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Old 07-22-2009, 02:45 AM   #201 (permalink)
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FOTR work party? Never have and dont plan to. I might consider it if the "Donate" buttons all over the FOTR website sent the $$ to RTF.
Seriously, we need to sit down and talk about this. I get where you are coming from (I think)...I'd like to talk to you about where I am coming from, in person.


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My last work party was the poo cleanup.. i provided the dumpsters and hauled out the poo. Last weekend I was at Little Sluice picking up trash and TP. I dont remember seeing you at any FOE work parties either ..your point is?
Good point, we all tend to focus in the world we live in...not showing up for *my* show doesn't mean you weren't there for *any* show.


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OK, so RTF will know the date. I'm looking forward to the announcement.
Didn't mean it that way...when I said "RTF will be there", I didn't mean we would be there on the date date supervising the work, I meant we would be out in the front of the discussion between now and then to try to keep what is done to a minimum.

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most of you know me personally, and know where to find me.
Yup, come by the house (or for that matter Spider) and say hi, I'll buy the beer.

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Like any management position, you get credit when it goes right, but also when it goes wrong. The fact that FOTR (I dont think there was an RTF at the time) was in on the gatekeeper incident is gonna take some time for us all to forget, they were the managers in force at the time AFAIK. and I think and hope most of our current managers were not the ones party to said gatekeeper incident.
Let's set the record straight...RTF had just been formed, and many of the principals in RTF at that time were also principals in FOTR. RTF hadn't defined it's mission very well, and were rookies at the governemnt meeting game.

That being said, a few of those same people are no longer the rookies they once were and no longer make those rookie mistakes. If you talk to them, you'll hear them say that the biggest mistake at Gatekeeper was not communicating well with the users about what was going to be done. Having learned from GK, in this case we are doing our best to communicate. We have come on this board and talked openly about what might happen, way before any decisions have been made.

You are armed with the same information we have, at this point.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:01 AM   #202 (permalink)
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The permit issue I am hoping someone can explain if the FS has authority to demand a permit if the toilet is within the 50 foot "right of way" or is it also not the problem but another position about a wish?
As you know, I am NOT a lawyer or even close to it, but here goes. RS2477 is specific to roads and defines the right to travel, not the right to poo. The statute says that the right to travel is irrevocable, even though the underlying soil is USFS land. RS2477 doesn't say anyhing about toilets or the right to poo on those same USFS lands.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:03 AM   #203 (permalink)
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But I'm tired of us loosing freedoms.. freedoms that I want my children to have, and their children. If my great grandson wants to break his 40,000 dollar rig in the box, that should be his choice.
I lost my freedom to drive the Rubicon trail in its entirety when some criminals illegally blocked the trail with some boulders from the cliff face.






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Old 07-22-2009, 09:07 AM   #204 (permalink)
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I think I am starting to get more of a "Sillyneck" attitude on the whole poop subject. Really, what the heck is the problem with the FS or whomever allowing a toilet or two around the box, Buck, or where ever for that matter. Poopers at the Springs. Same dirt, basic same location, and manages to get serviced. The only diff is the land is owned by someone else. I really cant believe there is not a solution. What I believe is, no matter what is offered up as solutions is going to be shot down. They simply don't want to see wheelers on the trail having a good time. Unless someones pockets are filled, we will never get what we are asking for.

I live on a mountain road leading to some beautiful public lands in the Plumas National Forest. Spring rolls around and before you know it, ranchers are hauling their cattle up the mountain to graze in the meadows, along water ways and the sort. Hundreds and hundreds of cattle, pooping in the meadows, smashing the hell out of a lot of areas, etc. How many pounds of poop do you think a cow can put down in a day? About 68lbs a day. Times that by about 100 (conservative est) and that is 6,800 lbs of poop per season per cow. Times that by a thousand cows and you have a whopping 6,800,000 lbs of crap in the meadows and along streams. I don't see them handing out Wag Bags to the cattle to haul their poop out! They also walk the same trails along hillsides causing deep trails, beat down to nothing, allowing the spring snow melt to erode away and silt up the streams. Where does all that poop end up? In my well? Funny, my well has the cleanest water you could imagine. You cant even find hardly a trace of anything in it.

Now go check out the number for E-coli at the beaches around Folsom Lake that is deposited by people, esp babies with diapers. You would puke knowing what the levels are.

As far as the Con, how many times have you been up there and not even had to go pooooo? My wife can never poooooo when we camp as well as me a lot of times too. How could any agency actually get a figure on paper that means diddly squat in regards to the actual pounds of poop in that area? They can't! Not possible. There is a sustainable bypass around the sluice, over rock. Wow, that sounds like an enviromental hazard. So what if it is not the "actual" trail for two hundred yards.

