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View Poll Results: Do you favor opening up Little Sluice
Yes - Blast the rocks and cobble it smooth 11 2.68%
Yes - remove large rocks but leave it somewhat tough, but doable 76 18.54%
No - it wouldn't do any good at this time! 29 7.07%
No - Never - Leave the box alone! 294 71.71%
Voters: 410. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-30-2009, 01:03 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Well... the poll is valid in the world of probability and statistics... but I have never known validity to be of concern in the world of politics.
Ok, then what is your view of "public input" in the world of politics?

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Old 07-30-2009, 01:54 AM   #102 (permalink)
 
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Thumbs down

As usual, I was being a bit tongue-in cheek. I was pointing out polls tend not to slow an argument down - it just adds arguing about the poll.

The poll can be done perfectly - but it does not address County concerns and therefore I certainly don't see them caring. Its going to take both - first making sure they hear loudly not to take the boulders down and then getting behind solutions to the oil/poop issues that the Water Board tends to focus on.

I wouldn't expect the land use leaders to dispute the poll results in the sense it will reflect a majority opinion if at the end 75% are still against reducing boulders. Whether that means they change what they advocate I leave to them.

I think the poll should matter to the land use community. The world that existed in 2004 -2005 when the "reduce the boulders" idea was developed is gone. The poll will reflect the change.

Back in the day, I really liked the book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese
I was working in a law firm and the realities of litigation means 90-95% of everything you invest your hard work in winds up in the trash can. Litigation is change at light speed and that can get to you - the book reminded me I needed to adjust my attitudes and stop taking it all so seriously.

I also don't expect it is going to phase the County one bit if the poll is 1000:1 against because they are going to do their own process controlled by themselves. I think if the 1000 voiced an opinion to DOT and a few hundred show up at the designated hearing (if there is one) - then we are talking changing minds - which likely doesn't mean a declaration from the County that they will do nothing - it just means the idea silently dies.

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Old 07-30-2009, 03:08 AM   #103 (permalink)
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The County had already decided for smaller rocks - the decision was done.
Sorry, Charles -- I have attended almost all the ROC meetings, and I can assure you that while some participants of the ROC wish otherwise, that no plan yet exists. As noted repeatedly, there will be a public process AND THEN a project will be defined, and that's when rock size may begin to be discussed as a specific County direction. Individuals complaining at ROC are well-recorded, but agency direction is yet to be determined.

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So we already know Tom Celio previously said the boulders will be reduced in size.
Show me this -- I flat-out disbelieve it to be true.

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Originally Posted by chasinternet View Post
Back in the day, someone named Randii wrote that the ROC/County idea of resizing the rocks in the Little Sluice "scares the hell out of me " and "I stated that Little Sluice was a powder keg, one that should not be undertaken lightly," - I think Randii had a lot of insight into this issue and immediately knew the correct position to take.
What has changed?
Charles, my personal opinion remains the same, years later: https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...9&postcount=10
I'm still scared of the wedge Little Sluice will cut through our hobby. Little Sluice is still a powder keg -- or had you not noticed the hundreds of posts on the topic? Believe me, I'd rather be addressing the list of 80+ California Geological Survey tasks -- the Water Quality Board clock is ticking on their delivery.

The continued need is for trail users of every ilk, every tire-size, and every make to write specific suggestion to Tom Celio at [email protected]

It is a shame if you don't trust me, but don't let that stop any of you from commenting. Hell, if you don't trust me, that's even MORE reason to make sure your voice is heard, because I have been speaking for many of you in the ROC for years because I SHOWED UP. I defend my hobby and your use because I'M IN THE ROOM. When the anti's blast 'wheeling peers, I speak up for them because I'M THERE. I'll welcome the company, but I'LL STILL BE THERE.

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Old 07-30-2009, 03:57 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Eating our own.....Of all of the "land use" types I have met through the years, Randii has always stood out to me to be a stand up guy that is looking out for all of us, and it really makes me sad to see him take such a beating in this forum for the last week. I think users, people on the pbb, sometimes forget that no matter how strong your emotion is on a bulletin board that it often times means jack chit when the real decisions are made.

