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-   -   New Little Sluice Poll (https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/rubicon-trail/807191-new-little-sluice-poll.html)

navy-jeepster 07-28-2009 10:38 AM

New Little Sluice Poll
 
With all the questions and concerns about Little Sluice, I thought I would start another poll for the issues about Little Sluice.

This poll will be open for a week.

Simple Man 07-28-2009 11:14 AM

Unless you do similar polls on Cal4, Blue Ribbon, Jeeps Unlimited, at the kiosk, Praire City, Pismo Beach, 4x4wire, etc. this poll will not mean much.

:jeep:

Bebe 07-28-2009 11:50 AM

You are right.

And even if there are polls on all those sites you mention, will either camp accept the results?

We will keep going round and round and round.

Will there ever really be a solution?

EDIT: For the record, IMO this poll is valid and will be useful to those who will accept the results.

navy-jeepster 07-28-2009 01:04 PM

Not sure that I agree with you Doug.
I am really only looking for user opinions here on Pirate.
I could run it on those other site too, and put all the numbers into excel to generate the charts.

But if I can get a couple of hundred users here to complete the poll, it will be representative of the users here from a confidence level of about 90 percent.

The more people that I get to take the poll, the higher the confidence level becomes.

Thanks for the comments though.

I think we will find two serious camps here that want Little Sluice made easier, and those that want it left alone.
The numbers are pretty close at the present time.

I know what I think, and what our position paper says (They match).

But from the number of posts in the Little Sluice thread, I think no matter what happens, we will have some unhappy people.

Todd

cruzila 07-28-2009 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navy-jeepster (Post 10113460)
Not sure that I agree with you Doug.
I am really only looking for user opinions here on Pirate.
I could run it on those other site too, and put all the numbers into excel to generate the charts.

But if I can get a couple of hundred users here to complete the poll, it will be representative of the users here from a confidence level of about 90 percent.

The more people that I get to take the poll, the higher the confidence level becomes.

Thanks for the comments though.

I think we will find two serious camps here that want Little Sluice made easier, and those that want it left alone.
The numbers are pretty close at the present time.

I know what I think, and what our position paper says (They match).

But from the number of posts in the Little Sluice thread, I think no matter what happens, we will have some unhappy people.

Todd

PBB user base is not representative of the user base on the Rubicon Trail by any means. A poll here will only represent those users that frequent here and happen to vote this poll.

The word we get out here has been so comprehensive that if it were the case all would be pooping in bags, never leaving the trail and new "buggy" lines would not be appearing.

"Fact is, people are pooping on the ground, new lines are still happening, people are still rolling big rocks in to the middle of the trail, and smaller rocks are being thrown off the trail." (Scott 2009)

Again, this Pirate board is not a full representation of the user base, so take it with a grain of salt. The original intent was for this to be an extention of FOTR. Many of the locals are on here. It is a place for firends to gather and be social, it has worked well to have info here on our work parties, but I miss my friends that have been overlooked because the word only goes out here.

Scott

Bebe 07-28-2009 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzila (Post 10113566)
PBB user base is not representative of the user base on the Rubicon Trail by any means. A poll here will only represent those users that frequent here and happen to vote this poll.

The word we get out here has been so comprehensive that if it were the case all would be pooping in bags, never leaving the trail and new "buggy" lines would not be appearing.

"Fact is, people are pooping on the ground, new lines are still happening, people are still rolling big rocks in to the middle of the trail, and smaller rocks are being thrown off the trail." (Scott 2009)

Again, this Pirate board is not a full representation of the user base, so take it with a grain of salt. The original intent was for this to be an extention of FOTR. Many of the locals are on here. It is a place for firends to gather and be social, it has worked well to have info here on our work parties, but I miss my friends that have been overlooked because the word only goes out here.

Scott

Well that's it for me.....I am officially pissed.:mad3:

UGET IT 07-28-2009 02:23 PM

Ahhmmm What????

camo 07-28-2009 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruzila (Post 10113566)
PBB user base is not representative of the user base on the Rubicon Trail by any means. A poll here will only represent those users that frequent here and happen to vote this poll.

.

Scott


I am willing to wager that you will find more Rubicon trail users here on Pirate4x4 then any other single media publication period.

with 1,400,000 visits to Pirate4x4 each and every month the cross section of users is vast.

randii 07-28-2009 02:47 PM

I don't think what Scott said should piss anyone off... he's simply saying that Pirate4x4.com's viewers are only a portion of the Rubicon Trail users. Remember -- roughly one-fifth of all U.S. households are disconnected from the Internet and have never used e-mail, and nearly one out of three household heads has never used a computer to create a document (http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...ent_email.html). Even those that are online may not come to Pirate4x4.com, and look at the popularity of Chit-Chat -- many who come to Pirate4x4 rarely venture out of there!

While it is certainly fair to poll here, the result is a snapshot of a subset of the greater whole, and that's well bourne out by informational contacts on the trail, where many people do not know what Pirate4x4.com really is.