When the SIDE of Slide Mountain slipped into Washoe Valley, how did that not create an enviromental catastrophe beyond comprehension? A few rocks in the middle of a 4WD trail? Wow, big deal.

I think I am fed up.
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Old 07-22-2009, 09:48 AM   #205 (permalink)
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I am with you Keith, I am fed up as well.

That means I am out of this conversation for a while. The rest of you can go ahead, but for the short term, i have better things to do in my life than e-argue over this here.

I hope to be at the table when this thing is decided. To date I have had one personal message. I have seen and read much here, talked to folks about this very thing for the last 5 years and attended near every agency tour at the little Sluice.

I do feel I have enough information to formulate thoughts on the issues. I would like more.

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Old 07-22-2009, 09:55 AM   #206 (permalink)
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I am with you Keith, I am fed up as well.

That means I am out of this conversation for a while. The rest of you can go ahead, but for the short term, i have better things to do in my life than e-argue over this here.

I hope to be at the table when this thing is decided. To date I have had one personal message. I have seen and read much here, talked to folks about this very thing for the last 5 years and attended near every agency tour at the little Sluice.

I do feel I have enough information to formulate thoughts on the issues. I would like more.

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Old 07-22-2009, 09:57 AM   #207 (permalink)
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Just for clarification, are the bypasses around the box legal?
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:00 AM   #208 (permalink)
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I would have to imagine they are cuz we spent a whole day a few years back anchoring re bar, filling holes, and pouring concrete to maintain it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:12 AM   #209 (permalink)
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Ok, if that is the case, then I don't understand the reason to blow up the box.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:28 AM   #210 (permalink)
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Cuz it has been deemed by the "powers" that it is a gathering spot, the poop is affecting water quality(yeah right, let's see some actual real numbers), and we have too much fun.
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:28 AM   #211 (permalink)
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I lost my freedom to drive the Rubicon trail in its entirety when some criminals illegally blocked the trail with some boulders from the cliff face.


I'm stepping out of this conversation as well, but will respond to this because you quoted me.

I feel better knowing that at least one member of RTF would appear be in favor of the blasting.

if those rocks were placed there illegally, that is a criminal offense and there should be justice.. how does dynamite or ammonium nitrate undo the crime? or bring the criminals to justice? I'm no lawyer, but I'd bet there were laws broken when the road was "built" in the first place.

I've heard for years that those rocks were helped into the hole by humans...so somebody must know something, who? there might be all sorts of finger pointing and hearsay, but how do we know that it was caused by "criminals", and not plain ole gravity?
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:44 PM   #212 (permalink)
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If the DOT is asking for public input, maybe we need to find out what the goals of El Dorado Co. DOT are, and try to align our input/ideas to mesh with their goals if possible….


Below are the official “Caltrans Strategic Goal of 2006”. The CA. State DOT..


SAFETY – Provide the safest transportation system in the nation for users and workers

MOBILITY- Optimize transportation systems throughout, and provide dependable travel times.

FLEXIBILITY – Provide mobility choices through strategic partnerships.

STEWARDSHIP – Preserve and enhance Californias resources and investments

“Caltrans improves mobility across California”



with that said GK was one of my favorite spots on the trail..
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:14 PM   #213 (permalink)
 
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John -

I also believe RS 2477 does not grant property interests but rather a right of way. So what if the loo is mobile? For example, there could be a big loop of trailer loos moving in stages from Loon Lake to Spider Lake and back again.

So the FS insists putting poo in toilets needs a permit? ? Yes it is expensive, what is cost estimate and is the County willing to ask for a permit? That may help decide the economic viability of mobile poo and other ideas.

It would appear to me that may years after rocks were pulled into LS the rocks stayed - I am sorry they did not pull in e-loos too.

Side issue - I beliieve there is nothing in the CAO demanding anything done to Little Sluice this year? I am not sure why this "blowing up" issue is coming up now unless the DOT has gotten its head wrapped up in something like Rubicon Trail Master Plan Alternative A and has moved its eye off the CAO ball. Or the Water Board has changed its demands - I haven't read the public file yet. Or is "why now" a mystery - do it because DOT says so?

If the problem is poo and oil at Little Sluice then that has to be resolved regardless but these other issues help frame what suggestion can work and what can not. I think we are getting closer to clarifying the poo problem and thereby be able to have a problem statement that encomposes the atmosphere that a solution must be found in.
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:18 PM   #214 (permalink)
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how does dynamite or ammonium nitrate undo the crime?
Myself and the majority of the Rubicon Trail users would once again be able to travel the entire trail.