I guess all that I am saying is that I just do not understand why we always beat up on the people that are fighting for us rather then the people that are fighting against us

Now if Randii is being a jackass I will be the first to call him and tell him so, but I just dont buy it knowing the guy

For the record I dont want to see the box blasted and voted so. It really isn't that hard unless you drive like a tard
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:17 AM   #105 (permalink)
 
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It is a shame if you don't trust me,
I don't understand the trust issue - how do you see our discussion as violating trust towards you? I don't question your sincerity or committment.

There seems to be a lot of energy around the use of the word "project". What does project mean to you? I use the word because that is what it is called in documents - a project can mean many things and I suspect most of us know that.
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Old 07-30-2009, 04:34 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Thanks for the good words, Keith. In the balance, I figure I'm karma-positive for the day, even if I did want to punch Camo.

Charles, the 'trust' comment was directed to the larger audience -- there truly are some folks who don't trust me.

To the County, 'project' is a magical word... they discourage us from calling our work weekends 'projects' -- my impression is that 'projects' require more planning, approvals, and financial tracking. The Count asked us to avoid the P-word, so we try.

I'm out -- g'night.

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Old 07-30-2009, 08:17 AM   #107 (permalink)
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even if I did want to punch Camo.

Randii
Randii,

The only heat you are taking from me on this really has noting to do with the little sluice boulder issue nor my opinion of the little sluice solution or the final outcome.

Yourself and cruizilla are 2 important Landuse leaders and you both made very bold and misinform statements that are totally inaccurate about the Pirate4x4 reader base.

I will stand by my statement and debate the fact that that Pirate4x4 readers represents the Rubicon Trail OHV user group until well after the box has been blown to cobbles.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:17 AM   #108 (permalink)
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I have never been to a ROC meeting, as I live down past Fresno.
But I know from talking to Randii, that he represents the users very well, and with plenty of emotion at the ROC meetings.

I trust him with my vote at the ROC.

We may not always see eye to eye on all issues, but we are both man enough to admit that we will agree to disagree, and then work side by side to protect the trail.

I will give everything I have to keep ALL trails open.

As the FOTR Trail Boss, I will give 110 percent to the Rubicon when I am working either on the trail, or working to keep it open.

So, no matter if you agree or disagree with Randii's position here in this thread, I would ask that you do tell him thanks for protecting your interest on the trail at ROC meetings.

Now, Randii is not the only one that attends ROC meetings for FOTR/RTF, and we also need to thank them too.

Thanks Randii and the others that attend the ROC meetings.

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Old 07-30-2009, 09:05 AM   #109 (permalink)
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I voted leave it alone. Someone mentioned in one reply that the problem is "large numbers of unsupervised crowds" is the problem. Does it mean that if I want to gather up a hundred of my friends and spend the weekend in the middle of Nevada camping and having a good time, I have to hire someone to supervise us? Well my friend, I call that FREEDOM.

Anyone taken a walk around Spider lately? I have not been able to. I'd put my neck on the line and take a swag that even after decades of use from wheeled vehicles camping near the lake, and pooping, that place looks awesome. Where are the results of tests from any angle that prove there is resource damage in the area?

As far as the PBB being a good place for an across the board sample of Rubicon wheelers, I am not certain. I do realize it is an extreme type of board, and that not all peeps here get to the land use sections. Seems like a good idea to post the poll in other forums to reach out for numbers. Thank You for doing that.

I am kinda an ol fart, and know MANY people in the wheeling community that absolutly do not visit this website. They are not extreme wheelers. These are guys that have nice trail rigs and frequent the Rubicon, out of state trails, and other local trails often. One of them that comes to mind works for Eldo DOT. I'd be suprised if any of those wheelers I am referring to would vote for anything other than, "Leave It Alone". They don't run the box, and they don't camp near either.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:09 AM   #110 (permalink)
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with roughly 1/2 of the users on the Rubicon Trail trail at any given time aware of Pirate4x4 I think my point is well made.

while pirate4x4 by no mean represents every single OHV user. As a statistical sampling population it is representative of the Rubicon Trail user base across many different subsets of the OHV population.


