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View Poll Results: Do you favor opening up Little Sluice
Yes - Blast the rocks and cobble it smooth 11 2.68%
Yes - remove large rocks but leave it somewhat tough, but doable 76 18.54%
No - it wouldn't do any good at this time! 29 7.07%
No - Never - Leave the box alone! 294 71.71%
Voters: 410. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-28-2009, 05:03 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by camo View Post
the value of somebody in clevlands opinion is exactly the same as anybody else's from around the country.

The Rubicon trail is a national treasure and is there for the enjoyment of anybody and everybody. If the Rubicon trail only held local appeal then it certainly would not be such a hot topic on the national level.

People from every state in the Union and in fact from around the world spent alot of time effort and money making the Rubicon trail a life long goal and destination. They deserve an opinion on what happens to the trail as much as the locals.
Very good response thanks Camo
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:12 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Instead of making the trail easier why not make it harder? It will see less use this way. There isnt even a gate keeper on the rubicon... i have seen guys with stock jeeps roll into the rubicon and honestly most of the time, from what i have seen, they are the ones that end up off trail because they are not built enough to handle the trail. Look at the area entering the springs, people are starting to go to the left at the mud pit at the end of old sluice. I have looked at the tracks on there are most of them were all terrain type tracks (indicating its not the hard core users). If we made a gatekeeper that you could not go around people with rigs that shouldnt be on the trail would be less inclined to go on the trail. Thats my .02 cents.

edit:

Look at Carnage Canyon outside Boulder Colorado. I have personally witnessed the destruction people can do when they go off trail, hence why im minoring in land sustainability. It was not the fault of the hardcore users. Most of the damage was caused by users who were driving vehicles not built enough to handle the obstacles on the trail. Right before the trail was closed it was impossible to tell what was trail and what wasnt. All it takes is one or two people to go off trail to leave tracks which makes other people think that it is also part of the trail.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:20 PM   #28 (permalink)
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it is not a harder vrs easier issue in my opinion.

there is a viable route around the little sluice that a stock Jeep can navigate.

and there is no need to make it harder. it is already a world class difficult obstacle.

it is about politics. pure and simple. it is politics.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:24 PM   #29 (permalink)
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it is about politics. pure and simple. it is politics.
You hit the nail on the head!
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:25 PM   #30 (permalink)
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it is not a harder vrs easier issue in my opinion.

there is a viable route around the little sluice that a stock Jeep can navigate.

and there is no need to make it harder. it is already a world class difficult obstacle.

it is about politics. pure and simple. it is politics.
Camo hit the nail on the head, Politics, county supervisors, and money!!
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:32 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Camo hit the nail on the head, Politics, county supervisors, and money!!
you left out the DOT.

And I really don't see the politics in this case being about money. I see it as more of ideology issue. It is a wedge issue and those that ultimately want the trail closed to motorized travel have a very effective game plan to chip away at their goal one small victory at a time.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:37 PM   #32 (permalink)
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it is not a harder vrs easier issue in my opinion.

there is a viable route around the little sluice that a stock Jeep can navigate.

and there is no need to make it harder. it is already a world class difficult obstacle.

it is about politics. pure and simple. it is politics.
Camo has hit the nail on the head, so to speak.

It is politics - pure and simple.

They know we, as a group, are passionate about the Rubicon, and they have seen us turn out in droves to defend the use of the Rubicon.

So what do they do?

Figure out a way to try to divide and conquer.



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Old 07-28-2009, 05:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Camo, you don't think that there is a organization that would benefit money wise from the trail being a little easier?
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:42 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I will argue the exact opposite. Those commercial outfitters draw their cliental from the wheeling community at large who is represented here in large numbers.
Eric, I have interviewed a significant number of their participants. Few of them are even aware of Pirate4x4.com. Outside of your circle last weekend at Jamboree, minus the vendors, who knew you?

Perhaps we're losing sight of the main issue... El Dorado County is discussing potential changes to Little Sluice un the August ROC meeting, and Tom Celio is soliciting suggestions and comments by email, and will be leading a public comment process. We may see perfect unanimity here on PBB, but comments need made to the County. Government is done by those who SHOW UP -- please make sure you send email and attend the public meetings!

I'll look forward to the results of this poll with interest -- any snapshot is a valuable snapshot, but we need a panoramic camera to sample the wide range of trail users here on Rubicon.

Looking at the data, we definitely see a skew on big holidays, with more traffic concentrating in specific areas. Our 2005 counts revolved around 4th of July weekend, and the secondary count weekend showed this skew, and this is one of the reasons why RTF is counting every weekend this summer (data is not compiled yet, FWIW).

