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Old 07-21-2010, 11:39 AM   #226 (permalink)
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you've been on the trail since 84, i can't imagine looking through your eyes to see what has transformed. i'm another one of the newer younger wheelers. but over the last 8 years i've grown alot in my experiences
I have had the good fortune lately to spend time with a man that has been on the trail since the 1940's. When you look at a map of the greater area and see names like Red Star and Cheese Camp, he can tell you about what happened there and how many hundreds of people were in those locations working. Does anyone remember a 2 story hotel in the meadow where Hell Hole reservoir is?

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Old 07-21-2010, 09:20 PM   #227 (permalink)
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I have had the good fortune lately to spend time with a man that has been on the trail since the 1940's. When you look at a map of the greater area and see names like Red Star and Cheese Camp, he can tell you about what happened there and how many hundreds of people were in those locations working. Does anyone remember a 2 story hotel in the meadow where Hell Hole reservoir is?

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He will probably tell you of times when he was on the trail on a weekend and saw not a single person. My grandfather, Clyde Bishop was also a great historian for the area, along with the other families that built cabins at Murry Camp. The Blairs, (Old Blair Lumber in Pville), The Baughmans and Serpas all had great stories about the Rubicon and other less travelled trails in the area. Great website to visit for history of the area is Gerlecreek.com.
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Old 07-23-2010, 04:27 PM   #228 (permalink)
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I have nothing but good things to say about the El Dorado LEO's they have courteous and given gracious warning in instances where citations were probably warranted due to misc license plate issues, passenger with OC or other more minor infractions (shattered windshield) They have never been rude nor inconsiderate and always a pleasure to talk to. More than anything they always are there more for education and presence.




The FS on the other hand appears to possibly be on a witch hunt, possibly with alterior motives? or just compiling a file of citations to justify the increased presence and patrols.

So what i have seen the last few years .... 24 months since the el dorado NF road plan started being implemented was a heavy increase in the FS personnel being present on the trails and a noticable uptick in tickets being written by thier LEA's. Examples on Fordyce coming out at comittee last year and two years ago twice i have run into rangers at the top of the hill above Fordyce lake, checking registrations, looking for DUI's and writing fix it tickets for license plate infractions (that is just what i saw being written while they were checking me. There also was a DUI check point on the tahoe side last year IIRC. And on Barrett last year I was told by the group ahead of us that two rangers hiking at 8am on a Saturday at the rock garden section of the trail in had written several OC tickets to passengers of vehicles who were listening to the radio and watching vehicles from the passenger seat and back seat in vehicles that lacked drivers. We experienced the Rangers coming in the next morning at the lake at 9 am checking fire permits, and looking over vehicles in out group making sure we were all properly licensed. They are strict, did not have a sense of humor and definitely were looking for an excuse to write a citation, the group next to us received a windshield crack citation, mud flap and an exhaust over 24" citation. So they are pulling out the book and reading the riot act when they feel inclined.

This year there has been a significant FS personnel presence on Rubicon and at other camp areas. Checking vehicles and becoming very proactive about alcohol abuse on the un-maintained roads. they are hiking in to keep thier profile low and letting people know that the forest is no longer a lawless enclave.



Word to the Wise

Take the keys out of the ignition and toss them on the floor, grab the beer out of the cooler then walk away from your vehicle.

make sure your vehicle would pass a glancing inspection. I have never had an issue but it appears they are much more anal about vehicular infractions than any other LEA and therefor we all need to be aware and carrying proper paper work

Don't drive a rig that looks like termites holding hands you are probably inviting a little more inquiry than what you otherwise would receive.