I'm sure we would all agree more than 50% of the folks on the Rubicon are aware of Pirate4x4. That fact alone does not prove your point... Now if we could say 50% of trail users are active red star PBB members, and by active I mean log on and/or post up at least a couple times a month, we wouldnít be having this validity discussion..

Secondly, until we can clearly differentiate between actual Rubicon trail users and World Wide Web Wheelers, an Internet poll such as this one it is simply just for fun and statistically useless in regards to actual trail users opinions..

I am willing to bet if we did a actual trail poll, we would find the poll to be much closer to 50-50 than the 75 Ė20 this poll will end up suggesting..

Lastly, I donít know how many of you have done Rubicon trail users polls, but I and my club camped out at gatekeeper for 2 nights during 4th of July 2004 for the Rubicon Trail Master Plan Study, (Radiiís group polled @ Ellis someone else polled the Tahoe side) but I also worked with the agencies as a Transportation Engineer to come up with a sampling plan that was accepted and signed off on by all interested parties. My point is, to a DOT Engineer or Planner a very loosely worded, fly by night internet poll is fun but useless..
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:33 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Flashlightman.

I am not the one who offered up the 50% figure. Randii and Yota did.

If you go back and read their post. randii gathered his info from jeepers jambo and yota got his from the trailhead. they both came up with similar percentages.


I am stated that every month Pirate4x4 has 1,400,000 visits to the website from across the nation.

those visitors are made up of a broad cross section of the OHV community. that community is the RUBICON USER group. to argue otherwise is just ignorant on peoples part.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:35 AM   #112 (permalink)
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My point is that the readers in the Rubicon forum are not a majority of web wheelers. They are a majority of concerned Rubicon Wheelers. It's why they come to this section, here on Pirate 4x4.

Rick and I spent 3 1/2 days at Ellis doing counts THIS Memorial Day, and the overwhelming majority of wheelers going by were headed to LS/Spider for the weekend.

I at first was filled with dread, thinking about how the area would look after the weekend. But instead, was pleasantly surprised, when I saw how many rigs on their way out were packed to the gills with camping gear and full trash bags.

I asked folks as they were leaving "How does LS area look?" Every single one responded "Clean! we picked up everything we could find on our way out".

We gave out over 300 wag bags, and oil spill kits. Thanks to RTF and the County.

So the work of RTF and FOTR does not go unnoticed by any means. It has been highly effective and will continue to improve as more and more people are reached every weekend. But this is what it takes....work, hard work. And no, it will never end. Nobody respects whats not inspected. We have to stay on it.

At this point, it can't get worse, we need to just step up the focus on LS/Spider and Soup Bowl and a big group of folks are about to do just that.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:45 AM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I'

Secondly, until we can clearly differentiate between actual Rubicon trail users and World Wide Web Wheelers, .
Actually rubicon trail user. = somebody who is currently on the rubicon trail

World wide web wheeler= everybody else

my question to you is if I live across the country and have spend my life dreaming of a rubicon trip, saved all my money for that big road trip and have spent years building my rig for the adventure.

does that guys opinion on the future of the rubicon matter less the then local guy who is currently wheeling the rubicon ?

To me both opinions are valued. The Rubicon is the crown Jewel of the OHV community and belongs to everybody. not a few elitist who claim it as their home turf.
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Old 07-30-2009, 09:54 AM   #114 (permalink)
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I voted leave it alone. Someone mentioned in one reply that the problem is "large numbers of unsupervised crowds" is the problem. Does it mean that if I want to gather up a hundred of my friends and spend the weekend in the middle of Nevada camping and having a good time, I have to hire someone to supervise us? Well my friend, I call that FREEDOM. .
Maybe referring to my comments? Okay let me try to clarify my statements a little. As many on this board know I have always believed in "Public lands" I have always believed, this is "our land" and I will continue to recreate in this manner. I think I even stated somewhere "they'll have to claw it from my cold dead hands" But your statements bring me back to my "open eyes" comment.

