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View Poll Results: Do you favor opening up Little Sluice
Yes - Blast the rocks and cobble it smooth 11 2.68%
Yes - remove large rocks but leave it somewhat tough, but doable 76 18.54%
No - it wouldn't do any good at this time! 29 7.07%
No - Never - Leave the box alone! 294 71.71%
Voters: 410. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-30-2009, 05:10 PM   #151 (permalink)
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DOTs not gonna want MORE big boy boulders in their road..
uh...

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Old 07-30-2009, 05:16 PM   #152 (permalink)
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DOTs not gonna want MORE big boy boulders in their road..
The way I read it, there won't:
The Wentworth route, aka Rubicon Road is easy driving.
The current route, aka Rubicon Trail gets the boulders!
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:20 PM   #153 (permalink)
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maybe I am really stupid from all the college beer and Jack Daniels and filterless camels in the last ten years but since when is it ok to blow it up but then it's not ok to drive over it. Who is in charge of these people? I think the New American Revolution should pretty much start right there at Little Sluice.

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Old 07-30-2009, 05:26 PM   #154 (permalink)
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Just as much as I am curious about yours....

I have no such data. Common sense would lead one to conclude that an extreme 4x4 site would not have the same distribution as the population you are trying to estimate. I would expect that the "extreme" subgroup (how one defines that I have no idea)- would have a higher frequency in PBB than the population of "Rubicon Users". Add in the fact that the sample space of "PBB users" does not include people without internet & the results get skewed even more.

However, I could be wrong. That is why I asked you to provide the data that shows otherwise .
And that's really the heart of the matter, it seems impossible to even go about determining the demographics of the PBB audience in any meaningful way. You'd have to first come up with a quantifiable definition of "extreme", and then you'd have to collect data on every single user to rank them to generate a view of the distribution. Without this we really just have speculation and conjecture based on our own individual experiences and nobody can really state whether or not this poll represents the broader offroading community.

So with that said, my experience comes from the decidedly not-extreme end of Rubicon users having run the trail in a IFS truck on 32" tires. In that level of rig the Rubicon in its current state is about as difficult of a trail as is possible without risking major damage. Based on my experience this level of user (IFS 4Runners, Xterras, FJ Cruisers, etc) really doesn't spend much time at PBB since the perception is that it is a site more for "extreme" rigs, and instead they are much more likely to visit a board dedicated to their particular vehicle. This is of course just my experience, but it is based on discussions with a number of friends I wheel with and it definitely reflects my personal feelings about PBB.

Realistically I'll always have to take a bypass around Little Sluice, and I'm completely fine with that as long as the trail remains open. So it's really not a black or white issue for me of "blast the box" or not. How about we add a fifth option to the poll which is "leave it alone unless it threatens the entire trail"? The question of Little Sluice's effect on the status of the entire trail is the issue, and I don't see how a "blow it up" vs "don't blow it up" poll gives any real input on that problem.

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Old 07-30-2009, 05:30 PM   #155 (permalink)
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:45 PM   #156 (permalink)
 
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Bebe, Please clarify.

"Yes, if they did not get them on the way into the trail via Ellis or WWS (because of a weekday start), then they were counted on the way out if they came out Ellis or WWS."

"The Ellis camp is Staffed from Friday afternoon to Sunday Afternoon."

I know its a delicate subject, and the web is shiat for communication, but if I were sitting face to face, I would say to you that is an evasive and misdirectional answer.

The single biggest trail event of the year, and that data is ignored here.

You and I know the Jamboree does not start on the west, turn around, and return and leave from the direction they came. They all come in one way, and they all leave the other way.

There is a poll. It's here. There is discussion about data collection. The source and relevance of the data. 750, minimum, people just went in. A number that dwarfs the rest. What is the data collected from the Jeep Jamboree say ? Was it collected or not ? I can't imagine collecting data and not noting it was Jamboree data, or not. I don't know if the Jamboree starts at Loon or Wentworth. There web page says they start at Loon Lake. But they all went in on Thursday and Friday Morning. Did we/you/us them count 750 people ?? Yes or No, please. What was their answer ?? They could not have said "we are going to LS".