Keep the music down and make sure the group are running with knows how to watch their ps & qs otherwise one bad apple draws you all in for a little more discussion and closer look



We have only ourselves to blame, too little too late now we have to Dot our T's and cross our I's. My rig is street legal, flares, height, plates and lights, I cant remember the last time i was hassled by a LEO for a vehicular infraction but we all need to know games up. Johnny law is here, making himself known and is not bending the rules anymore. Even more, this isnt just limited to the Rubicon the presence and citations are trickling into the once considered more secluded trails (since in the last 2 years i and others have seen a trickling in of more checkpoints and citations on Fordyce and on Barrett but they have still been few and far between).
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:36 PM   #229 (permalink)
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I came off the con the thursday evening just before july 4th. I got pulled over for a broken tail light and no head light the cop was kinda being a dick about my tail light that was broken on the con I pulled a piece of the tail light out of the back of my 4runner and showed him it and told him that I just came off the con and thats where it broke at. he gave me a hard time about both the head light and tail light, then let me go all in all if you have all your paper work and tags up to date and are cool with them they tell you to have a nice day and leave like most cops they like to profile and harass. but in the long run they are doing their job and if you are cool with them they dont really care that you have 30 empty beer cans all over the back of your wheeler as long as your not drinking and driving. it may be nice to drink and drive on the con but its pretty dangerous and pretty stupid and not worth the extra harassment and d.u.i's.
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:42 AM   #230 (permalink)
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let me first off say that i love the rubicon, and have bean enjoying this great trail for the past 8 years. i love how clean the trail is starting to become, and respect the effort of the four wheel community to try and preserve the rubicon and this sport. with that said, i cant believe the pussy mentality i have read for the most part on this page. i ran into 6 different uniformed officials last time i went up. some were very nice, some just ok. there presences its self was disappointing. this is the very reason i built a vehicle that can go were only a select few can go. why do you guys advocate being watched, and policed at every corner of your life. we are turning into a society of weenie little mommas boys. why cant every one take care of themselves and each-other on the trail. in the past 8 years i have sean hard working americans enjoying one of the best parts of this great state. who am i to say what way they enjoy it. if you don't like the music till 4 in the morning at the box, don't camp there. i can understand that some guy got pissed because some drunk dude ran into his truck, but handle the situation yourself. we are all big boys here. from my experience i think they four wheeling community has enough respect to give each-other a little elbow room without having the law fallow me into the forest.
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:52 AM   #231 (permalink)
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let me first off say that i love the rubicon, and have bean enjoying this great trail for the past 8 years. i love how clean the trail is starting to become, and respect the effort of the four wheel community to try and preserve the rubicon and this sport. with that said, i cant believe the pussy mentality i have read for the most part on this page. i ran into 6 different uniformed officials last time i went up. some were very nice, some just ok. there presences its self was disappointing. this is the very reason i built a vehicle that can go were only a select few can go. why do you guys advocate being watched, and policed at every corner of your life. we are turning into a society of weenie little mommas boys. why cant every one take care of themselves and each-other on the trail. in the past 8 years i have sean hard working americans enjoying one of the best parts of this great state. who am i to say what way they enjoy it. if you don't like the music till 4 in the morning at the box, don't camp there. i can understand that some guy got pissed because some drunk dude ran into his truck, but handle the situation yourself. we are all big boys here. from my experience i think they four wheeling community has enough respect to give each-other a little elbow room without having the law fallow me into the forest.
I don't think you see the big picture in keeping the rubicon open.. We as wheelers are not the only people who are up there watching what is going on.. The loud music is not just at the box and the drinking driving is rampant.. The disrespect people are showing for others a all time high if you ask me.. It is not about folks being able to handle themselves or not anymore.. It is about keeping the trail open.
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:52 AM   #232 (permalink)
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let me first off say that i love the rubicon, and have bean enjoying this great trail for the past 8 years. i love how clean the trail is starting to become, and respect the effort of the four wheel community to try and preserve the rubicon and this sport. with that said, i cant believe the pussy mentality i have read for the most part on this page. i ran into 6 different uniformed officials last time i went up. some were very nice, some just ok. there presences its self was disappointing. this is the very reason i built a vehicle that can go were only a select few can go. why do you guys advocate being watched, and policed at every corner of your life. we are turning into a society of weenie little mommas boys. why cant every one take care of themselves and each-other on the trail. in the past 8 years i have sean hard working americans enjoying one of the best parts of this great state. who am i to say what way they enjoy it. if you don't like the music till 4 in the morning at the box, don't camp there. i can understand that some guy got pissed because some drunk dude ran into his truck, but handle the situation yourself. we are all big boys here. from my experience i think they four wheeling community has enough respect to give each-other a little elbow room without having the law fallow me into the forest.
if people could take care of themselves, the LAW wouldn't be up there.
people act like kids & this is result.
too late to say "what if"
people didn't want to listen 10 years ago, this is end result
does no good to complain now, it's too late
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:07 PM   #233 (permalink)
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with that said, i cant believe the pussy mentality i have read for the most part on this page. i ran into 6 different uniformed officials last time i went up. some were very nice, some just ok. there presences its self was disappointing.
Yes, thier presences is diappointing, but needed.
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this is the very reason i built a vehicle that can go were only a select few can go.
It is not that select any more. Anyone can buy a rig and run the 'Con', he!!, the Jeep Rubicon is built to run the 'Con' off the showroom floor and does. Plus, there are more then a few of us out there. Don't forget the quads, motorbikes, and the hikers of the world.
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why do you guys advocate being watched, and policed at every corner of your life. we are turning into a society of weenie little mommas boys. why cant every one take care of themselves and each-other on the trail.
Don't advocate being watched, just realized it is a necessary evil. This is a result of us "taking care" of ourselfs. SeaBass44 is right, if people would have listen 5, 10, 15 years ago we would not be here.
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if you don't like the music till 4 in the morning at the box, don't camp there.
OK, question for you. Why does someone have to play loud music at 4 in the morning? That is why 'I' go into the mountains, the peace and quit. Why can't the music be played some place else and let me camp at Spider?
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from my experience i think they four wheeling community has enough respect to give each-other a little elbow room without having the law fallow me into the forest.
Most do, but there are those who don't. There are many storys of @ss hats that don't respect others or thier belongs. There have been fights, guns pulled, and blood spilled over somethings as little as beer or a broken taillight. Once again, if we could police our own the LEO's would not be up there and this thread would be moot.
For now we all must play by all the rules, in time the police force will subside and hopefuly we will be able to police our own.
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:07 PM   #234 (permalink)
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I don't think you see the big picture in keeping the rubicon open.. We as wheelers are not the only people who are up there watching what is going on.. The loud music is not just at the box and the drinking driving is rampant.. The disrespect people are showing for others a all time high if you ask me.. It is not about folks being able to handle themselves or not anymore.. It is about keeping the trail open.
the last thing i want to see is the trail get shut down, but i think its a little overboard to complain about music in the middle of the forest. i personally have not seen how these people drinking and driving have affected anyone else. has someone been run over? what are the negative actions you have seen that have come into play from people drinking and wheeling?
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:20 PM   #235 (permalink)
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it is the mountains. i dont play music till 4, but if someone wants to i will find a place to go where it doesn't bother me. im an advocate of people having fun. you can go back packing to get away from the noise. you are participating in a motor-sport, it can get noisy sometimes.