I ask you this in regard to your statement about gathering up your friends having a good time in Nevada. If I collect up my friends and go on down to the corner of Land Park, here in the city, party it up till the wee hours, loud music a blaring and myriad of other things going on. Do you think the authorities will show up, my guess would be yes.

Here in lies the problem. While many of us choose to get away to less populated areas to "let loose" and have a "good time", myself included. These areas are becoming less and less available and more and more under a microscope.

Whether you choose to believe and accept it or not the "Box" and the whole trail for that matter is under a microscope. I would suggest that these sensitive areas are being observed maybe even more so than the aforementioned "Land Park". They are being watched by not only the authorities but also the "Enviros" and our own peers. Just look in this very forum. There is mention of our "buddy" Monte posting a statement with video pushing his agenda.

Yes you have "Freedom" and yes these are "Public Lands" just be aware that in regard to the Rubicon Trail, every action and decision you make is being watched just as closely as if you were standing on the highway in the city.

I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" on this. Hell I've enjoyed many an afternoon having a good time at the "Box". I'm just trying to keep a realistic perspective on what's going on.

Anyway let me get out of here so Camo and Randi can continue to debate the powers of the PBB
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:11 AM   #115 (permalink)
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I ask you this in regard to your statement about gathering up your friends having a good time in Nevada. If I collect up my friends and go on down to the corner of Land Park, here in the city, party it up till the wee hours, loud music a blaring and myriad of other things going on. Do you think the authorities will show up, my guess would be yes.
Why is it not legal to stay up late and party til weee hours and be noisy in the NF?

Quote:
Here in lies the problem. While many of us choose to get away to less populated areas to "let loose" and have a "good time", myself included. These areas are becoming less and less available and more and more under a microscope.
You have the right not to camp near the LS anytime you choose. If you only like Country music, are you going to go to a Metallica concert? You will probably drive to Buck Island where the country music is playing.

Quote:
Whether you choose to believe and accept it or not the "Box" and the whole trail for that matter is under a microscope. I would suggest that these sensitive areas are being observed maybe even more so than the aforementioned "Land Park". They are being watched by not only the authorities but also the "Enviros" and our own peers. Just look in this very forum. There is mention of our "buddy" Monte posting a statement with video pushing his agenda.
If they are using a "microscope" to watch this "sensitive" area (why is it any more sensitive than any other part of the world enviroment?), where are the FACTS that shows negative impact? What Monte showed was a totally legal act performed by a law abiding citizen. He can do that all the time AFAIAC.

Quote:
Yes you have "Freedom" and yes these are "Public Lands" just be aware that in regard to the Rubicon Trail, every action and decision you make is being watched just as closely as if you were standing on the highway in the city.
Whomever can watch me all they like. Wheeling the trail, camping, partying, loudness................... Is that really not allowed? You are telling me I cant party, make noise or stay up til the wee hours in the city or the forest?

Quote:
I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" on this. Hell I've enjoyed many an afternoon having a good time at the "Box". I'm just trying to keep a realistic perspective on what's going on.
So, realism is go wheeling, dont make a peep, and go to bed at 10:00pm?
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:16 AM   #116 (permalink)
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My point is that the readers in the Rubicon forum are not a majority of web wheelers. They are a majority of concerned Rubicon Wheelers. It's why they come to this section, here on Pirate 4x4.
As usual I agree with you Bebe, the "readers" here are informed and concerned yes.
But "voters" love to sway internet polls, and it can be done with one phone call or one post to another board, and that fact in itself make internet polls funnay .... that was my point...



what i would really like to hear, is what are your reasons to NOT make the road passable to your average rig on 36s with lockers? best i've heard is "it will just move the problem elsewhere"..