So I ask again, did the trail count include the Jeepers Jamboree ??

If the Jeepers were not counted, thats OK, because their destination is known. But back to the scope of the thread. The poll.

It probably is missing the biggest user group of the trial.

I am for good science. I am not a statistician. But somethings are obvious, to everyone.

We are at Page 7. How many people have posted up ? How many have sent an e-mail to Tom Celio at the County ?

You say you care about the trail ??

BS. Show me.
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:46 PM   #157 (permalink)
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Old 07-30-2009, 05:57 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Uzzi View Post
Bebe, Please clarify.

"Yes, if they did not get them on the way into the trail via Ellis or WWS (because of a weekday start), then they were counted on the way out if they came out Ellis or WWS."

"The Ellis camp is Staffed from Friday afternoon to Sunday Afternoon."
I don't know where they come in and go out. They go in Loon, but do they all exit Loon or Tahoe, or some Loon and some Tahoe?


I will never be cagey on purpose, incoherent typist OK, but misleading - never.

Ok let me try this.

It is the intent and purpose of the Ellis Creek Kiosk to count ALL users of the trail as long as those users drive by the Ellis Creek Kiosk sometime between Friday afternoon and Sunday afternoon.

But if a group goes in on Wednesday and comes out on Friday morning, then nope, we will not have counted them because we weren't there to count them.

Wheelers for the Wounded were counted, the work party was counted etc...

Yes, yes, yes, we are counting everybody we see.

We count them going west, we count them going east. Anyone and everyone no matter which direction they are traveling is counted.

When we stop them we ask them, have I counted you before this weekend? If they say yes, we write them down anyway and tally them as already counted so they are not counted twice.
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:00 PM   #159 (permalink)
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Why is it not legal to stay up late and party til weee hours and be noisy in the NF?

Keith, you can choose to do whatever you want while visiting the ENF, thats your decision to make. The legality of your actions are unknown to me but ponder this for a while. I'm pretty sure, at least for the moment, it is not illegal to crap in the woods. While it is not against the law I sure know of a lot of people who have made the choice not to do it for the sake of the trail. While it is not against the law to crap in the woods I can think of a beautiful place located not to far from the "Box" that was shut down because of it. Who made all this Poo? People, lot's and lot's of people. Point being, just because it is not against the law doesn't necessarily make it the right choice.



You have the right not to camp near the LS anytime you choose. If you only like Country music, are you going to go to a Metallica concert? You will probably drive to Buck Island where the country music is playing.

As I have said before. I have a choices when presented with this situation. I stay and live with the it, speak up and ask you to accept my wishes or choose to move on down the trail. That decision is mine. I respect your right to do your thing but are you so excepting of my wishes? What if the tables were reversed. You stroll in to the "Box" stumble upon a old fashioned picnic tea party the whole nine yards. Are you going to move on down to Buck Island to listen to Metallica and miss your stay at the "Box"? Sure sounds to me from your statement that If I want to enjoy the area around Spider including the "Box" I better be ready to party up and listen to some hard rock but gee wiz man thanks for letting me know it's okay for me to camp elsewhere, duly noted.







If they are using a "microscope" to watch this "sensitive" area (why is it any more sensitive than any other part of the world enviroment?), where are the FACTS that shows negative impact? What Monte showed was a totally legal act performed by a law abiding citizen. He can do that all the time AFAIAC.

When I say sensitive Keith I'm not referring to the "earth". Sorry I wasn't clear on that. I'm referring to the potential powder keg that is brewing around this area and all the attention it is receiving from the enviros and the county alike. People are watching just waiting for the right moment to land punches "Monte". Like I said just because something may be within the law doesn't necessarily make it the right thing to do. Do we really want to draw more attention to this area right now? I'm not even going to get into the negative impact issue as it will only fan the flames.



Whomever can watch me all they like. Wheeling the trail, camping, partying, loudness................... Is that really not allowed? You are telling me I cant party, make noise or stay up til the wee hours in the city or the forest?