I appreciate the megaphone that Pirate4x4.com provides to reach the trail users that we do reach, but I agree with Scott that there are many other users we still need to reach to with brochures, signs, and outreach.

Kudos to Todd for starting a poll here -- let's see what it says, but remember that it represents an important but incomplete slice of the greater pie.

Randii

Sirg2424 07-28-2009 02:53 PM

navy-jeepster I voted here on your poll. The PBB is the only spot I read for upcoming events, news, and etc, about the Con. As for the other website's, I have no interest in them for the reason that I don't have time to read everything out there, nor do I want to register myself on every frigin website that has important info about the Con.

One of the biggest reason's why people don't know about stuff like this or about whats going on with the Rubicon is because the information is so spread out, it hard to keep up with. If everything was in one central spot about the Rubicon, it would help with the fight, but as long as it disorganized, people will still not know.

Anyways good luck with the poll, and I hope I made since there, now back to my cave!

navy-jeepster 07-28-2009 03:03 PM

I was only trying to look at the small subset of users here for data.
If I wanted to increase the data points, I would spend a summer on the trail at the trail heads asking questions of the users.

to maybe increase some of the data points on the poll that I started, I can put a link in chit-chat.
But from a statistical analysis standpoint, I do not need every user to take the poll. One of the beauties of running a poll.

I can dig back into my stat's book and figure out how many people should take the poll to give us a good confidence level of opinions.

Little Sluice has become a hot bed of discussion lately here. A lot of poeple have their own opinions on what should be done. I know we will not please everyone when a final decision is made. But I think having more info, and data to help make that decision is better for us when we in FOTR and all involved have to make that decision.
I am withholding judgement on anything concerning Little Sluice at this time.
I still standby my view in the position statement.

Not intended to piss anyone off, but like mentioned above, this is a hot topic and many people are spending a lot of time on this topic. This is taking away from making decisions on what work to get done during the August work weekend.

I will have a preliminary plan of work areas later this week. Thanks Randii for the list from you that you pulled from the CGS list.

Thanks everyone.

Todd

randii 07-28-2009 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camo (Post 10114001)
I am willing to wager that you will find more Rubicon trail users here on Pirate4x4 then any other single media publication period.

I won't take that bet. :p The TOTAL numbers don't lie, but trail users are indeed sprinkled amongst many pubs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by camo (Post 10114001)
with 1,400,000 visits to Pirate4x4 each and every month the cross section of users is vast.

The cross-section is vast, but I don't believe it is adequately representative of actual Rubicon Trail users.

Still, let's see what this new poll says... the last one surprised me in that the largest faction favored removing large rocks, and leaving it somewhat tuff, but doable (https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269293). Only 182 folks voted in 2004, which was a tiny fraction of PBB users back then, and 182 is less than 15% of the 2004 Jamboree paid participants and crew. That 200 poll left a lot of PBB users uncounted, and a clear majority of trail users uncounted -- it seems a stretch to assume that the 2004 poll sampled a representative cross-section PBB users or trail users.

I mean no disrespect, and I fully appreciate this Rubicon Trail forum, but it is tough to generalize from this subset to the actual users on the trail.

Randii

randii 07-28-2009 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navy-jeepster (Post 10114071)
to maybe increase some of the data points on the poll that I started, I can put a link in chit-chat.

Todd, you know full well that a poll is only as good as its sampling -- and that the size of the sampling is less important than the make-up if that sample. If you're going to put a link anywhere, but it in some of Pirate4x4's 4-wheeling forums and not General Chit Chat.

I'm open to seeing what this poll says, but I'm questioning how globally-applicable the poll will be. That's all.

I look forward to working with you again on the ground in August -- that's the magic of FOTR's loose coalition: individuals and organizations with conflicting opinions can still come together and work together on projects that clearly benefit the Rubicon Trail -- we need to be careful NEVER to loose sight of that, even if pisstivity creeps into other exchanges.

Randii

Sirg2424 07-28-2009 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randii (Post 10114100)
Still, let's see what this new poll says... the last one surprised me in that the largest faction favored removing large rocks, and leaving it somewhat tuff, but doable (https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269293). Only 182 folks voted in 2004, which was a tiny fraction of PBB users back then, and 182 is less than 15% of the 2004 Jamboree paid participants and crew. That 200 poll left a lot of PBB users uncounted, and a clear majority of trail users uncounted -- it seems a stretch to assume that the 2004 poll sampled a representative cross-section PBB users or trail users. Randii

Well maybe the PBB needs to use the power of the fourms here and send a email out to all PBB members adressing this topic, and asking them to kindly vote and pass the word along. Just a idea.

UGET IT 07-28-2009 03:22 PM

Other ten polling here and in Rags where do you poll them or arrive at numbers??

randii 07-28-2009 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirg2424 (Post 10114123)
Well maybe the PBB needs to use the power of the fourms here and send a email out to all PBB members adressing this topic, and asking them to kindly vote and pass the word along.

