trails open, Right?
So, it could be said that letting the box get blasted is a key to keeping Rubicon open. Is this "battle" lost? will the land use donation $$ dry up if the public feels the battle is lost or we're loosing the war?

Eric
urjb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 08:50 AM   #160 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,545
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sluice Sally View Post
I'm on the phone with Bebe as I type....she says it's just a rumor! It's been floating around for weeks...it's not going to happen before the Jambo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
It's not gonna happen BEFORE the jambo? When is it gonna happen then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redheck View Post
and "WHO" is doing it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by urjb View Post
Maybe Bebe needs to chime in and tell us about what she knows.. like who said its "not" gonna happen. and how does that person have control over whomever has the powder?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Here you go, it's from the ROC thread a couple of posts down:
Now you all know as much as I do.
Eric, that was 7 days ago, and I hope your not accusing me of holding back. I just read the posts. There are no secrets here.

Last week I said it wasn't going to go down before the Jambo. And then Randii came on and stated there will be a public process, and a focus group that will hear our concerns.

What specifically were you expecting? Public processes are just that...Public. When dates were announced I'm sure someone in RTF would have posted them. In fact I think Scott did say there will be another ROC meeting on the 13th of August where Little Sluice will be discussed.

I support keeping the box the way it is, but ONLY if people step up and keep mitigating the issues....forever.

RTF and FOTR don't have the man/woman power to focus just on Little Sluice.

If it means that much to y'all, you're gonna have to organize and take care of it along with FOTR, RTF, ENF and DOT.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 09:05 AM   #161 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6867
Location: Pollock Pines, Ca
Posts: 2,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bebe View Post
Eric, that was 7 days ago, and I hope your not accusing me of holding back.
its not personal

I'm pointing the finger at all of you. Will we be given a date when this is going to happen? or will we just show up one day to find it like gatekeeper? Of course not, too much chance of a confrontation.

After the Gatekeeper incident I think the trust factor has been compromised. at least some of our leadership knew it was going to happen and agreed to it, but the rules got changed when it was time to make it happen.
urjb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 09:10 AM   #162 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
ddestruel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Member # 20999
Location: Lost in Nor Cal
Posts: 3,722
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjcraig7 View Post
.................

I do not believe user fees will solve the shat problem, it just will not. Additional fees may support other important projects, but fees are a very slippery slope. By far donations are always the best method for avoiding government backsliding.

................

Can't believe i am wading into this but after visiting Moab for the first time the first of May, a site specific use fee goes along ways to paying for LEO's, maintenance (marking the trail, providing signage and possibly putting money towards improving the obstacles on the trail via the above suggestion of providing multiple challenging areas/attractions), and general trail improvements like blue sheds. It’s a slippery slope yes, but after seeing their system in place something could be learned or taken from it for sure. Put a donation box at the entrances with a big sign asking for people for money. It was fairly impressive out there they had cable guards on some trails preventing people from continuing to widen the trail at obstacles, the trails were marked and there were trails for bike riders and other users all marked and accessible through a fee or donation box. Shocking how clean things were too. We keep trying to do this the way we've always done it yet its an uphill battle needing volunteers for projects which a small group of the same people show up every time, scratching around for money and supplies and then we are still dealing with the effects of groups of visitors who don't give a crap and have nothing invested in coming to the trail.


As to the box. a few of the large rocks probably should be fractured. i don't agree with blasting out the whole thing. also i think some drilling and anchoring of the remaining rocks in place should also be done. and a clear market bypass needs to be formulated.
__________________
I AM ONE OF MANY WHOM WASHINGTON HAS CHOSEN TO IGNORE OR FORGET
But i Vote

GO UM Montana Griz

"Jeep Lurker"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


KEEP REMEMBERING 9/11

Jeep with Rambler motor, SUA,
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and some
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

I miss my
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Support Frank the Tank

Last edited by ddestruel; 07-21-2009 at 04:45 PM.
ddestruel is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 09:32 AM   #163 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Member # 6867
Location: Pollock Pines, Ca
Posts: 2,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by dane View Post
Someone just let me know where my "4runner" needs to break down. It might take a while to fix and would be a complete pain to tow...