I've been thinking about starting a new thread with this question soley for the fact that as a DOT guy i wanna know why, how does making the road passable to only extream OHV guys benifit the general public?.. In general DOT guys are concerned with the general publics safety and mobility on county roads, NOT OHV guys..
If your response is simply rooted in selfishness, thats fine for you but public officials couldn't careless.. and yes, i helped pour concrete on the bypass, know all about it but in the eyes of the DOT the bypass may not be considdered the road..

I don't wanna sound like an obama fag, (i voted independent Phil).. or anti extreme, but as a DOT guy i strongly feel keeping the road as an OHV park will KILL the trail before my 4 sons or grandkids get to drive it, actually my oldest drove it when he was 14.... I've drove the trail enough .. i'm in this for our kids..

rat off..
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:18 AM   #117 (permalink)
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As usual I agree with you Bebe, the "readers" here are informed and concerned yes.
But "voters" love to sway internet polls, and it can be done with one phone call or one post to another board, and that fact in itself make internet polls funnay .... that was my point...



what i would really like to hear, is what are your reasons to NOT make the road passable to your average rig on 36s with lockers? best i've heard is "it will just move the problem elsewhere"..

I've been thinking about starting a new thread with this question soley for the fact that as a DOT guy i wanna know why, how does making the road passable to only extream OHV guys benifit the general public?.. In general DOT guys are concerned with the general publics safety and mobility on county roads, NOT OHV guys..
If your response is simply rooted in selfishness, thats fine for you but public officials couldn't careless.. and yes, i helped pour concrete on the bypass, know all about it but in the eyes of the DOT the bypass may not be considdered the road..

I don't wanna sound like an obama fag, (i voted independent Phil).. or anti extreme, but as a DOT guy i strongly feel keeping the road as an OHV park will KILL the trail before my 4 sons or grandkids get to drive it, actually my oldest drove it when he was 14.... I've drove the trail enough .. i'm in this for our kids..

rat off..
Why do people keep referring to the trail as "not passable"?
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:32 AM   #118 (permalink)
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but as a DOT guy i strongly feel keeping the road as an OHV park will KILL the trail before my 4 sons or grandkids get to drive it, actually my oldest drove it when he was 14.... I've drove the trail enough .. i'm in this for our kids..

rat off..
I hope that as a DOT guy you know your job is to serve the public and not impose your personal opinions on the process.

As a OHV advocate I hope you continue your commitment to fighting for the Rubicon in what ever manner suites your personal agenda.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:51 AM   #119 (permalink)
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my question to you is if I live across the country and have spend my life dreaming of a rubicon trip, saved all my money for that big road trip and have spent years building my rig for the adventure.

does that guys opinion on the future of the rubicon matter less the then local guy who is currently wheeling the rubicon ?

To me both opinions are valued. The Rubicon is the crown Jewel of the OHV community and belongs to everybody. not a few elitist who claim it as their home turf.
It depends on who your audience is, if the trail was a federal park and the feds were making the decisions, I would argue anyone in the US would have an equal voice regarding the fed park...

But, it is my understanding, (and I could be wrong Randii, Scott or Bebe chime in??) that County DOT guys will be the making the decisions regarding this County road..

With that said Iím a CA civil DOT, Iím paid to look out for the best interests, mainly safety, of the ďgeneral publicĒ yes, but the voice of the folks of CA weigh more than the general public of the US. As a CA PE I am sworn to that..

With that reasoning, I would guess the voice of the General Public of El Do County would carry much more weight in the ears of the El Do Co. DOT then some guy in Mississippi...

Although thatís just in theory and the Rubicon is "politically" not your average road.


So to answer your question Eric, no, across the country guys voice does not carry equal weight as local guys voice in regards to local agencies decesion making.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:11 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Location: CITRUS HEIGHTS /Placerville CA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camo View Post
I hope that as a DOT guy you know your job is to serve the public and not impose your personal opinions on the process.