I'm not telling you anything Keith. Do what you will that is your choice, we just all need to be aware that we are being observed from all angles and our seemingly innocent intentions and actions may have an ultimately negative impact.



So, realism is go wheeling, dont make a peep, and go to bed at 10:00pm?

Honestly, I can stay up past 10.00pm and I've been known to have a lot maybe too much fun myself. Come on by and have a beer if you run into me on the trail.

All I'm saying is this is not just about the box. This is not just about the alleged Exon Valdez size oil spills there is a bigger picture and we need to be aware of it. I don't have all the answers, I'm sure no one does but lets keep it together, respect each other and most importantly work together.
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:11 PM   #160 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Uzzi View Post

You say you care about the trail ??

BS. Show me.
You talkin' to me? (we really need a Robert DiNero )

I can assure you I will and am going all out on this, and my letter to Mr. Celio will be no less substantive than any other letter I have presented to the WB or DEIS and RTMP. Back up with as many facts as I can dig up on the Innerturd web.

Peace out............Bebe
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:21 PM   #161 (permalink)
 
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Randii,

I do not wish to discredit the people in land use leadership. Perhaps I do have some unusual perspectives and that is always a bumpy ride when it is not invited.

General Sir Archibald Murray: If you're insubordinate with me, Lawrence, I shall have you put under arrest.
Lawrence: It's my manner, sir.
Murray: Your what?
Lawrence: My manner, sir; it looks insubordinate but it isn't, really.
Murray: You know, I can't make out whether you're bloody bad-mannered or just half-witted.
Lawrence: I have the same problem, sir.
- Donald Wolfit and Peter O'Toole in Lawrence of Arabia (1962)

The interchange around the subject of Little Sluice has been a learning experience for me. Interfacing with land use has communication challenges that are difficult for me to articulate. I asked a question at the last work weekend: "where are the young people?" I asked that because without them any volunteer solution is not likely to work - land use does not have the numbers to fix the trail and fight the war. To save the Rubicon in the face of the organized opposition is war.

"Young men make wars and the virtues of war are the virtues of young men: courage and hope for the future. Then old men make the peace, and the vices of peace are the vices of old men: mistrust and caution." -Prince Feisal (Alec Guinness) in Lawrence of Arabia (1962)

I'm going to use your "project" statement (earlier today but all the way back there at post 106! - LOL) because you have much experience at being slapped around in ROC anyway - you can take it!

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To the County, 'project' is a magical word... they discourage us from calling our work weekends 'projects' -- my impression is that 'projects' require more planning, approvals, and financial tracking. The Count asked us to avoid the P-word, so we try.
Uh huh, I can understand that but why keep it a "secret"? As with anything we get immersed in - have to remember the outside folks have little idea what the "language of the deal" is inside those rooms. You did not make apparent why you are debating.

I also can see that you are skilled at fending off anything out of place in ROC - necessary there because the little things grow into big things. That doesn't work so well outside of that room though - so you get into debates with Camo over the usefulness of Pirate in determining 4X4 community opinions and me regarding "projects" and the written record of ROC. Let it go - you can't answer for the 4X4 community. If ROC demands you do then laugh at them.

"Among the maxims on Lord Naoshige's wall there was this one: "Matters of great concern should be treated lightly." Master lttei commented, "Matters of small concern should be treated seriously." Among one's affairs there should not be more than two or three matters of what one could call great concern. If these are deliberated upon during ordinary times, they can be understood. Thinking about things previously and then handling them lightly when the time comes is what this is all about." - Hagakure by Yamamoto Tsunetomo (1716) -the book was a theme in Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai (1999)

The expectation seems that we educate ourselves and adopt the established land use language. I understand the need for some of that - but that is not going to win the war. If I, a member of "age and treachery", is finding it a little frustrating to communicate - I already know how my 4 kids would feel about it. They simply will not show up. There are many lurkers here - I wonder how many will not post because they don't wish to debate their feelings/thoughts not being expressed perfectly? (fortunately, there is a poll they can vote in)

While watching the news, my 27 year old son was here and asked what the problem is with government, why things seem so difficult - I started the conversation with the best hope for his generation is that my generation will die off soon (the post WWII baby boomers). For a generation of supposed radicals, anarchists, and free thinkers - we sure became Orwellian control freaks focused on power and money. Give me Nixon back - at least it was honest audacity (but I digress).