Dane
If we had a rig broken in the box everyday it'd make it a bitch wouldn't it? We need 365 people to commit to one day each.
urjb is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 10:55 AM   #164 (permalink)
Need an LS
 
Kurtuleas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member # 23188
Location: Discovery Bay, CA
Posts: 16,211
Blog Entries: 1
This thread took a turn towards the beginning finding solutions to fix the "problems" (I put problems in qoutes, becuase there are a few so called "problems" that I personally do not consider problems, but I still think we need to make an effort to solve them)

One solution posed by some people, is to break up the rocks in the Box with the hopes that the problems will go away becuase the box is an "attractive nuicence" (sp?)

I also want to to be known that some of the people with this idea are people that I respect, and there are a few that I consider close friends, even if I do not get to see them in person that often.

I personally would like this thread stay on the topic of proposing solutions OTHER than blowing up the box and changing the trail.

Bebe made a comment saying something like, well it's one thing to pound keys on a keyboard, and another to actually get up there and do it. I agree, and I will admit that I am NOT a rubicon regular: In the past four years I have only been on the trail maybe 2-3 times a season. If we come up with solutions, we need people to act on them.

I think many people believe that blowing the box up is a foregone conclusion no matter WHAT we do. That is a problem becuase it just leads to people throwing in the towel and not doing anything.
__________________
KEEP PUBLIC LANDS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC
Kurtuleas is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 11:23 AM   #165 (permalink)
Pissing Excellence
 
Sillyneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 517
Location: gardnerville, nv
Posts: 9,932
Send a message via ICQ to Sillyneck
Solution:

Go to the homes of "the evil three" and document their shortcomings, then tie them up w/ paperwork until rubicon is no longer an issue? I can go public w/ the addresses any time!

Last chance saloon libs.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

4457 Team DMR
Poly Performance
Ruffstuff
Barnes Welding Supply Sacramento
RADFLO
Shock tuning..... I only work with underdogs.
Sillyneck is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 11:40 AM   #166 (permalink)
Pirate4x4 Addict!
 
cruzila's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Member # 6650
Location: Garden Valley
Posts: 5,906
Quote:
Originally Posted by urjb View Post

I woke up pissed again this morning and was brushing my teeth and a thought occurred to me. Think of this as a war. our land use leadership are the Generals. Some of us are the soldiers. of course there are various ranks mixed in but you get the idea. The soldiers are willing to many things including dying for the cause, no questions asked. just tell em what to do. The public does not need to know everything that said army does. Dont ever tell the soldiers that the war is lost or unwinable.

Eric
Eric, in order to be a soldier you have to be there. I am having a hard time remembering when you attended a work party. Can you give some help here?
__________________
Scott Johnston
Rubicon Trail Foundation
Founding Director
Past President 2010-2012
Retired Director 2004-2013
ReElected RTF Director Dec 2017

cruzila is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 11:44 AM   #167 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 347
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Posts: 9,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by urjb View Post
...the part of this that has me wound up is that it seems much of our land use leadership seems to be in on a little secret that this is going to happen.
The alarm is sounding, Eric... I'm not sure how to say it more clearly than I did before: <they are requesting feedback, but> no immediate action is planned. That said, based on the opinions in the room at the ROC and the visibility of this issue to the RWQCB, "Leave It Alone" is not a viable option.
There's no secret cabal, no conspiracy -- it is and has been right there in the open, and the County is moving towards a decision with respect to Little Sluice. The complaints have BEEN in the open for years, and it was fairly obvious that it wouldn't be left alone forever (surprisingly, maintenance was deferred for 15 years!). Now we're in the end-game for County planning, and this is no secret – there’s no subtlety: Something is gonna happen, and the sooner we provide specific, substantive feedback and suggestions to the County, the better chance we have of steering the process. Anti-recreationists and small-tire folks have been doing just that for years, so we are playing catch-up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urjb View Post
I'm still concerned that the politics of all this has consumed all of you to the point that you believe that blasting the box will help and that you'd let it happen without giving us the chance to fight (literally) for it.
Dude, you have the chance to fight – don’t try to play it off on someone else: STEP UP. There are no engraved invitations to 'leadership' for OHV -- those of us who are 'leaders' have stepped up and offered strong opinions, and quite insistently NOT stepped back. I guess I'm a 'leader' these days since others have such strong expectations of me (not a light load!), but I hold significantly the same opinions as when I started attending meetings, and I try to make sure all users are represented, regardless of tire size or registration type, and regardless of ‘extreme’ or ‘historic’ intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by urjb View Post
Dont ever tell the soldiers that the war is lost or unwinable.
All is NOT lost... step up. Make comment. Participate personally!
If you throw in the towel, you can be certain that your efforts will have no affirmative impact. If you make meaningful comment or suggest possible solutions, you may just change the outcome – and I believe it is well worth the effort.