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I'd bet there were laws broken when the road was "built" in the first place.
Until the recent Route Designation process, by the Tahoe National Forest anyway, cross county travel was still legal. Anyone could drive anywhere they wanted. It's unclear how the resource damage card would have been played if someone had tried it. Not sure when the ENF ended cross county travel.



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but how do we know that it was caused by "criminals", and not plain ole gravity?
I was there July of '00. I thought I could make the LS but I wasn't about to try in front of a mob. Call me shy. I got up early the next morning and while most everyone else was still sleeping I walked over the the LS to get a look from above before trying to drive it. I was upset to see a fresh boulder, larger than the others, in the middle of the box. There was no way I was going to make it without damaging my rig. There was no earthquake, no heavy rains, no act of god. It was human.

That was just one of many boulders that have found their way in to the LS. Don't you think it's interesting that this phenomenon happens so frequently in the LS? How many boulders have "fallen" in to the LS? But it's not the only place.

Just this past weekend, an individual (or group) pulled a boulder off the uphill side of the trail on Cadillac Hill and on to the trail. There was no earthquake, no heavy rains, no act of god. It was human. And it virtually blocked the trail. The boulder was soon removed from the trail the way those in the LS should have been dealt with years ago.
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:07 PM   #215 (permalink)
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I vote the proper way to solve poo is a toilet. I suspect a poll on that issue would be overwelmingly that same point of view.
John has correctly pointed out that the FS does not like the idea of toilets and believe a use permit has to come from the FS.

So I am not seeing a problem but a positon about a wish and I want to solve problems.
This has been talked about plenty. The FS is NOT against the idea of a toilet. Check my old thread on "bathroom".

You want to help solve the problem? Begin by finding a few feasbile spots to put a toilet in. This is step #1, in order for us to put together a proposal as step #2.

The communication has been made with DOT and FS. They're willing to listen. But among ourselves, we can't come to an agreement on where a suitable spot for a can would be. I picked several locations, but each one was either uphill from water, or too close to this or that.

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I lost my freedom to drive the Rubicon trail in its entirety when some criminals illegally blocked the trail with some boulders from the cliff face.
No you didn't. You can still take the bypass and run the entire trail.

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Myself and the majority of the Rubicon Trail users would once again be able to travel the entire trail.

There was no way I was going to make it without damaging my rig.
Like I said, you CAN travel the entire trail.
If that part of the trail is too hard for your rig, then you have something to look forward to in the future if you build you rig up more.

What's with the attitude of "No, I don't want to take the bypass - I want the WHOLE trail to be easier!"???

Let me put it like this - with my friends I'm willing to fight an opponent that outweighs me by 40 pounds. But I don't call to BAN all guys over 200pounds from our sport. Even if they did steroids and got big illegally, those monsters still belong in the ring, for the guys that CAN handle them.


EDIT: The last thing we need is to fight among ourselves. We NEED guys like you to understand and be a little "non-selfish" about this.

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Old 07-22-2009, 02:22 PM   #216 (permalink)
 
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I completely agree we ultimately have to understand more background to address on-going issues, however, I think there is currently so much information available everyone is grabbing different pieces of that huge elephant. What is lacking is a concise statement of the problem that includes guidelines for finding a solution.

In a trial the closing argument is a summary of weeks of presentation. On the subject of LS there are years of testimony available to read. The time has come for summation. That first takes a review.

I don't think DOT woke up one day and said lets put LS back to pre-1992 condition. While its possible someone got wrapped up in their own power - I really doubt that. I see in El Dorado County docs many years of "let's remove the rocks". There is a reason behind this issue - IF it is poo on the ground and fear of oil on the rocks becoming mobile and finding its way into water - then let's address the poo and oil because that issue is not unique to LS.

I also personally believe blowing up rocks in LS is an ineffective way of addressing poo and oil - or even the politics. I suspect this issue is being badly expressed in this way due to the obvious frustration from having to discuss LS for years. I wish there could be more focus on how to clean up the spilled milk on floor and less on finding out if little Charlie really spilled it.

So - what are we trying to resolve here that is vital to keeping the trail open - poo and oil - or the rocks?

Whether the trail is passable for all vehicles in all places is not at issue with the Water Board. Oil is an issue but I don't see the CAO saying that is just a LS problem. Am I missing something?
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:40 PM   #217 (permalink)
 
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This has been talked about plenty. The FS is NOT against the idea of a toilet. Check my old thread on "bathroom".