That would be a way to get a higher participation from PBB folks in this poll, but I'm still not convinced that this would get a more representative sampling of actual trail users.

Frankly, if Pirate4x4.com elects to blast an email to users, I'm hoping it asks open-ended questions and encourages users to email the Deputy Director of DOT ([email protected]) with specific comments and suggestions.

Randii

Bebe 07-28-2009 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randii (Post 10114100)
Still, let's see what this new poll says... the last one surprised me in that the largest faction favored removing large rocks, and leaving it somewhat tuff, but doable (https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=269293).
Randii

Or you could say 92 voted yes to altering the box, and 90 voted no to altering the box.

EDIT: thats about 50-50, how is that not representative of all Rubicon Users?

2003 was 6 years ago, a lot has changed in 6 years, or should I say "The more things change the more they remain the same"?

We'll see.

camo 07-28-2009 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randii (Post 10114100)

The cross-section is vast, but I don't believe it is adequately representative of actual Rubicon Trail users.


Randii


what group of Rubicon trail users do you feel are not being represented on Pirate4x4 ? obviously we do not reach the 20% of households that do not have internet.

break it down for me by group subset as I am not seeing your point clearly.

camo 07-28-2009 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randii (Post 10114219)
Frankly, if Pirate4x4.com elects to blast an email to users,

Randii

we have no intentions of doing an email blast at this time. as a matter of fact in the history of pirate4x4 I only recall every doing 2 email blasts. we just don't believe in spamming people and are reluctant to do so.

randii 07-28-2009 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by camo (Post 10114223)
what group of Rubicon trail users do you feel are not being represented on Pirate4x4?

I talk to a lot of people on the trail, Eric... many of them do not visit Pirate4x4.com. Some groups are simpler to identify than others -- many of the outfitters' staff and customers (JJ, JJUSA, MASOR, Harald, Tahoe Adventures) do not participate here, but theirs is a well-documented, non-trivial slice of trail traffic. Other groups are harder to generalize, but spend some time polling on the trail, and there's no doubt that they are there ingreat numbers.

PBB is a great resource, and I appreciate it, but any casual poll of trail users results in a significant number of users that don't know FOTR, RTF, or PBB... it is what it is. That doesn't reflect poorly on FOTR, RTF, or PBB -- rather, it just underlines that we need to keep working to get the word out.

I'm not trying to slam PBB or piss of anyone -- just pointing out that PBB's unique place online doesn't map exactly to the full distribution of Rubicon Trail users.

Randii

fermentor 07-28-2009 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randii (Post 10114219)
That would be a way to get a higher participation from PBB folks in this poll, but I'm still not convinced that this would get a more representative sampling of actual trail users.

I agree. What is the value of an opinion from someone in Cleveland that will never see the trail?

Who are the actual stakeholders? Wouldn't the first source be the Rubicon forum, home to folks who are interested and involved? As Scott mentioned, that is the primary recruiting venue for volunteer labor for FOTR work parties. Certainly they should have a voice. Maybe an email blast to FOTR mailing list?

I don't know how you could contact people who may want to weigh in if they are not already involved, unless you polled Jamboree participants who have enjoyed the trail at least once. And should those be considered users or tourists?

camo 07-28-2009 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randii (Post 10114402)
-- many of the outfitters' staff and customers (JJ, JJUSA, MASOR, Harald, Tahoe Adventures) do not participate here,

Randii

I will argue the exact opposite. Those commercial outfitters draw their cliental from the wheeling community at large who is represented here in large numbers.


and I know for a fact that every one of those commercial outfitters has a staff member who reads pirate4x4 on a regular basis.

WLDWUN 07-28-2009 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UGET IT (Post 10114141)
Other ten polling here and in Rags where do you poll them or arrive at numbers??

Since RTF is doing trail counts every weekend to start with, and this subject seems to be a hot topic with everyone, why not actually poll the people on the trail for a few weekends?

Get to the people that wheel the trail, not those that can wheel a keyboard.

camo 07-28-2009 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fermentor (Post 10114429)
I agree. What is the value of an opinion from someone in Cleveland that will never see the trail?


the value of somebody in clevlands opinion is exactly the same as anybody else's from around the country.

The Rubicon trail is a national treasure and is there for the enjoyment of anybody and everybody. If the Rubicon trail only held local appeal then it certainly would not be such a hot topic on the national level.

People from every state in the Union and in fact from around the world spent alot of time effort and money making the Rubicon trail a life long goal and destination. They deserve an opinion on what happens to the trail as much as the locals.

Bebe 07-28-2009 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WLDWUN (Post 10114575)
Since RTF is doing trail counts every weekend to start with, and this subject seems to be a hot topic with everyone, why not actually poll the people on the trail for a few weekends?

Get to the people that wheel the trail, not those that can wheel a keyboard.

There is a destination question already on the form. The counts I have from Memorial day show well over 80% were headed to Little Sluice that weekend.

What does that mean exactly? Dunno.


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