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Old 08-03-2009, 07:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Let's really talk about the box.......

Hate me forever , I don't care.................I'm sick of the the self righteous SOB's that talk a good line and don't follow through in deed(s).
I walked the box Sunday morning with an RTF member that will go unnamed at this time. I picked up tail lamp lens remnants, varoious broken parts, small garbage and cigarette butts. I then noticed the COPIOUS AMOUNT OF CONTAMINATED SOIL at the base of the box, down in and under the rocks....Aww Crap , everywhere
Gawddammit, people, read the sign at the Kiosk........we are under a cleanup and abatement order. Water samples are going to be and have been taken.
I will be going up PERSONALLY on the weekend of Aug. 15/16 to remove the contaminated soil from the 250 +/- ft of the box which I speak of...........Those of you who DID NOT use your spill kits can show if you want, as this would be mighty white of you
For the 400+ spill containment kits I've personally handed out this year , I find what I have observed unacceptable!
WTF? If this is the best we can do as a whole , than I say reduce it to rubble.
Sorry, everybody, but to preserve our presence in the future, we need to not repeat the past. In other words , we need to educate and correct those who continually ruin our collective efforts to continue to responsibly enjoy our pastime.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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they ones that don't clean up or care, won't give a hoot when the trail is gone, they will move on & not look back, they don't care.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Which is exactly why we need a Trail Patrol dedicated to the box.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:22 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Which is exactly why we need a Trail Patrol dedicated to the box.
we need someone with a night stick who ain't got fear of usin it.....
.
.here he is
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:30 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:38 PM   #6 (permalink)
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i'm a more mild user and although i've spectated at the box i've never ran it. i do use the trail alot and i do agree that it has been a 'yahoo' magnet. i don't think it should be blown up but we should maintain the area.

as far as enforcement; not that i wouldn't say something to said irresponsible individuals but unfortunatley those types (the 'yahoos') get all hostile and in your face thinkin that someones tryin to tell them what to do. their drunkeness never helps, its happened to me before. i just think those people will never listen to anyone. especially me since i'm pretty young and look even younger, they just have no respect.
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:49 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hasn't Jamboree been going on for the last two weekends
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Old 08-03-2009, 09:55 PM   #8 (permalink)
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as far as enforcement; not that i wouldn't say something to said irresponsible individuals but unfortunatley those types (the 'yahoos') get all hostile and in your face thinkin that someones tryin to tell them what to do. their drunkeness never helps, its happened to me before. i just think those people will never listen to anyone. especially me since i'm pretty young and look even younger, they just have no respect.
See another thread on this. There's plenty big boys willing to back you up out there.

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Hasn't Jamboree been going on for the last two weekends
Yes it has. And the trail has been "closed to the public" the entire time.
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:11 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Which is exactly why we need a Trail Patrol dedicated to the box.

Ya, we need a bunch of want-to-be self serving cops. Put the box back the way it was before the boulders were pulled in and let the "Yahoo's" go away! Stop hugging the problem and blow it up! They are not worth the BS!
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:12 PM   #10 (permalink)
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See another thread on this. There's plenty big boys willing to back you up out there.



Yes it has. And the trail has been "closed to the public" the entire time.
it's not closed at all hours.....this has been beat to death
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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it's not closed at all hours.....this has been beat to death
I know that. But when you consider a standard trip with multiple rigs that plan a weekend of wheeling the Rubicon, they would NOT pick this timeframe.

The people that you'll find using it "off hours" are usually locals or solos on a whim.

We don't need another ten page thread, I'm not looking to argue, I simply answered his question for the SPIRIT of it, not the technical aspect.

Let's just all send our emails to Tom and attend the meeting in Placerville. Then we can come home and talk up another storm here.
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:12 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Ya, we need a bunch of want-to-be self serving cops. Put the box back the way it was before the boulders were pulled in and let the "Yahoo's" go away! Stop hugging the problem and blow it up! They are not worth the BS!
We've had and still do have trail patrol on the Rubicon. They are also trained in how to approach folks, when and how to engage, when not to engage, what to do about it and how to avoid confrontation.
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:24 PM   #13 (permalink)
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See another thread on this. There's plenty big boys willing to back you up out there.
Are these the same guys who know who pulled in the big rocks, but won't admit who? It ain't all fuzzy puppies and pretty buttercups in our hobby...
Luckily MOST users are responsible, but we have opportunity to develop a better sense of community, still.

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Yes it has. And the trail has been "closed to the public" the entire time.
The parade permit is limited duration during certain hours of certain days only, and there is plenty of opportunity for other users to work around those restrictions, if they take time to figure out the rules.