You want to help solve the problem? Begin by finding a few feasbile spots to put a toilet in. This is step #1, in order for us to put together a proposal as step #2.

The communication has been made with DOT and FS. They're willing to listen. But among ourselves, we can't come to an agreement on where a suitable spot for a can would be. I picked several locations, but each one was either uphill from water, or too close to this or that.
Heck - the FS has even "listened" to me - doesn't mean they aren't laughing later. Will they do something?

Do you mean to present that a toilet is OK to put on a trail however the bottleneck is "ourselves" (who is that?) because we can't agree on where it goes?

Who has authority to make a decision on where the toilet goes. As far as location, if its a contained unit then that eliminates the uphill problem - no?

You also wrote "a toilet" not "toilets" - does that mean 1 is OK but 2 may not be? (sorry - you have to go put e-lawyer under your name and I know what that means - LOL)
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:50 PM   #218 (permalink)
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Heck - the FS has even "listened" to me - doesn't mean they aren't laughing later. Will they do something?

Do you mean to present that a toilet is OK to put on a trail however the bottleneck is "ourselves" (who is that?) because we can't agree on where it goes?

Who has authority to make a decision on where the toilet goes. As far as location, if its a contained unit then that eliminates the uphill problem - no?

You also wrote "a toilet" not "toilets" - does that mean 1 is OK but 2 may not be? (sorry - you have to go put e-lawyer under your name and I know what that means - LOL)
The reason "we" can't agree on it is because some of us are smarter than others, or have more experience with this sort of thing. I would fall into the category of less smart and less experienced. I put forth a few suggestions on locations and other folks pointed out reasons why those locations won't work. They know what they're talking about and I trust them. They have the wisdom and foresight to know my chosen spots would not work.

So - we need to keep trying. We need to scout locations, take pictures and get lats and longs and decide WHY those locations would be a good choice. Once that's in place, we can put together a proposal. I'm willing to personally put countless hours into getting this proposal done and put in front of the right people. But we need to start with a full consensus that we all agree is right.

And yes, a double-toilet system is not out of the question. The cost from a single to double is worth it when you think you drop $14-16K on a single and around $20K on a double. Maintence is a greater cost over a long term, but one way or another I believe it can be swallowed. OHV funds, private donations, I'd be willing to host fundraisers once a year to do my part, and I'm sure many of you would, too.

If I won the lotto, I'd pay for 100% of it all by myself with pleasure. But alas, I still go broke every month buy diapers...

Here's a link to my old thread on this subject: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...throom+rubicon


PS: The "elawyer" bit is from a thread about a guy that bought a bike on ebay that had a typo and listed the bike for 10% of it's value.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:02 PM   #219 (permalink)
 
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You type fast - LOL. Yes I had read that thread and just read it again.

What happened that you stopped in October? It seemed like things were moving down the pipe - like other threads I have read the issue just drops. (was the one considered the solution?)

I do not believe some of the blocking issues presented there still apply. The Water Board being involved should help get things flowing.

It would appear, like me, you are not rich but you are willing to contribute when it makes sense. I suspect there are others willing to also - lurking. They will have a more developed sense of humor than me

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Old 07-22-2009, 03:06 PM   #220 (permalink)
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I really don't think pointing fingers and witch hunting is going to "FIX" this issue. I'm going to throw this out and see what happens, "The bottom line" who would benefit from the trail being easily traveled via the historic route? I do not run the little sluice don't plan on it, so with that said, This will not end with the little sluice, The poo will stack up somewhere else the oil will spill and a rock will roll into the trail, I believe all the tough sections of the Rubicon trail will suffer the same demise as the gate keeper. Now I'm going back to my bunker.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:10 PM   #221 (permalink)
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Chas, it's not over. Just on hold. I'll be up there this weekend, but not all the way to the box. September comes and my folks are heading in with the Marlin group. Then, I'll take some more time and try and scout a few more potential spots. It would be nice to have someone with more perspective guide me along, but I can't make demands so I'll keep firing arrows into the dark until one sticks.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:25 PM   #222 (permalink)
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Now I feel the need to voice my anger ...

I have read these posts, all of them, and I am amazed at what appears to be the common denominator here: Pointing fingers and placing blame on those entities that are not responsible for what the action outcome will be put in place for LS.

Truly, we all have a stake in this and we all have our agendas. Though I cannot (and will not) attempt to speak for most, I will defend two groups, the Friends groups and RTF. These groups have not ever asked for LS to be altered. As for "freedoms" - well too freaking bad. Because this is America doesn't make it free. We aren't free to do many things. But we are free to fight for those ideas we feel should be free. If you all want LS, then fight for it - but with responsible action, not the bitch fest which is all I see here.