Stop trying to form the perfect protest and start trying to provide the perfect solution…

Randii
randii is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 11:57 AM   #168 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Member # 21815
Location: Pollock Pines, CA
Posts: 4,744
I have tried not to enter this fray for long enough, because it didn't seem productive. Now I've had enough. Eric, accusing RTF of chasing the donation dollars and forming our public policy around who has the money is insulting to me personally and demeaning to all of us. The RTF Board puts in countless hours and donates personal time and money every day to this cause. We do our best to pragmatically represent all users. Please don’t let your angst over this issue cloud your objectivity. Nuff’ said there.

First, I think Little Sluice will be modified, as I think the agency in charge of it believes that modifying LS will reduce the rollover incidents, petroleum spills, erosion that flows directly into the Little Rubicon River, disperse camping, and reduce the need for enforcement by dispersing the weekend crowd. At this point, because of a combination of historical lack of enforcement from the ENF (that is still occurring) and lack of responsibility by a small percentage of trail users, I believe THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CHANGE THAT!!! (edit: Maybe I'm wrong, but there is alot of history here...first rocks pulled off the wall/resource damage in 1992, discussion about destructive changes in LS in the ROC since 2004, all without much real opposition in public forums by the users makes it look that way. It is very late in the game to change the stripes of so many users) What can be done is for each and every user to engage the County DOT (Tom Celio) and give him your constructive opinion. Better yet, show up for the ROC meetings and engage the process.

If RTF was 100% "OK" with uncontrolled leveling of LS with large quantities of explosives, we would have said that. We're not. But there is a reality in the above paragraph...I believe something is going to be done. RTF takes the responsibility of making sure that what is done is controlled and effective manner very seriously. That's why there has been an RTF representative at every single ROC meeting since RTF was formed. That is a statement that cannot be made of ANY government agency or ANY other stakeholder.

4 years ago, after gatekeeper was blown, I realized that there was a lack of communication going on, and I started attending ROC meetings with the intention of "outing" the folks that weren't letting the public know what is going on. After a few months I realized that they told us everything they knew at the time except for the date of the blowup. They were new to the process and didn't know how GK was going to go, and they learned from the mistakes that were made (by the way, for those of you that don't know, the GK debacle was a USFS show that was allowed to occur in an uncontrolled manner by a trusting and ill-equipped County Parks Department...one of the reasons we are glad to see DOT at the helm). The fact that this thread exists and that RTF has taken a specific position is evidence of that.

RTF has said we will support only limited and controlled reduction of boulder size in LS, and only after a public process. We've made that clear in public statements, to our users, and to the County. We said that based on the knowledge that something is going to happen, and our belief that supporting a controlled process will prevent the uncontrolled flattening that occurred in GK.

We take representing ALL users very seriously. The reality is that in this situation the reduction of boulder size (only those placed there illegally) by one third is the best outcome we can expect. A bad outcome on this one would be a GK style workover or complete closure.

Anybody who wants to can do anything they want, from ranting accusations on a public forum, to attending meetings, to chaining themselves to rocks. In the end, LS boulders will be reduced in size by the County agency that believes that is the best way to manage the trail. RTF will be there to make sure that the reduction is controlled. And yes, we will support their actions if they are appropriate.

Oh, and by the way, Jambo starts on Thursday. Better get the LS ninja destruction commandos mobilized and the black helos flying if the great LS pre-jambo destruction conspiracy is going to come true.
__________________
WWDD?