Related 2005 data FYI:
* Spider (43%) and Buck (28%) were the primary destinations, with only 12% planning a trip all the way through
* 74% 4x4s, 9% quads, 4% cycles, 3% sandrails, 5% hikers
* 78% of users enter the trail for the weekend, for more than just one day

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Old 07-28-2009, 05:42 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyJeepThing View Post
Camo has hit the nail on the head, so to speak.

It is politics - pure and simple.

They know we, as a group, are passionate about the Rubicon, and they have seen us turn out in droves to defend the use of the Rubicon.

So what do they do?

Figure out a way to try to divide and conquer.

Amy
Thank you Amy,

How do we bring everyone back together.
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Old 07-28-2009, 05:53 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TWISTER78FSB View Post
Camo, you don't think that there is a organization that would benefit money wise from the trail being a little easier?
not in the way that you may think.

I believe that the way some companies are going to benefit financially from going along with various Rubicon Trail plans that are calling for closures and limited or altered access is that by going along with the plans they will be allowed to continue to operate their commercial endeavors on the rubicon in exchange for their cooperation.

So yes they will benefit by being allowed to continue to operate.

But in the big picture it is all about the ideology. in the example I gave you above MONEY was simply a tool being used to achieve the goal.
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:08 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I have a theory that I use over and over again.

It's called "Follow the money".

It has rarely let me down. I don't know how much the vendors' feel they have at stake, so I can't make an accurate assessment, but I bet they feel a significant portion of their business will be on the line if the Little Sluice is changed.

I think the answer lies in finding solutions that works for the majority, working from facts and figures and not from emotion.

My sense is that the OHV community feels it is losing so much - so many trails and areas - that any talk of change is going to arouse a significant response.

So I have to get more facts, that's why I plan on attending the ROC meeting on the 13th.

We bring everyone together by making sure that everyone's opinion and ideas are being heard, and no one belittles anyone else.

I know a lot of posts have gone by, but a lot of facts still seem to be in flux. Am I correct in that assessment?
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:09 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
Eric, I have interviewed a significant number of their participants. Few of them are even aware of Pirate4x4.com. Outside of your circle last weekend at Jamboree, minus the vendors, who knew you?


Randii
Randii,



1. I was not there last weekend.

2. are you trying to tell me that you formally interviewed people at jeepers jambo last weekend and actually asked them in your "interview" if they were familiar with pirate4x4.com ?

if that is the case then please share, how many is significant and how many is a few ?
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Old 07-28-2009, 06:21 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I have a theory that I use over and over again.

It's called "Follow the money".

It has rarely let me down. I don't know how much the vendors' feel they have at stake, so I can't make an accurate assessment, but I bet they feel a significant portion of their business will be on the line if the Little Sluice is changed.

I think the answer lies in finding solutions that works for the majority, working from facts and figures and not from emotion.

My sense is that the OHV community feels it is losing so much - so many trails and areas - that any talk of change is going to arouse a significant response.

So I have to get more facts, that's why I plan on attending the ROC meeting on the 13th.

We bring everyone together by making sure that everyone's opinion and ideas are being heard, and no one belittles anyone else.

I know a lot of posts have gone by, but a lot of facts still seem to be in flux. Am I correct in that assessment?
Yes, there are many gray areas and it's tough to hit a moving target.
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:06 PM   #40 (permalink)
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There is a destination question already on the form. The counts I have from Memorial day show well over 80% were headed to Little Sluice that weekend.

What does that mean exactly? Dunno.
We would need to add a subset to that question, and ask pointed questions when they answered that they are going to Little Sluice.

If they are running the whole trail, then ask them questions about Little Sluice too, and see what their opinion is.

I could generate up the questions for those that are counting, and get that data to add to the data points too.

I like data, and looking at in relation to what we are trying to do here!
Keep the trail open for all users.

Thanks for everyones input.

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Old 07-28-2009, 08:37 PM   #41 (permalink)
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obviously we do not reach the 20% of households that do not have internet.
And those 20% are less likely to vote, get involved, or even be aware of issues that stem from our woods. In a sense, they fall back into the shadows, surfacing now and then for air.

Quote:
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And I really don't see the politics in this case being about money.
I think money has a little to do with it. Money helps drive action. People with money have more influence on government. Jeeper Jamboree = big money. If all those jeeps don't "feel" like taking a bypass, their voice is a little louder with the greenbacks in pushing an agenda. Am I certain? Nope. But this is what I think and others agree. The good news is we got some dollars on our side, too. From sources that are relatively quiet...for now.