The Friends groups and RTF are not the problem so stop barking up the wrong trees! I have personally seen the sacrifice and commitment that these people have for that Trail. There is NO WAY anyone can even imagine the time and energy and personal finances and sacrifice these people make for you all. Am I biased? Damn straight! And they aren't the only ones sacrificing - their families are too, by default. And yet, a lot of the folks bitching aren't ever seen at ROC meetings or making public appearances. In fact, they don't even read the information that's put out there! They don't do anything until a rumor gets spread, then they get their panties in a wad and start more rumors.

Be part of the solution, not the problem, and stop putting blame where it downright doesn't belong. Many of you are little more than spoiled children who expect something for nothing without regard to what others are going out of their way to do for you all, as well as for themselves.

I am NOT RTF (yes, my husband is), I am NOT FOE and I am NOT FOTR (yes, I do help them) - but I know what they all do and they aren't the enemy...the enemy is ignorance.

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Old 07-22-2009, 03:29 PM   #223 (permalink)
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You can still take the bypass and run the entire trail.
Can you not see the fallacy of your own statement?

Let me restate what I posted several years ago regarding your arguement: "I have driven the Rubicon Trail in my 2wd 1995 Chevy S10 pick-up! Of course I took the bypass, otherwise know as highway 50."



Quote:
If that part of the trail is too hard for your rig, then you have something to look forward to in the future if you build you rig up more. What's with the attitude of "No, I don't want to take the bypass - I want the WHOLE trail to be easier!"???
First off, the trail wasn't easy or hard before someone illegally blocked it with boulders. It was what it was. After the illegal acts, it was harder than before. Someone altered the trail for their own personal gain without regard for others. That's not right. I'm not advocating making the whole trail easier but I will make the arguement that the trail should return to the condition it was in before the illegal acts of putting boulders on the trail took place.

From what I read in your post, you're okay with anyone altering the trail to make it harder and your response to those who disagree is "build a better rig". But if someone (say the County) wants tone down a section of the trail for whatever reason(s), you're not okay with that. Double standard?

So I build a rig with 39" tires and full width axles and then more boulders appear in the trail the following year. Your answer is build a better rig? At what point does it stop?
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Simple Man is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2009, 03:33 PM   #224 (permalink)
 
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I am confused, you are not doing this as RTF or one of the other groups but as an individual trying to tackle the problem? I still have a difficult time keeping straight who is who by their handle.

Always glad to see people that are willing to try to wipe up the milk while most are just into being hysterical over milk on the floor. I have not heard from the land use people before that choosing a location is the key to resolving poo at LS. Is location the main obstacle? Are you attempting to find a place within the 50 feet or that is not an issue because the FS will allow it anywhere reasonable in your opinion?
chasinternet is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-22-2009, 03:36 PM   #225 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n6boa View Post
I have read these posts, all of them, and I am amazed at what appears to be the common denominator here: Pointing fingers and placing blame on those entities that are not responsible for what the action outcome will be put in place for LS.

Truly, we all have a stake in this and we all have our agendas. Though I cannot (and will not) attempt to speak for most, I will defend two groups, the Friends groups and RTF. These groups have not ever asked for LS to be altered. As for "freedoms" - well too freaking bad. Because this is America doesn't make it free. We aren't free to do many things. But we are free to fight for those ideas we feel should be free. If you all want LS, then fight for it - but with responsible action, not the bitch fest which is all I see here.

The Friends groups and RTF are not the problem so stop barking up the wrong trees! I have personally seen the sacrifice and commitment that these people have for that Trail. There is NO WAY anyone can even imagine the time and energy and personal finances and sacrifice these people make for you all. Am I biased? Damn straight! And they aren't the only ones sacrificing - their families are too, by default. And yet, a lot of the folks bitching aren't ever seen at ROC meetings or making public appearances. In fact, they don't even read the information that's put out there! They don't do anything until a rumor gets spread, then they get their panties in a wad and start more rumors.

Be part of the solution, not the problem, and stop putting blame where it downright doesn't belong. Many of you are little more than spoiled children who expect something for nothing without regard to what others are going out of their way to do for you all, as well as for themselves.

I am NOT RTF (yes, my husband is), I am NOT FOE and I am NOT FOTR (yes, I do help them) - but I know what they all do and they aren't the enemy...the enemy is ignorance.

With the utmost respect, I notice in your post you have, pointed fingers, resorted to name calling, and not posted solutions... counter productive and offensive.. What were your intentions here?
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