i will play ball. but i will not sit hear and say thank god we have camping cops now, or try to tell people what i think they should be doing in the woods. hopefully your right.

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Old 07-24-2010, 07:23 PM   #236 (permalink)
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it is the mountains. i dont play music till 4, but if someone wants to i will find a place to go where it doesn't bother me.
Look into the USFS rule and regs. It does have quite hours for campers. It is the mountains, but the laws don't end at the foothills or the paverment. Why do I have to go somewhere else when I am following the rules and the people that are breaking the rules can stay. Have a good time, but have some respect for others that are enjoying the outdoors as they see fit.
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Old 07-24-2010, 09:01 PM   #237 (permalink)
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it is the mountains. i dont play music till 4, but if someone wants to i will find a place to go where it doesn't bother me. im an advocate of people having fun. you can go back packing to get away from the noise. you are participating in a motor-sport, it can get noisy sometimes.




i will play ball. but i will not sit hear and say thank god we have camping cops now, or try to tell people what i think they should be doing in the woods. hopefully your right.

Go buy the property that allows you this opportunity and the luxury of not having neighbors or other land users within ear shot when it is FS land there are rules and they apply throughout
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Old 07-24-2010, 10:42 PM   #238 (permalink)
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the last thing i want to see is the trail get shut down, but i think its a little overboard to complain about music in the middle of the forest. i personally have not seen how these people drinking and driving have affected anyone else. has someone been run over? what are the negative actions you have seen that have come into play from people drinking and wheeling?
right, because none of us have heard the stories or been there when one of the drunks gets in his rig and rolls it and hurts himself or someone in the rig.... no ones ever died from doing something stupid in their rig while drunk, ever.