Quote:
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2. are you trying to tell me that you formally interviewed people at jeepers jambo last weekend and actually asked them in your "interview" if they were familiar with pirate4x4.com ?
I do. Volunteering at the kiosk, I ask everyone I talk to if they are read pirate, to get an idea of how many folks we touch with our information here. Looking at my data from a couple months back - 54% of the 4x4 vehicles I spoke to are either members here or read pirate4x4. <- these figures are based on one weekend only(end of May this year) and don't include the people I did not speak to(which was about 46%). As time goes forward and I get more chances to do it, the numbers will mean a lot more.



PS: I like the poll and the numbers I'm seeing.

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Old 07-28-2009, 09:21 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I talk to a lot of people on the trail, Eric... many of them do not visit Pirate4x4.com. Some groups are simpler to identify than others -- many of the outfitters' staff and customers (JJ, JJUSA, MASOR, Harald, Tahoe Adventures) do not participate here, but theirs is a well-documented, non-trivial slice of trail traffic. Other groups are harder to generalize, but spend some time polling on the trail, and there's no doubt that they are there ingreat numbers.

PBB is a great resource, and I appreciate it, but any casual poll of trail users results in a significant number of users that don't know FOTR, RTF, or PBB... it is what it is. That doesn't reflect poorly on FOTR, RTF, or PBB -- rather, it just underlines that we need to keep working to get the word out.

I'm not trying to slam PBB or piss of anyone -- just pointing out that PBB's unique place online doesn't map exactly to the full distribution of Rubicon Trail users.

Randii

As some one the frequents the trail more than most, and talks to everyone. I agree. Some people here are so friggin pompous they will not even say hi to you on the trail or around town.

What I do know is that there is a whole lot of wheelers out there that don't frequent this site.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:51 PM   #43 (permalink)
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What I do know is that there is a whole lot of wheelers out there that don't frequent this site.
I know that pirate4x4 only gets 1,400,000 visits to the site each month. Obviously that is only a fraction of the total number of OHV or "wheeling" enthusiast in the USA.

my point is that with that large of a population the sampling is more then adaquete to represent the "average" Rubicon trail user for the purpose of an opinion poll.

nobody, especially me is suggesting that Pirate4x4 reaches every OHV enthusiast nor is the poll being posed as a vote where everybody is supposed to be counted.
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Old 07-28-2009, 09:59 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I have been trying to stay out of this conversation since:

A. I am realitvley new to the scene (<4 years)
B. I drive a POS rig that CAN'T make the box
C. Everyone knows my position on the issue
D. I keep pushing out solutions, but they seem to fall of deaf ears...

But still, my LOUD mouth can never stay quiet, and I would like to address a few things posted in this thread.

VALIDITY OF THIS POLL

Ok, so maybe Pirate is not the END-ALL 4x4 website. But it's damn well on it's way and very close. I frequent MANY local and national 4x4 boards becuase of land-use BS, and guess what: They ALL reference some thread on Pirate on WAY more than one occasion.

ALL ROADS LEAD TO PIRATE.

So that begs the question, who doesn't read this board? In my experience have found either newbie wheelers and mall crawlers, but even more importantly: the "old school" Jeeper crowd.

I think that's what is going on here: Old School vs. New.

bottom line: the sport is changing. People keep building better and better rigs. The old school crowd looks at the younger ones and says "Got-damned buggy bastards!" and then they proceed to blame stuff on the so called "extreme" crowd. It's time for the "extreme" (I like "high-end user" instead of the overused "extreme" actually) crowd to have some voice. In our organizations, who is in charge? Old school jeeper guys, or the younger more "high-end" guys? Cal4 is starting to get that (from what I have heard)

Has anyone here been to KOH, a WE Rock event or CalROCS? Have you SEEN the amount of people now attending those events? the numbers have grown drastically. Part of that is becuase 1/2 the fun of this lifestyle is building a better rig. Adding more stuff to wheel bigger obstacles. The sport is evolving, and some people do not like it. They want it to remain 1980's mode.

CAMO and PBB

At KOH this year, out of the 15,000+ people on that lakebed, you would be VERY hard pressed to find someone that DID NOT know CAMO. Same goes for the WE ROCK event at Reno I was at. IMO, the old-school crowd may not know him, but ALL of the up and coming "high end" users do. Therefore: they have been on Pirate.

Sh*t, i was on a conference call with a major company the other week, and the got-damned PR folks from an outside PR firm knew who he was.

Camo is very in-tune to the sport and where it is going. I am not swinging from his balls Tarzan style here, I am only stating what I have seen.

TEARING THE 4X4 COMMUNITY APART

I can only speak for myself, but I call bullshit. I am friends with several "anti-boulderists". While I respect their opinion, we can still disagree and be friends. I will drink a beer, hug, work side by side with, hang out with, go thru the fire with and even kiss on the head, an anti-boulderist. We can't always agree.