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Old 08-04-2009, 12:21 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I say reduce it to rubble.
Sorry, everybody, but to preserve our presence in the future, we need to not repeat the past. In other words , we need to educate and correct those who continually ruin our collective efforts to continue to responsibly enjoy our pastime.
I would not want to see the 'box reduced to rubble. That being said, I think some people need to start seeing the Rubicon Trail as a 'Trail' and not an 'OHV Park'.

I use the Rubicon Trail to camp/fish/hike/wheel while on the way from Wentworth Springs or Loon Lake to Tahoe, but I understand that there are lots of other users who just like to go up to the little sluice to play. I don't have a problem with that, just please respect the trail and the rights of everyone else to continue to enjoy it in a responsible manner.

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Old 08-04-2009, 10:36 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Are these the same guys who know who pulled in the big rocks, but won't admit who? It ain't all fuzzy puppies and pretty buttercups in our hobby...
Luckily MOST users are responsible, but we have opportunity to develop a better sense of community, still.


The parade permit is limited duration during certain hours of certain days only, and there is plenty of opportunity for other users to work around those restrictions, if they take time to figure out the rules.

Randii


Huh............ What would even happen now if we knew who those people were 10 years ago or 8 or whatever....
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:29 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Kevin, I am fairly sure "we" or someone knew then who it was. The difference from then to now is not much. When a plan is in place for the Little Sluice area, that will certainly change.

I have happened by when I witnessed a fairly mild looking rig driving up the side, just downhill from Toyota rock, back when the were bushes and a 2 foot layer of rock that is now gone. Pretty sure you know the guy even.

The conversation I had with him was not effective. If I had pushed it, I would most likely had a fight on my hands.

Our users are not in a position to handle that. I, and I think the Directors of Rubicon Trail Foundation are not willing to put "any" person representing Trail Patrol in that situation.

Forest Rangers are specifically instructed to not get in to those situations.

Sheriffs may not be willing to go in to that kind of a situation without backup.

That is a sticky wicket.

These problems and more need to be addressed in the focus group put together by DOT. Failing that, I see major change in the area. Maybe even major change regardless.

Does that mean dynomite? Don't know. The one thing that is clear to me is that change is coming. I hope that the users can step up their game and make that change on their own, personal responsibility, failing that, for success, there has to be change.

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Old 08-04-2009, 11:50 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Our users are not in a position to handle that. I, and I think the Directors of Rubicon Trail Foundation are not willing to put "any" person representing Trail Patrol in that situation.

Scott


I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you now saying that RTF will not support a trail patrol for Little Sluice? But it's ok for the rest of the trail?

Trail Patrol was specifically trained to handle these situations... were you not there? I'm pretty sure you were. I could be wrong.

Lets try setting this up for success instead of dooming it to failure.

OK Scott?
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Kevin, I am fairly sure "we" or someone knew then who it was. The difference from then to now is not much. When a plan is in place for the Little Sluice area, that will certainly change.

I have happened by when I witnessed a fairly mild looking rig driving up the side, just downhill from Toyota rock, back when the were bushes and a 2 foot layer of rock that is now gone. Pretty sure you know the guy even.

The conversation I had with him was not effective. If I had pushed it, I would most likely had a fight on my hands.

Our users are not in a position to handle that. I, and I think the Directors of Rubicon Trail Foundation are not willing to put "any" person representing Trail Patrol in that situation.

Forest Rangers are specifically instructed to not get in to those situations.

Sheriffs may not be willing to go in to that kind of a situation without backup.

That is a sticky wicket.

These problems and more need to be addressed in the focus group put together by DOT. Failing that, I see major change in the area. Maybe even major change regardless.

Does that mean dynomite? Don't know. The one thing that is clear to me is that change is coming. I hope that the users can step up their game and make that change on their own, personal responsibility, failing that, for success, there has to be change.

Scott
Scott I almost fully agree with you on "Change is coming" I have smelled it in the air for along time. That is why I changed years ago back to a street rig and not a Box Crusher anymore.

The days of then Rubicon Trail supproting a 53" Mich or 49" Iroked rig are numbered. Anyone that thinks different is smoking crack. Do I like it NO..is it going to happen YOU BET.

I am pretty sure my Dad had a part in the 1st Rocks coming into the box........shoot I remember watching Gilligans dad winch to the Sequiea tree on top.............. However my Dad is way since passed and so have those events. I just do not get the continued path to finding the parties responsible from 8-10-12 years ago.

I personnaly know of no rock pulling into the box since that time.........Gawd what was that 10 years ago???

What say you
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Old 08-04-2009, 11:58 AM   #19 (permalink)
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"I have happened by when I witnessed a fairly mild looking rig driving up the side, just downhill from Toyota rock, back when the were bushes and a 2 foot layer of rock that is now gone. Pretty sure you know the guy even." Maybe who is he???.....I really have no idea?