N6YBH
-

Thanks to
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
for sponsoring the 2017 Cantina For The Con!

"If you need a tool and don't buy it, you will ultimately find that you have paid for it but don't have it". -Henry Ford

Last edited by resqme; 07-21-2009 at 07:20 PM.
resqme is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 12:00 PM   #169 (permalink)
flamethrower
 
Bebe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Member # 75270
Location: Dayton, NV
Posts: 12,545
Send a message via Yahoo to Bebe
Changed my mind, I'll say it anyway: (flame suit ready)

Quote:
Originally Posted by resqme View Post
First, Little Sluice will be modified, as the agency in charge of it believes that modifying LS will reduce the rollover incidents, petroleum spills, erosion that flows directly into the Little Rubicon River, disburse camping, and reduce the need for enforcement by disbursing the weekend crowd. At this point, because of a combination of historical lack of enforcement from the ENF (that is still occurring) and lack of responsibility by a small percentage of trail users, THERE IS NOTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CHANGE THAT!!! What can be done is for each and every user to engage the County DOT (Tom Celio) and give him your constructive opinion.

RTF has said we will support only limited and controlled reduction of boulder size in LS, and only after a public process. We've made that clear in public statements, to our users, and to the County.

In the end, LS boulders will be reduced in size by the County agency that believes that is the best way to manage the trail. And yes, we will support their actions if they are appropriate.

Well, we need to know if there is going to be a Public Process as Randii described (a focus group made up of DOT, RTF and ENF) or if this is a done deal as John states above.

It's either one or the other.

If it is a done deal, and the users were not allowed or present for the discussion, I'm afraid there will be some serious consequences in the support for the trail.

I just want everyone to be happy, empowered to participate in a reasonable discussion, and that all possibilities were discussed, before the decision is or was made.
__________________
What's all the Hub-bub about Blue Stars???
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Haulin the Groceries AND Haulin the MAIL

Last edited by Bebe; 07-21-2009 at 04:55 PM.
Bebe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 03:07 PM   #170 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member # 126704
Posts: 363
Ah gee, I'm an outsider and I'm opening my big mouth. This thread is like a contagious virus, guess it is because someone is talking about blowing something up and it has been my long standing belief that there is no problem in life that can't be fixed by the proper application of high explosives. I do want to emphasize "proper application" and the rocks in Little Sluice is not proper in my book.

The "Little Sluice" debate has existed for years. The "Allies" have a choice, they can either put aside their long running differences and fight the Nazis - or bite, devour, and destroy themselves by letting old wounds sidetrack them from the enemy at hand. The old differences will still be there to argue and try to resolve after the war - it is insanity to force this issue now. I personally think it is best to let the Water Board appeal play out further before allowing anything to happen.

There seems to be a misconception that there is an agency in charge of Little Sluice. Now perhaps the agency believes that, and perhaps some here believe that, but there is no one with "title" to the trail in my book. El Dorado's attorney Ed Knapp explained the concept very well in his letters to the Water Board. It is a public right of way until El Dorado County either by intentional vote makes it a county road (or some judge declared the County screwed up by demonstrating ownership by blowing rocks up and other acts).

It is my observation that the problems associated with Little Sluice are very solvable by other means. Are the "Allies" so pathetic we can't improve the bypass and install crappers? Of course not - but I know "we" are not the big problem. The Forest Service does not wish to solve the problem - they wish to the problem to exist in order to force things more to their Orwellian philosophies. So this is a test of wills - a Pork Chop Hill.

As soon as some "agency" (I'm not saying El Dorado) decides to charge fees or substantially change the trail - I may focus time. money, and energy to help litigate said party all the way to the Supremes if necessary to either cement RS 2477 for a new generation or make it as worthless as the enviros would like it to be. I would much rather spend resources helping fix the Rubicon Trail and deserved praise to the land use leaders instead of joining the hand grenade rollers and ulcer givers.