I hope everyone else can say the same. I fight with the wife occasionally, but I still love her.

I have more to say, but I gotta finish a press release for Travis who is running in Vegas to Reno before he shoots me.

Oh, one solution:

What about making the Wentworth to Ellis part of the Con REALLY REALLY hard by pulling in boulders etc, and then keeping the Loon enterance thru the gatekeeper a cake-walk? That way you have two options for wheeling the trail?

I am a land-use activist, and I fight for ALL types of users. It's time someone fought for the "high-end" user. They need a place to wheel too.
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:00 PM   #45 (permalink)
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You sold me I can agree on those points. But I do still run into many trail users that don't come here, or are scared of here

Of that 1.4 million I might be responsible for a third
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:32 PM   #46 (permalink)
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sounds like I need to start wheeling my stone stock 1950 willys cj3a more to bolster my street credientials with the old school crowd

( sad truth is that I keep it in colorado on the family ranch high in the rockies and it has never seen the Rubicon )
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:35 PM   #47 (permalink)
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My humble opinion:)

This is sad to see!!! Are we watching the loss of the battle occur right here in front of us!!! Scanning through the many threads discussing the same subject we can observe more emotions and feelings than I've personally seen in the Rubicon forum ever before. People are getting "Butt hurt" and the division is becoming plan as day. Division being the important part. People are "Pissed" and we are arguing amongst ourselves. I can see the "other side" reading the many threads here and just smiling happily away to themselves.

As the title states this is just my humble opinion. The "Box" is going to be changed!!! I have very little doubt about it. I would even go as far as to suggest the method and extent of the changes have already been decided. Kinda similar to being asked for public input at the forest service meetings, then it becoming plan as day the invite was just a necessary formality and are voices didn't change a dam thing. I will say the water board meeting went down with better results but lets stay on subject.

Should we fight for what we want? Sure...of course we should. Do we need to be heard? Of course we do but we need to do all of these things with our eyes OPEN and more importantly TOGETHER!!! Stop with the squabbling and bickering and get back to the solidarity.

For the record. My feelings about the "Box" are this. It's a hot spot for problems and large groups. The oil spills and trash are just a tool being used to push the underlaying issue which is large unsupervised crowds. Personally the only reason I would be against changing it would be this is going to ultimately open the door for even more changes down the road and the chance of moving the "party" to other areas of the trail. At least in it's current form I know where to avoid if I'm looking for "quiet time" and thats just fine with me.

Let's keep it together people
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Old 07-28-2009, 10:43 PM   #48 (permalink)
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No formal interviews, but I talked to easily a hundred people and referenced the discussion about Little Sluice on Pirate4x4.com to most of them, and about two thirds of them were not aware of the Little Sluice discussion, with about half of them not aware of Pirate4x4.com -- some of them knew the logo (we were 25 feet from a banner).

Pirate4x4.com has great opportunity to grow the Jeepers Jamboree customer market.

This was not at all scientific polling, but then again, neither is this thread.

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Old 07-28-2009, 10:52 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Oh, one solution:

What about making the Wentworth to Ellis part of the Con REALLY REALLY hard by pulling in boulders etc, and then keeping the Loon enterance thru the gatekeeper a cake-walk? That way you have two options for wheeling the trail?
Good coming up with idea's, but disagree with messing with Wentworth. It is a great "quiet" place and has lots of water most of the year.

PBB is a VERY informative website. I know allot of my friends that do not frequent the site for the most part of all the BS/web wheelers/rumors.

Remember, if one person is happy they will tell on average 2-3 people
If that same person is pissed off about something (i.e. Little Sluice) they will tell 10-20 people. The LS problem is making its rounds quick in the wheelin world and not just from reading this board but just from word of mouth
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Old 07-28-2009, 11:07 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cruzila View Post
PBB user base is not representative of the user base on the Rubicon Trail by any means.....
Again, this Pirate board is not a full representation of the user base, so take it with a grain of salt.
Scott
Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
but I'm still not convinced that this would get a more representative sampling of actual trail users.

Randii
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yota Up View Post
I do. Volunteering at the kiosk, I ask everyone I talk to if they are read pirate, to get an idea of how many folks we touch with our information here. Looking at my data from a couple months back - 54% of the 4x4 vehicles I spoke to are either members here or read pirate4x4. <- these figures are based on one weekend only
Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
, with about half of them not aware of Pirate4x4.com --

Randii

with roughly 1/2 of the users on the Rubicon Trail trail at any given time aware of Pirate4x4 I think my point is well made.

while pirate4x4 by no mean represents every single OHV user. As a statistical sampling population it is representative of the Rubicon Trail user base across many different subsets of the OHV population.
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