What is the relevence to this statement and how long ago was that..............??? when the bushes were there........

There was'nt even Trail Patrol nor RTF or FOTR in those days............I am not getting the back tracking at all.

Doug does this allot too and it confuses me and eventually ticks me off.

Wea re in the current and from my experience allot has changed for the better up at Lil Sluice. Yes we still have renagades and some party folks & trash but for the most part that area has completely changed.

Long gone are the Disco Ball night's till 5am, people passed out, 500 people at a POR Cleanup blah blah blah.............

Agree?
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Bebe;10141621]I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you now saying that RTF will not support a trail patrol for Little Sluice? But it's ok for the rest of the trail?

Please quote in full context. Scott said:
Quote:
If I had pushed it, I would most likely had a fight on my hands.
Our users are not in a position to handle that. I, and I think the Directors of Rubicon Trail Foundation are not willing to put "any" person representing Trail Patrol in that situation.
* First sentence: had Scott pushed any further, he thinks there would have been a fight.
* Second sentence: Scott doesn't think our users should get into fights.
* Third Sentence: RTF doesn't want Trail Patrol to get into fights.
I know this is an emotionally charged isse, but we've gotta be careful not to read too much into words and make assumptions of each other.

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Trail Patrol was specifically trained to handle these situations...
Yes -- we train specifically for education and not enforcement. Retreat is what is advised when conflict presents -- Trail Patrol can't get in fights, because the liability is akiller (potentially in so many words). If we advise folks to fight and get hurt, then we're liable -- if they hurt someone else, then we're liable. This is a lose-lose issue.

We can and will supporr increased Trail Patrol on the trail, and specifically at Little Sluice. Rubicon Trail already has our money where our mouth is, with Mid Trail Staff stationed near Spider and Buck, and a committed focus to spending a significant amount of time near Little Sluice. This is central to our 2009/2010 grant progam, but beyond that, volunteers can and should do even more... let's work together to get it done.

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Old 08-04-2009, 12:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I personally don't have one problem with approaching peeps performing poor trail use choices. I have never once ever had the feeling a fight would insue. It is 99% of the time a harmless situation. Inform politely, be stern but courteous and it does the trick.

Put up some signs, lead by example (gee, I'm one to talk ), get the spill kits out. I think it will work out
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Old 08-04-2009, 01:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I like the long-talked-about idea to take pix and publicly shame bad conduct. But then the antis get that and its flipped around suggesting all drivers do that. Too bad, because peer pressure is a great motivator. Even for those that don't care. I like the idea of someone stationed at LS during peak times to 'educate', but lacking any enforcement powers means the bad driver can ignore that. Can't the rangers cite for enviro damage if a spill is ignored?

Or make the trail west to east only, thereby eliminating the in and out lure of LS, but that also is problematic.

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Old 08-04-2009, 02:10 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Close the box on Saturdays when the local drunks come out to act like idoits J/K I'm not saying they are the only one's causing problems, but they are a large part. I drive 700 miles every year to run the trail. Every year I try the box. If I don't make it with 1 or 2 good tries I move on. I don't sit there with my tires smoking just to please the crowd of people standing around. But everytime I'm there I see a local getting crazy in the box.
It just comes down to common sense and there are just to many of us that lack common sense.
I'm not bagging on the locals you are the reason I'm still able to use this trail.
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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A bit off topic, but I do miss camping down closer to the lake - any chance of that ever coming back? I also miss parking on the sand and camping at the back of loon, exploring the slabs, the lower route past loon, etc etc etc. We've had to give up a lot and it seems to only concentrate the impact

I have been rigless and life has taken other priorities, how about a recent picture of the box (been two years atleast since I have been there).
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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A bit off topic, but I do miss camping down closer to the lake - any chance of that ever coming back?
You can still CAMP down by the lake, you just can't DRIVE there... which for most of means that we don't camp there. As for opening it back up, that would take approval from the Forest Service who owns the West side of the lake, or the Rubicon Trail Partnership, who owns the East side of the lake. I'm not sure anyone has officially asked, but IMHO, getting a better situation in place near Little Sluice is a prerequisite for either owner to consider re-opening the area.

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I also miss parking on the sand and camping at the back of loon, exploring the slabs, the lower route past loon, etc etc etc. We've had to give up a lot and it seems to only concentrate the impact.
I miss the old stuff on the North end of Pleasant Lake, as well -- that's another sterling example of an agency setting us up for failure, and us walking right into it. When USFS closed the meadow/shoreline, they didn't make an effort with education or permanent signage, so people kept using the routes down to the water, unaware that USFS was documenting them for closure. We're not always set up for success by the agencies, which is why we need to try even harder to educate each other...

Plenty of recent pix of LS here -- old ones, as well:
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=806026
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=805628

Randii
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