The Rubicon Trail is a symbol of human freedom and individualism - like all such symbols it comes under attack by those that view control as safety and freedom as dangerous. Our symbols of freedom are dwindling and with it freedom itself - most of you know this as you "feel the walls closing in" - places like the Rubicon enable some of us to better cope with the increasing complex and fast paced world. The Rubicon Trail users are a society and family - where individual expression has opportunity to become part of a collective - something larger than ourselves. Some people say they would die for the trail - I know that emotion but let it be in uniform as an army "in the fight" and not some nut on a futile "lone ranger" mission. I am an outsider here, my place for these things has not been the Rubicon. I will fight with the army here the best I can because this is the front line, the command bunker is under attack and the war could be lost.

I see the Rubicon RS 2477 status as the case of dynamite weeping nitro that is being played around with here - and the anti legal teams must be falling out of their chair laughing at this thread hoping the "agency" is stupid enough to fall into the bear trap.

RS 2477 is like holding the concept of infinity in our head or trying to nail jello to the wall. I can see why any agency person would have fits grappling with it. The Water Board wants definitions of the trail and trail use - they can't control what they can't clearly define. Trying to create the illusion of control in our lives leads to all sorts of ills.

Will someone "in the know" pleeeeezzzzzzzeeee give El Dorado attorney Ed Knapp a heads up on whatever the plan turns out to be beforehand so he doesn't have to wear a paper bag over his head when appearing for El Dorado down the road?

If Little Sluice "blows up" in the meantime - then I fear for the trail itself. I'll pitch a fit then wait to see what happens while at the same time try to find a group that is preparing to head for court (in case others don't just change it back the next day as I hope they do).
chasinternet is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 03:35 PM   #171 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 347
Location: Fair Oaks, CA
Posts: 9,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinternet View Post
There seems to be a misconception that there is an agency in charge of Little Sluice.
El Dorado County asserted the trail as a public right-of-way and exercised the option to patrol and maintain the sections of this public road that crosses El Dorado County. While this may not be 'title,' clear precedent IMHO exists for the County to maintain this public right-of-way. As well, Knapp explained that the County did not have the responsibility, but maintained that they have the choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinternet View Post
It is my observation that the problems associated with Little Sluice are very solvable by other means.
Spill, Charlie -- what're your ideas?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinternet View Post
I would much rather spend resources helping fix the Rubicon Trail and deserved praise to the land use leaders instead of joining the hand grenade rollers and ulcer givers.
I fully appreciate this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinternet View Post
Will someone "in the know" pleeeeezzzzzzzeeee give El Dorado attorney Ed Knapp a heads up...
No worries, he's following this discussion more than a bit.

Randii (loved the metaphor of RS2477 nailing jello to the wall! )
randii is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 04:34 PM   #172 (permalink)
Need an LS
 
Kurtuleas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member # 23188
Location: Discovery Bay, CA
Posts: 16,211
Blog Entries: 1
I am worried that people I consider VERY good friends of mine are creating rifts between one another. (In turn, making the anti's very happy) I think we all need to sit down, relax around a campfire for awhile and have a beer. (make that BEERS)

What REALLY shows in this thread, is how important the Rubicon is to all of us. And that really brings a smile to my face.

I know for a fact that the Con is VERY important to Eric, his entire family and his circle of friends. While this may just be a hobby for most, it's a LIFESTYLE for others. Well, for many of us here in this thread. And you know Eric, to his credit, he is going to be VERY outspoken when it comes to what very important to him. Please do not fault him for that.

Scott, I can say without hesitation that Eric is a steward of the trail. Yes, he has not been on an FOTR clean-up for awhile, (He has his reasons) but I know of many an occasion where he has worked on the trail. Look at his other post about responsible use, this past year he attended the POR Poop clean-up, That one memorial day when it poured rain, Eric and his group pulled out a MASSIVE amount of garbage from a campsite that was left a mess etc. etc.

He has also attended every single FOE workparty since our inception, (one which benefited the Rubicon. Can I talk about that yet? ) and he gained his sawyer's cert to help out on future projects.

I have only attended ONE FOTR workparty and I am realitively new at this game. Does that give me less voice?

Either way, I think we all need a giant

Like it or not, You guys have a sort of "family" up there on the hill, and like any other family, you are gonna have your tiffs. Please remember that we all have a common love for the trail and a sort of communty. (I better shut the hell up before I get too mushy! LOL!)

