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View Poll Results: Do you favor opening up Little Sluice
Yes - Blast the rocks and cobble it smooth 11 2.68%
Yes - remove large rocks but leave it somewhat tough, but doable 76 18.54%
No - it wouldn't do any good at this time! 29 7.07%
No - Never - Leave the box alone! 294 71.71%
Voters: 410. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-02-2009, 02:38 AM   #201 (permalink)
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FWIW, I acknowledge that PBB is a valid cross-section in and of itself. I ain't arguing that.

Here's another data point, FWIW ... I have ten envelopes in front of me for ten weekends Rubicon Trail Foundation (RTF) has counted at our Ellis Creek Counting Station thus far this summer. I picked one June weekend at random, and counted the destinations:
* 33 rigs: Spider / Little Sluice (29%)
* 34 rigs: Buck Island Reservoir (30%)
* 24 rigs: Tahoe (21%)
* 10 rigs: Rubicon Springs (9%)
* 01 rigs: Loon Lake (started at Tahoe) (1%)
* 02 rigs: Ellis Creek (2%)
* 09 rigs: did not specify (8%)
I'm swamped right now and can't work the numbers any further, but RTF is collecting this data and will make it public after we get it processed.

I can't correlate this data with the poll, FWIW. Both can be fully valid separately, even if they aren't tied together.

There are some cool patterns in the data -- holiday weekends, regular weekends, and midweek days have significantly different totals, patterns, and destinations. Backing out events like WFTW, JJ, and AJC helps make those patterns a little more obvious, but it is important to count those, as well. There is a lot of number-crunching ahead.

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Old 08-02-2009, 10:26 AM   #202 (permalink)
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Randii

Those are good numbers, and love it.

I know they have a survey that they use to ask those questions.

Maybe later, we could change the survey questions to include some info about how much spent to get to the trail and area, or how much spent for the whole trip to the Rubicon.

Then add some questions about the different areas that are of high concern all the time. I am not going to say add just questions about little sluice, as there is more than just little sluice on the trail that has issues that need to be mitigated.

Thanks

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Old 08-02-2009, 11:56 AM   #203 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by navy-jeepster View Post
Maybe later, we could change the survey questions...
I'm open to that on the next go-round -- I don't want to change methodology mid-stream, since RTF is almost three thousand dollars and well toward a thousand volunteer hours into this method.

For a while, I was the Plumber of the Rubicon with self-built outhouses... now I'm apparently the Pollster of the Rubicon.

The 2005 FOTR Count that I led was invaluable in helping push the Water Board back off that much-repeated but poorly-founded 35,000/year number... and this shows the importance of good metrics, tracked well.

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Old 08-02-2009, 02:44 PM   #204 (permalink)
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On a random weekend on June there is a 113 rigs on the trail?
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:54 PM   #205 (permalink)
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On a random weekend on June there is a 113 rigs on the trail?
I guess more like 113 rigs drove past the tent at Ellis... sounds like a fair number to me.

edit: and 113 rigs x2 people average? bought fuel, and beer, and groceries, and ice, and tents, and caming gear... alot of which was probly bought here in El Dorado county.

Last edited by urjb; 08-02-2009 at 02:57 PM. Reason: P.S.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:20 PM   #206 (permalink)
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On a random weekend on June there is a 113 rigs on the trail?
All I can say is that on THAT random weekend, 113 rigs drove past Ellis Creek between Friday and sunday evenings -- we haven't been able to count for Tahoe yet, unless the pass by Ellis. Different weekends have different counts (though we try to track for that, too, so that we can consider the data WITH big events and without big events) -- the weekend of WTFW shows a significant spike in Sluice/Spider traffic, and the weekend of Rubithon shows a significant spike in users going to the Springs or all the way out to Tahoe. I haven't laid eyes on the Jamboree counts, but I expect they will show a lot of staff traffic in both ways to Rubicon Springs and a majority of traffic moving east-to-west over the entire trail.

Our methodology is to count vehicles/destinations only once per trip (based on self-report). If a user reports that he's on a day trip, and he passes Ellis on the way in and out, we count him once (if he answers that this is his first survey of the trip, and we get the rest of his answers -- if he answers that he has already surveyed on this trip, then we thank him and wave him on).

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Old 08-02-2009, 03:25 PM   #207 (permalink)
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35,000 rigs a season seems like it might be a little off
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:39 PM   #208 (permalink)
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35,000 rigs a season seems like it might be a little off
Yeah, it was a garbage number repeatedly misquoted by the anti's to sell their claim that Rubicon was overloaded.

After researching in detail, we found the original report that this number das drawn from, and it turned out that the guy estimated 35,000 person use days (IIRC for 2001), not 35K vehicles. If a family of four goes 'wheeling for 3 days, that's 12 personal use days. You can see how that skews pretty quickly, especially when you count Jamboree volunteers that spend a few weeks on the trail. The anti's of course know this, but choose to paint the picture differently with that number. John dubbed them Eco-Liars and it fits sometimes!

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Old 08-02-2009, 05:18 PM   #209 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Simple Man View Post
Unless you do similar polls on Cal4, Blue Ribbon, Jeeps Unlimited, at the kiosk, Praire City, Pismo Beach, 4x4wire, etc. this poll will not mean much.

Do you even live in california? How does a guy with such an impessive back ground as such.........