A third front has to develop - younger wheelers have to get involved. It will be their way and it is likely going to make us older folks nervous. They do not need to conform to us - we have to conform to them. I can't start the front, however, I can offer to help when it becomes apparent - if they will even take help from the "age and treachery" crowd. I do not know how active the 20 to 30 somethings are in 4X4 clubs on the Rubicon - in my urban area get togethers happen with free flowing communication (usually text) then "spontaneous combustion". If they use the clubs then all the better. The younger crowd is already communicating, it is there all around the trail - you just have to know how to read sign.

I don't want to debate County intentions and I'm trying to not debate polling methods (I enjoyed so little of my schooling but I absolutely adored probability and statistics, however, there is nothing so unseemly as a middle aged man opening old boxes and attempting to relive his youth - LOL)
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:52 PM   #162 (permalink)
 
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Bebe, I know you know that I know you care about the trail. I meant everybody else on this stupid thread. I mean come on. This poll, by word of the author, is just that. Pirate is Pirate. It is it's own. There is nothing like it anywhere on the web. But the Pirate poll is in the same category as the entertainment on Chit Chat. Kill Kittens, etc.

I am pointing out two things, both unchallenged or refuted.

1. The trail data collected missed the largest single 4x4 event of the year on the trail. That is a fact. To present this vote, or the any other data as conclusive is misleading. To debate otherwise is discrediting to the poster.

2. After 3 days, 161 posts, and almost 300 votes, we still aint got shizlle shiat for e-mails to where it counts. My comment is directed to you, you and you. Are you going to e-mail or skweal here ??
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:57 PM   #163 (permalink)
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I meant everybody else on this stupid thread.
I care

Dunno what all this talk is about. I SOLVED the problem:

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=147

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Old 07-30-2009, 07:02 PM   #164 (permalink)
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The single biggest trail event of the year, and that data is ignored here.
I can't speak to 'here' but it is captured and counted with RTF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Uzzi View Post
Was it collected or not ?
Staff, vendors, and participants are accounted for, and their primary destination is Rubicon Springs.

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How many people have posted up ? How many have sent an e-mail to Tom Celio at the County ?
As of this morning, six.

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Old 07-30-2009, 07:04 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Bebe, I know you know that I know you care about the trail. I meant everybody else on this stupid thread. I mean come on. This poll, by word of the author, is just that. Pirate is Pirate. It is it's own. There is nothing like it anywhere on the web. But the Pirate poll is in the same category as the entertainment on Chit Chat. Kill Kittens, etc.

I am pointing out two things, both unchallenged or refuted.

1. The trail data collected missed the largest single 4x4 event of the year on the trail. That is a fact. To present this vote, or the any other data as conclusive is misleading. To debate otherwise is discrediting to the poster.

2. After 3 days, 161 posts, and almost 300 votes, we still aint got shizlle shiat for e-mails to where it counts. My comment is directed to you, you and you. Are you going to e-mail or skweal here ??
I was joking.....sheesh.

So because the event happened when we weren't able to count them, and there would be several others, then we can just call them and add them in? I think they will anyway, they need to get an accurate representation for the WB count.

I agree that without the all of the different Jambo's participant numbers, the Ellis Creek Counts will be inaccurate.

My point was that it takes time to write a substantive comment, and I'm fairly confident the letters Tom has received thus far were exactly that.

We could always fire up the letter generator, but this isn't a vote. And so goes the poll, it's interesting, but not a vote.

This board and it's resident land use leaders fought hard, and provided thousands of letters for the Tahoe and El Dorado DEIS. It's not that we can't do it...but we do have until August 12th.