I am working on something that will (hopefully) make all concerned (and then some!) happy.
__________________
KEEP PUBLIC LANDS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

Last edited by Kurtuleas; 07-21-2009 at 04:41 PM.
Kurtuleas is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 04:35 PM   #173 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Member # 126704
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
Spill, Charlie -- what're your ideas?
Hi Randii,

You will always be able to tell if I am sincerely concerned if I'm not applauding the use of explosives!

Glad to hear El Dorado legal is monitorng - of course it becomes their call (since it is their neck) on where the lines are for "maintain" vs "own". I'll agree to disagree on that issue. I can't imagine what it must feel like to have this can of worms in the work in-box.

So after years of discussion you already have had - still want to brainstorm solutions on the board?

OK, I just did one, improve the bypass and add some version of crappers. Before you point out that is not going to work because it does not recognize larger aspects of the problem - we need to define the problem. I bet can't even get consensus on what the problem is at an ROC meeting but I'm a lot easier to deal with.

So let's start there - what is the problem that has to be resolved now? Can't get advice from the lurkers unless we define concisely the main issue, and believe it or not I'm actually not so arrogant to think I can solve it, but never know - there may be a lurker out there with a new idea or at least this might help explain why the bitter pill must be swallowed.
chasinternet is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 04:51 PM   #174 (permalink)
Need an LS
 
Kurtuleas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Member # 23188
Location: Discovery Bay, CA
Posts: 16,211
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by chasinternet View Post
So let's start there - what is the problem that has to be resolved now? .
John laid it out here:


Quote:
Originally Posted by resqme View Post

TOO MANY PEOPLE CARELESSLY CAMP AND CONGREGATE AT LITTLE SLUICE AND IT IS CAUSING A NEGATIVE IMPACT.


1. Every individual in the LS crowd will have to start using wag bags and packing them out. The woods in that area simply cannot sustain that kind of impact, properly buried or not. (Edit: peer pressure, right?)

2. Camping at Winter Camp and on the slabs at LS will have to reduce itself and campers will have to disperse over the rest of the trail. Look at aerial shots of the area...it is simply over-camped.

3. People will have to be uber conscious of spills and carry AND USE petroleum spill kits, including hauling out any contaminated soil in the bag provided.
Solutions proposed so far:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
You guys have the "Trail Patrol" How about a POOP PATROL?

We get a brown rig loaded with wag-bags and a massive sign on the back of it with some catchy "Dale-devised" phrase and anti-poop logo. Kinda like one of those moving billboards you see on trucks.

We park that puppy at the box on big weekends, pass out wag bags and (get this) COLLECT people's poop! For each turd turned in, that person gets a little sticker to post on thier rig, kinda like when a fighter pilot shoots down and enemy plane and paints it on.

Turn in so many turds, and you get a plaque!

Maybe some people have issues about packing thier poop out, no excuses here, the "Turd Burgler" rig will do it for you!

Maybe the turd burglar could also set up a temporary, camping porta-potty that people could use on site, then take that out at the end of the day!

We could also have the "turd burglar" pass out samples of bio-degradable ATF and Diff Fluid and ask people to run those fluids.

It's a dirty job, but someone has got to do it.



What about club sponsored "quick clean-ups" of the little sluice area? I know Kevin has organised white flower pick-ups in the past (A very sucessful one late last year) What if we do more of those?

I actually tried to get one going for this past weekend. Get a gaggle of people after every big weekend to dash up there and do a quick clean-up of the box. Waht do you use to clean your box? DOUCHE!

We can call them DOUCHE DASHES!

I am not tring to make light of the situation here, just trying to re-package them and think out of the box in order to get more people on board.

I talked with Kurtis at CalROCS this year about the Springs. What if we wrote an article for Pirate about the Springs and what it has to offer in order to market it to the user base? (That was his idea, not mine)

May not do a lot, but I think it's worth a try in order to get people to spread out more on the Rubicon. Somehow highlight other areas of the Con in the hopes that a few people may say "Hey! Let's check that out!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post


Ordered mine. (amazon.com) Do I still need to use a spill kit now?