I go into the great outdoors to enjoy myself, not hear some punk ass's radio turned up to 11. if i wanted to go to a concert i would. I don't bitch cause there's motors running and driving nearby in the middle of the night.

why should i not be able to camp somewhere I don't wanna listen to loud music all night?
its my forest also.

and why should i have to deal with drunk drivers when i go wheeling? how do you feel that being in the forest gives them the right to break the law? so, what else should be allowed out in the forest in your mind? prostitution? drugs? i mean, those really don't hurt anyone either? I mean, how many people have you heard of getting hurt from that?


the con is the only place i've wheeled.... well, with people from nor cal at least that think going into the woods, or the desert is the perfect place to play music as loud as possible.

I wish there wasn't a need for cops on the trail, but, because everyone and their brother goes there and parties they have created the need.

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Old 07-24-2010, 11:46 PM   #239 (permalink)
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I go into the great outdoors to enjoy myself, what else should be allowed out in the forest. prostitution? drugs? people from nor cal have created the need.
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:33 AM   #240 (permalink)
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It is called common courtesy, it is a public place and everybody should be courteous to others.. Party it up till a decent hour than shut it down.. The attitude from these earlier posts is why we are where we are right now.. If you want to act out and party do it in your own property, don't just assume you have the right to ruin everybody else's time..
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Old 07-25-2010, 02:38 AM   #241 (permalink)
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Miklos - we did have trail patrol for years, and it went through several evolutions, and it finally got down to about 5-6 guys who were regularly stepping up and still do. Our Trail Patrol is far from dead. We could use a few more folks stepping up.
I had the first two people sign up last week in the last 2 years. I would LOVE to have a class to graduate some folks to join....but I haven't had anyone sign up since 2008.

I think the perception is, Trail Patrol is a pseudo enforcement group. FALSE. We're the ones who remind you of the activities that WILL get you a ticket, so you WON'T.
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Old 07-25-2010, 10:41 AM   #242 (permalink)
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well, with people from nor cal at least that think going into the woods, or the desert is the perfect place to play music as loud as possible.
aw man I hate it when you pick on us Nor Cal people but this one I can't argue with you on

I had never heard Kid Rock before my first Con trip and I don't think my ears ever recovered Holy crap that was LOUD music from more than a few vehicles. i was very disappointed about the loud music and commented "why can't we just listen to the motor and the sound of the wind in the pines???"

I just figured i was too old or something but tis true, the times I've wheeled the Hammers no loud tunes.....and no wind in the pines either

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Old 07-25-2010, 10:48 AM   #243 (permalink)
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We're the ones who remind you of the activities that WILL get you a ticket, so you WON'T.

We have IMHO heavy LE presence on the trail now. So what do we need a trail patrol for? No offense but I personally didn't like talking to you guys either (before all the cops showed up). That is the point. I don't go up to the trail or woods to have ANYONE stick their head in my rig or tell me anything. That is an invasion of my space as well as a huge psychological downer for my trip experience.

So let me clarify this for those that do not understand my stance. I do not want to talk to anyone from the forest service, sheriff's department, highway patrol, federal LEO's, trail patrol or anyone else for that matter when I go to the trail. Unless I choose to. I do not feel that I am guilty till proven innocent. My rig conforms to all the vehicle code stuff including the fairy flaps! Right now there is not an admission fee for the trail so why should I have to speak to anyone official to go there? Is there some issue with this? Am I wrong to want to be left the heck alone by government agents and people I do not know or want to know? I am sure you don't wanna know me anymore than I want to know you, so leave me alone!

The writing is on the wall. If you go to the Rubicon plan on being harassed by local, state and federal law enforcement. As well as good intentioned folks who are trying to help you avoid tickets from the LEO's. In general you will potentially have 4-6 different agencies sticking there nose in your business.


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Old 07-25-2010, 11:01 AM   #244 (permalink)
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So what do we need a trail patrol for?

I'm sorry, but your head is in the sand....I'm out there...talking to people and when I first started in 2005...90% or MORE of the people I talked to, had NO CLUE the trail was under any pressure of closure, had no idea the rules, had no idea it was a county road under the same alcohol laws on I-80, didn't know what a PETT was, or a wag bag, or white flower or fill in a million blanks.