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Old 07-30-2009, 07:06 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Honestly, I can stay up past 10.00pm and I've been known to have a lot maybe too much fun myself. Come on by and have a beer if you run into me on the trail.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:14 PM   #167 (permalink)
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You and I know the Jamboree does not start on the west, turn around, and return and leave from the direction they came. They all come in one way, and they all leave the other way.
I went back to Loon. But I did not go to Little Sluice, I was a wuss and went around.



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We are at Page 7. How many people have posted up ? How many have sent an e-mail to Tom Celio at the County ?
As of this PM about 20 actually. 6 was the other day or yesterday?

According to Tom all of them good.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:44 PM   #168 (permalink)
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All I'm saying is this is not just about the box. This is not just about the alleged Exon Valdez size oil spills there is a bigger picture and we need to be aware of it. I don't have all the answers, I'm sure no one does but lets keep it together, respect each other and most importantly work together.
When I eventually get to enjoy the trail again, I will for sure be happy to have a beer with ya!

Get me straight, all I am suggesting is that, partying, loudness, staying up late are not legit reasons to shut down an area. I dont like the crap that goes on once in a while. Sometimes it plain and simply drives me nuts, but the folks making noise, staying up late, partying, have every right to do that. I would never try to take away that freedom. If they pack out what they bring, leave no trace, then hoooorayyyyyy! Have at it folks.

I have run that trail more times than I can remember. Some at the LS, sometimes Buck, not any more at Spider (dangit), and the Springs. Things can get out of hand anywhere on the trail, not just the LS.

You may not know me, but let me assure you this. When I visit any trail, I pack my poop in an ammo container. I haul my trash out. My fire is not hot when I am not in camp. I stay on the trail. I help other people clean up. I try my very best to leave no trace. The same respect is displayed from the people I go with.

My previous post was to point out to some, that trying to close the shop down cuz of some loud, unsupervised, late night partiers, is not a reason for closure. If I want to run around camp screaming YEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW, and act like I am rounding up imaginary cattle, then thats what I'll do.


Lil Uzzi, would I be correct in assuming you want the rocks gone, and ONE WAY signs posted on the trail?
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:56 PM   #169 (permalink)
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DOTs not gonna want MORE big boy boulders in their road..
Taxpayers who fund DOT don't like 3 guys leaning on a shovel when they should be digging
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:14 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Don't forget the foil hats!!
I'm Ready I'll be up this weekend and I have backup hats should anyone need them.

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Old 07-30-2009, 08:18 PM   #171 (permalink)
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If I want to run around camp screaming YEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW, and act like I am rounding up imaginary cattle, then thats what I'll do.
Now that's a scary thought right there
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:48 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lance View Post
Of course I'm sure the powers that be have already made up their minds and once again will do what they please.
Seems Lance has lived here long enough to get how El Dorado Co. really works. Sad but true.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:11 PM   #173 (permalink)
 
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Lil Uzzi, would I be correct in assuming you want the rocks gone, and ONE WAY signs posted on the trail?
I want the trail to endure for the future. If that means undoing criminal acts from the past, so be it. If it turns out the rocks are ok, and the bypass is feasible, then so be it. They can stay. The bypass is available. Take it.

If the trail was one way, the vehicle erosive effect could be effectively cut in half. Your idea, not mine.

If the rocks are OK, and the legality is debatable. Why don't the rollers step out here in the light of day ? It has been said here that they are known.

Come on out.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:53 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurtuleas View Post
THEN we return gatekeeper to it's orginal status
Define original status?


Let's see this thread is about an opinion poll on the Little Sluice. My opinion is that if there is a legal bypass then why screw with it.

I don't run trails/roads like the Rubicon for the biggest baddest rocks, I've never driven the Little Sluice and I don't care too. I'm out there for the whole environment, not "just" the cheering/jeering crowds around a big obstacle.

Thanks to all the folks that are able to go to the meetings and represent!!

BTW - How many visitors does Pirate4x4 get in a month? I hear it's 1,400,000.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:55 PM   #175 (permalink)
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Ya I heard some where once it is 1,400,000....
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