(Yeah, like my rig will ever see the Con anytime soon)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post


1. Turd Burglar "trail patrol"

2. Push for bio-degradable fluids on the trail. Oil, ATF, gear oil...all available.

3. Inform/educate users on other exciting areas of the Con in an effort to get them spread them out and not hang in one location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
I still think a "reward" (like stickers) for the users turning in turds to a "collection vehicle" at the box would be cool.

Poop collection boxes for wag-bags along the trail that are removed weekly?

Oh, I SO got it:

We get an old school Postal Jeep that has been converted into an ICE CREAM TRUCK! Fab it up so it's a wheel-able, Poop patrol, "Turd Burglar"


For $32,000 we can get 13 of them and one parts jeep:

http://www.icecreamtrucks.com/icecreamjeeps.shtml

Want an Ice Cream? Pay in Poop, AND you get a sticker.


Well, it sounded good when I first thought of it....

Seriously though, I think with some brain-storming and finding "out of the box" way to educate the user base we can solve this problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
Dispursed camping rewards program.

On certain weekends throughout the season, RTF picks one group of vehicles (or one vehicle) that is camped on the Con at random, and REWARDS them in some way.

Anyone camped at little sluice, or off trail with a rig is automatically out of the give-away.

Maybe bring in some businesses to make the reward REALLY worthwhile! A set of brand new tires, Atlas transfercase etc....

It's like a lotto, but you can't camp anywhere near the box to win.

It may also force people to find new and possibly BETTER places to camp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by UGET IT View Post
I have thought for a long time that the entrance to the Lil Sluice needs a sign just like the Old One that the POR and United??? did at Loon Lake. A nicly placed sign with Area Specific Instuctions goes along way in the Public Eye.

Something like this..........I know there are allot of folks that can make this happen. I bet it would be well received. I am not for blowing up that area or other at all. I think that only shifts the problem or perception of a problem elsewhere on the trail.

Scott, I'll be happy to discuss this with you this weekend over a fiune beverage that you have bought me!

Welcome to Lil Sluice!

This is the toughest part of the Rubicon Trail. Please Look at the simple points below.

*This area is under close monitoring, Please Do Your Part In Keeping This Area Open!

* Body Damage is to be expected! Please pick up any parts, tools, trash that fall from your Vehicle.
* Use Wag Bags for HUMAN WASTE. DO NOT LEAVE HUMAN FECIES OR TOILET PAPER IN THIS AREA or ON THE TRAIL!
* Clean up any fluid spills from vehicles with spill kits and pack it out of the trail.
* Please pick up any trash, cans, cigerette butts and Human Waste from the area.

For ways any Club or Individual can assist please contact..................

Sincerly,

The Rubicon Trail Foundation.............FOTR............FOE........ Etc.
FYI: Sign project is in the works

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
Rubicon Scavenger hunt!

On Sundays at the kiosk users turn in several things in order to win!

The hunt could include material objects OR the person has to show cell phone pics of a place.

EX:

By Sunday at 4pm you must find and turn in:

1. A cigarette butt found on the trail.

2. A Full Wag bag!

3. A cell phone picture of the Springs

4. A cell phone pic of the Dam at Buck

5. A soda/beer can found on the ground

etc. etc...


again, just throwing up ideas to see if something sticks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post

Import Dung Beetles from Africa
__________________
KEEP PUBLIC LANDS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC

Last edited by Kurtuleas; 07-21-2009 at 04:52 PM.
Kurtuleas is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-21-2009, 04:56 PM   #175 (permalink)
Registered User
 
SeaBass44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 40
Location: 80 miles n-sac in Oroville, CA
Posts: 34,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by resqme View Post
Originally

TOO MANY PEOPLE CARELESSLY CAMP AND CONGREGATE AT LITTLE SLUICE AND IT IS CAUSING A NEGATIVE IMPACT.
well that happens when they blow up gatekeeper in 2005 so they can relieve congestion on the trail, now they can get more people through the trail faster........."back fire"
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[COLOR=Red]--
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

:evil: # 530.532.4529:evil:[/COLOR]
TTC 2010 1989 BRONCO
:evil:-[COLOR="Red"]Awesome web development for your business[/COLOR].
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SeaBass44 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.