That percentage is now less than 30%....so whether you agree or not....it's working. I know the numbers.

Secondly, when I started working Trail Patrol in 2005, it was COMMON for me to collect an ENTIRE full size trash bag of trash between Loon and Spider. YES, 40 GALLON BAG of trash.

2010? Usually a handful, if that.


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No offense but I personally didn't like talking to you guys either (before all the cops showed up). That is the point. I don't go up to the trail or woods to have ANYONE stick their head in my rig or tell me anything. That is an invasion of my space as well as a huge psychological downer for my trip experience.
Sorry, but you're misguided. We're just guys...like you....who want to keep the trail open. There's thousands of people that don't know the rules, don't know the laws and we're there to HELP. That's it period. I don't proclaim to know the vehicle code, we don't stick our head in ANYWHERE. All we do is say hello, usually ask if you'd like a free trash bag, and find out about your knowledge of trail issues. If that "RUINS" your experience....WOW.


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So let me clarify this for those that do not understand my stance. I do not want to talk to anyone from the forest service, sheriff's department, highway patrol, federal LEO's, trail patrol or anyone else for that matter when I go to the trail.
Sorry, but my dad taught me manners, politeness and social skills. When I wheel, I pull over for folks to get by, I wave...say hello. I DEFINITELY say thank you when someone does it for me. This past week week, I pulled over for easily 20-25 rigs.....3 (I counted) said thanks. Pretty pathetic. Definitely not way I was taught, and practice my wheeling. The Rubicon, as much as you want...isn't an isolated place. In fact, there's lots of people and we all have to learn to recreate together.


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Originally Posted by Rockodile View Post
Am I wrong to want to be left the heck alone by government agents and people I do not know or want to know? I am sure you don't wanna know me anymore than I want to know you, so leave me alone!
Yeah..it is you. I've met many nice people on the trail...some are now my friends. Is everyone I meet on the trail going to be my friend? No...but my life is a lot richer and fuller, because I socialize. One day, that "stranger" may be a future boss, a job connection or the person that gives me the part I need to get home. Some people like the solace....I suggest hiking, if you want to completely avoid everyone.

There's a saying....I learned as employee and have taught to the employees that worked for me. If one person is a jerk/idiot.....it's them. If a bunch of people around are jerks/idiots...it's you.
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Last edited by atvobsession; 07-25-2010 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:13 AM   #245 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SeaBass44 View Post
if people could take care of themselves, the LAW wouldn't be up there.
people act like kids & this is result.
too late to say "what if"
people didn't want to listen 10 years ago, this is end result
does no good to complain now, it's too late
BASS I will complain! That is a right I have. Don't try pinning the whole thing on me either. I don't care how long you have been using the trail. It does not give you a right to tell me ANYTHING!!!! You can state your opinion all day long though!


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Originally Posted by Pat View Post
It is called common courtesy, it is a public place and everybody should be courteous to others.. Party it up till a decent hour than shut it down.. The attitude from these earlier posts is why we are where we are right now.. If you want to act out and party do it in your own property, don't just assume you have the right to ruin everybody else's time..

You assume that no one but you and your ilk understand this. You are condescending and I am starting to get sick of it so I thought I would say HEY!

Common courtesy also states that you make your point and go on. So you have made your point (30 times) so go on!
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:30 AM   #246 (permalink)
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I have been watching this thread and one thing bugs me is the number of LEO, here’s why;
I live in the east bay and work in Palo Alto, I travel 36 miles each way on 880, 84 & 101. I see maybe 5000 vehicles a day, I can see at least 20 volitions of the CVC every day, If I am really paying attention I my see one LEO some days I may see none!
That being said 6 LEO’s on a short section of trail is out of the norm! I doubt the trail sees 5000 rig a day, so to me the ratio of LEO to rigs is way out of proportion and the dollars could be better spent elsewhere.
It kind of like back in the days when the Dead was touring and the DEA would go thru the parking lot, because it was easy pickings and the Deadhead were not going to shoot at them!
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:43 AM   #247 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, but your head is in the sand....I'm out there...talking to people and when I first started in 2005...90% or MORE of the people I talked to, had NO CLUE the trail was under any pressure of closure, had no idea the rules, had no idea it was a county road under the same alcohol laws on I-80, didn't know what a PETT was, or a wag bag, or white flower or fill in a million blanks.