As a OHV advocate I hope you continue your commitment to fighting for the Rubicon in what ever manner suites your personal agenda.
In regards to Rubicon Fordyce hammers, OHV, my only personal agenda is to have our great grandkids have the same opportunities we did.. I have 3 4x4s and 6 current green stickered OHVs, nuff said.....


I will fight the fight as i hope you do also..

i'm out...
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:19 AM   #121 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FLASHLIGHTMAN View Post
I

So to answer your question Eric, no, across the country guys voice does not carry equal weight as local guys voice in regards to local agencies decesion making.
sounds to me like we need to makes sure our local agencies understand that the Rubicon is considered a treasure to people around the country and that just because the road is in their jurisdiction they need to be stewards of it for everybody.

After all it seems that Californian Department of transportation receives billions of dollars from the federal tax payer and clearly the cal DOT operates under Federal rules.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/Recovery/
http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/tpp/offices/osp/ctp.html
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:01 PM   #122 (permalink)
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...you both made very bold and misinform statements that are totally inaccurate about the Pirate4x4 reader base.
I pointed out the lack of generalization available between Pirate4x4.com users and Rubicon users. That's it, that's all, and I did not disrespect PBB or its users, I simply made quantitative statements based upon my own data... Eric, you have posted no additional facts, but rather, just kept repeating your story, as if repetition would strengthen your case. This is what passes for 'debate' in the Google age -- but facts aren't swayed by internet traffic or search engine rankings. Well-informed viewers will see their way through your smokescreen, and know that while PBB is a great place to read and advertise, it is a poor place to draw conclusions that can be generalized to fit separate polling groups, with little demographics available to link them.

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...until well after the box has been blown to cobbles.
Here you go again with more unfounded repetition. No agency has discussed 'blowing the box to cobbles' but that doesn't stop you from whoring out the concept for sensationalistic hits. I'll give you points for alliteration, but your foundation in truth is lacking.

Tell ya what, Camo... I will try to keep posting correct information, citing its source, and working to correct misinformation when I see it. You keep repeating and sensationalizing, without adding facts. You'll probably make more money with your business model, but I'll sleep better, busting my ass for public access.

Randii
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:27 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RCKRATZ View Post
Eating our own.....Of all of the "land use" types I have met through the years, Randii has always stood out to me to be a stand up guy that is looking out for all of us, and it really makes me sad to see him take such a beating in this forum for the last week. I think users, people on the pbb, sometimes forget that no matter how strong your emotion is on a bulletin board that it often times means jack chit when the real decisions are made.

I guess all that I am saying is that I just do not understand why we always beat up on the people that are fighting for us rather then the people that are fighting against us

Now if Randii is being a jackass I will be the first to call him and tell him so, but I just dont buy it knowing the guy

For the record I dont want to see the box blasted and voted so. It really isn't that hard unless you drive like a tard
This is most puzzling to me as well.

internet tard "You are not representing me!!"

land use guy "well, actually I am, and please tell me what you think"

internet tard "You want to take my freedom!!"

land use guy "well, actually I am trying to preserve your freedom, and please tell me what you think"

internet tard "You are trying to misrepresent me!!"

land use guy "well, actually i would love to represent you, and please tell me what you think"

internet tard - crickets

land use guy "Well that was a waste of my time, he did not even tell me what was wrong or how to fix it"

so please tell me what you think and how to fix it:
[email protected]
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:47 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cruzila View Post
This is most puzzling to me as well.

internet tard "You are not representing me!!"

land use guy "well, actually I am, and please tell me what you think"

internet tard "You want to take my freedom!!"

land use guy "well, actually I am trying to preserve your freedom, and please tell me what you think"

internet tard "You are trying to misrepresent me!!"

land use guy "well, actually i would love to represent you, and please tell me what you think"

internet tard - "Bacon"

land use guy "Well that was a waste of my time, he did not even tell me what was wrong or how to fix it"

so please tell me what you think and how to fix it:
[email protected]
fixed it for ya
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Old 07-30-2009, 12:51 PM   #125 (permalink)
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Am I an "Internet tard" or a "land-use guy"

"land-use tard??"
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