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Become so one sided and negetive i have watched you complain about not being able to cmplete the trail in its entirety and then controdict your self on another thread that your reason for the change is do to rubicon errosion and human waste. Are you holding on to old memorys with your friends on the trail just like we are trying to make them. Are you really that stubborn that you cant take the bypass? And from my understanding that bypass has been there for 40 years? I dont wanna see the box go by any means but there is a solution out there besides blowing it up. Or should we excovate the whole darn thing and pave it so you and your buddys can drive it in a v dub? Ive been tought people who can ( DO) people who cant ( point fingers and whine) If you really wanna travel the whole trail so badly work your butt of to afford a rig capable thats what most of us have done.

edit: language please.....watch it

Last edited by 12 ounce curls; 08-04-2009 at 07:10 PM. Reason: sorry it got away from me lol
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:06 AM   #210 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bagman View Post
35,000 rigs a season seems like it might be a little off
35,000 rigs a season is absolute bullsnot!
Probably more like 3,500.

I use the word "snot" but in person you'd hear a few F words from me on this subject of overblown BS numbers...
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:18 AM   #211 (permalink)
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While I voted no never leave the box alone, I think that should go for the ass hats that keep pushing/winching more sh*t into it.

Last edited by randii; 09-11-2009 at 11:18 PM. Reason: language corrected
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:47 AM   #212 (permalink)
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Angry

Leave it alone! If you cant do it go around!!
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Old 08-04-2009, 08:05 AM   #213 (permalink)
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Leave it alone! If you cant do it go around!!If you spill fluids, clean them up! If you drop a duece at the sluice, pack it out!
Fixed.
It really drives me nuts that the lack of personal responsibility of the few can have such an impact on the majority.
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Old 08-04-2009, 10:27 AM   #214 (permalink)
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nice edit!!!!!!!!! luv it
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Old 08-05-2009, 12:44 AM   #215 (permalink)
 
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Notice how the total no and yes % stayed pretty close to each other during the poll taking? It is suppose to be that way. Indicates no group of people tried to stack the votes. Polling works.
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:58 AM   #216 (permalink)
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Chas

I also selected to only let people vote once.

Now, if they ran off to different computers, they could vote more than once.

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Old 08-05-2009, 11:23 AM   #217 (permalink)
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really? don't you have to be logged in to vote?
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:39 AM   #218 (permalink)
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You have to be logged in to vote and there is only one vote per Username.

I do not think it matters if you switch computers.
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Old 08-05-2009, 01:58 PM   #219 (permalink)
 
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There are many ways to attempt to hack something - don't think anyone would bother in this instance. (It is shocking how much corporate computer software was created by paid teenagers - never underestimate what they are capable of)

If people hack it, it has to be done fast or they will get caught - so what likely happens is a sudden spike one way or another in the %. That was not the case in this poll.

Todd was stating for the record what we all assume - can't vote more than once here on Pirate.

Even intelligent mischief would be within the poll error rate (I would assume it would compute to ~5%). No matter how the data is sliced, the majority here does not wish to break the rocks at the present time.
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Old 08-10-2009, 11:42 PM   #220 (permalink)
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I have not read the entire thread, and I have a truck that will never make sluice. That being said, I see no reason why a more capable vehicle group can't have a top notch challenge on the 'con. If the bypass can be made viable and acceptable to all, I say leave it, but someone's gonna have to keep a close eye on it to keep the shenanagins to a minmum.
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:04 PM   #221 (permalink)
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Here's some data for everybody!! get off the keyboard and on the trail!!! Just my 2 cents.

Matt.

August FOTR work weekend

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 22 - 23 work weekend will be here soon.
We are in the planning stages now for projects for this weekend.

Email me at todd.n.larisa at comcast.net to signup.

Looking to have about 50 people for the projects planned.
As we get closer and we have something in concrete for plans, I will post those here.

It will be from the Loon Lake, Wentworth side of the trail for planning purposes.

Camping at Airport Flat or on the trail depending on the projects.

Thanks

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Old 08-11-2009, 04:10 PM   #222 (permalink)
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I will be racing Vegas to Reno. I would love to help,but not that weekend.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MattGreenJeep View Post
Here's some data for everybody!! get off the keyboard and on the trail!!! Just my 2 cents.

Matt.

August FOTR work weekend

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

August 22 - 23 work weekend will be here soon.
We are in the planning stages now for projects for this weekend.

Email me at todd.n.larisa at comcast.net to signup.

Looking to have about 50 people for the projects planned.
As we get closer and we have something in concrete for plans, I will post those here.

It will be from the Loon Lake, Wentworth side of the trail for planning purposes.

Camping at Airport Flat or on the trail depending on the projects.

Thanks

Todd
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Old 08-12-2009, 12:55 PM   #223 (permalink)
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Dan

Thanks, and I understand that those that race have to do that. It is part of their business.
I think you guys are also stepping up later this month or next for the Little Sluice project being headed by Bebe and others. Good on ya for that. I appreciate it.

The poll has been done for a little while now, and looking at the numbers, they came out about what I thought it would.
This result is different than the one that Del started in 2003.
Different times, and different thoughts about the rigs that run the trail now.

This poll is valid in that it is a sample of the people that visit pirate.
410 people voted on this poll. This is number is higher than what voted on Del's poll in 2003. More users here now I think.

I don't have the final answer for what will happen at Little Sluice. I would not want to be the one to have to make that call either.
I do hope for the benefit of the trail, that this decision is a public process and input is taken from the users. I know FOTR and RTF will fight for the users to have their say in what happens with Little Sluice.

Todd out
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Old 08-12-2009, 02:46 PM   #224 (permalink)
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Just read this entire thread...I've been away for sometime and all I can say is WOW... We are eating ourselves now. I hope the old school/new school can compromise on these two sections of the trail and re-unite the fight in the best direction.
Personally, I lean to the new school view, but understand our history and am realistic about what the county will allow long term. But the old school croud also needs to understand that evolution of trail users is a natural part of things...and it has evolved. Don't be grumpy old men...and fyi...I'm 42
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