That percentage is now less than 30%....so whether you agree or not....it's working. I know the numbers.

Secondly, when I started working Trail Patrol in 2005, it was COMMON for me to collect an ENTIRE full size trash bag of trash between Loon and Spider. YES, 40 GALLON BAG of trash.

2010? Usually a handful, if that.




Sorry, but you're misguided. We're just guys...like you....who want to keep the trail open. There's thousands of people that don't know the rules, don't know the laws and we're there to HELP. That's it period. I don't proclaim to know the vehicle code, we don't stick our head in ANYWHERE. All we do is say hello, usually ask if you'd like a free trash bag, and find out about your knowledge of trail issues. If that "RUINS" your experience....WOW.




Sorry, but my dad taught me manners, politeness and social skills. When I wheel, I pull over for folks to get by, I wave...say hello. I DEFINITELY say thank you when someone does it for me. This past week week, I pulled over for easily 20-25 rigs.....3 (I counted) said thanks. Pretty pathetic. Definitely not way I was taught, and practice my wheeling. The Rubicon, as much as you want...isn't an isolated place. In fact, there's lots of people and we all have to learn to recreate together.




Yeah..it is you. I've met many nice people on the trail...some are now my friends. Is everyone I meet on the trail going to be my friend? No...but my life is a lot richer and fuller, because I socialize. One day, that "stranger" may be a future boss, a job connection or the person that gives me the part I need to get home. Some people like the solace....I suggest hiking, if you want to completely avoid everyone.

There's a saying....I learned as employee and have taught to the employees that worked for me. If one person is a jerk/idiot.....it's them. If a bunch of people around are jerks/idiots...it's you.
Quite a stretch if you ask me. I don't go out mean mugging people or being disrespectful. I pull over for folks to get by and I acknowledge people courteously if faced with the situation. And because you are doing good and the cops are protecting me I have to be happy about having contact with you.

So basically even though I have done nothing wrong, even though I know the rules and conform to them. I still have to be happy about having to talk to you and the cops every freaking time I go up there?? WRONG! Is the same conversation we had a couple of years ago. I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE. I am not being mean when I say this. Is just a fact. I may or may not be an [email protected]#&$. I will leave that up to you if you meet me.

As far as trail patrol goes, more power to you. But now that the LEO's are up there in force you are just one more person I don't want to talk to.

People are courteous most of the time. That does not mean that under their breath they are not saying to themselves..."why do I have to talk to this person?? Why?"


I didn't call anyone a jerk either. But if not liking talking to or being around another group of people (LEO's & Trail Patrol) makes me a jerk. Well then I am the biggest JERK you ever will meet!

Last edited by Rockodile; 07-25-2010 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Added
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:44 PM   #248 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rockodile View Post
BASS I will complain! That is a right I have. Don't try pinning the whole thing on me either. I don't care how long you have been using the trail. It does not give you a right to tell me ANYTHING!!!! You can state your opinion all day long though!





You assume that no one but you and your ilk understand this. You are condescending and I am starting to get sick of it so I thought I would say HEY!

Common courtesy also states that you make your point and go on. So you have made your point (30 times) so go on!

I am glad you are getting sick of it.. And frankly you are the pot calling the kettle black.. You don't like what me and my Ilks have to say put us on your ignore list.. Go stomp your feet somewhere else
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Old 07-25-2010, 12:50 PM   #249 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rockodile View Post
BASS I will complain! That is a right I have. Don't try pinning the whole thing on me either. I don't care how long you have been using the trail. It does not give you a right to tell me ANYTHING!!!! You can state your opinion all day long though!





You assume that no one but you and your ilk understand this. You are condescending and I am starting to get sick of it so I thought I would say HEY!

Common courtesy also states that you make your point and go on. So you have made your point (30 times) so go on!
go ahead & complain, it will do no good, but it's your right
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Old 07-25-2010, 01:00 PM   #250 (permalink)
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go ahead & complain, it will do no good, but it's your right
Thank you Sir! I appreciate your acknowledging that!!
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