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Old 06-07-2018, 05:41 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Minor update:

Not much progress. I got around to blocking the bottom of the wall and doing brackets on the top plate. The twist style brackets turned out to sit too high off the wall and would prevent me from attaching plywood as well as I want to so I decided not to use them. Blocking the top is going to be a lost cause because in about half the spaces there's something that prevents me from putting in a good tight fitting block.

This weekend I'm going to see my parents so I'll pull measurements from the boat trailer stuff I mentioned previously.

Plywood will probably happen some time in late July because basically all my weekends are booked until then.
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Old 06-07-2018, 07:42 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Today's rambling is about utilities.

I'm mostly posting this so I don't forget the details. Constructive feedback is appreciated. Bullshit feedback will be ignored but if I have to ignore too much of it you better not own anything with a sunroof.

The situation/plan/specs is as follows:

NG enters the house at the bottom right in the attached picture and needs to get to the vicinity of the chimney where all the appliances are.

Shop air will also enter at the top left corner because the compressor will be located in the garage and there's already a fairly large conduit running to the garage from the other half of the basement and that's the wall it comes through.

The main line for the steam piping currently runs in a ~10'-15' square that's close to centered in the basement. I'm not going to touch the seam piping until the system needs major work since it's high enough up to be mostly out of my way. Whenever I do have to touch it I will run the main line around the perimeter of the basement and convert the steam system to hot water. The thing that kicks this off will probably be the furnace since it's at least 10yo already.

There's an outdoor spigot on the corner of the house by the NG connection and another one on the wall by the work table that need water supplied to them.

There's an exterior outlet on all four walls of the house, one is near the left end of the work bench and the other is on the wall between the door that exits the basement and the NG meter

The exterior outlets and spigots are in the actual walls of the house, not through the sill or the foundation. There outlets don't even work. I haven't traced the wires that come out of them but I bet they're not hooked up to anything. The spigots are supplied with copper Z-bends that snake around the joists and sill and up into the wall. These are poorly supported and poorly sealed. I am getting siding done later this month. I'm going to remove these outlets and spigots prior to that. The plan for replacing them is to drill a holes through the concrete foundation, line the holes with 3/4 PVC conduit, run wires/pex through their corresponding conduit and affix the outlet boxes and spigots to the concrete foundation (and seal it all up properly).

The electric panel is in the other part of the basement and electricity will enter the shop area at the bottom left corner.

The plan is to have three or four circuits for the basement. One circuit will be lighting and ventilation only. If the welder pops the breaker in the middle of a pass on something galvanized I don't want the lights and fan to go down with it. I will have one circuit for 220v stuff in the shop. My biggest load right now is a 180A Airco welder. According to the Internet it has a peak output voltage of 80v which comes out to 65A if you ignore efficiency. It will probably do a 50A breaker with #6 wire for the 220v circuit.

I'm going to do two circuits for 120v at 30A. I'm going to do a box with four plugs every four feet or so (plugs and boxes are cheap and two outlets in one place never seems to be enough). Both circuits will share the same 1/2 conduit. The run from the panel is around 40ft at most so that doesn't bother me. One pair of outlets on each box will be on each circuit. I bet that's not allowed by code but I'll sleep better at night knowing that my current draw is more evenly distributed so I don't care.

Routing will be as follows:

Everything will be run at the top of the wall and foundation. The natural gas line will run at the very top since it just passes through without having to connect to anything. The outdoor spigots will be second to bottom. Air is probably going to be the at the bottom and will be 3/4 PEX since it's cheap and everything I've read about doing this indicates that it will handle the pressure just fine. Air lines that go down the wall will be 1/2" copper with drain valves at the bottom. The PEX will make arches between the T's so that any moisture drains out. Since they are PEX the air and water lines can easily bend around any conduit that needs to run down the wall to power outlets or supply air. Any water supply for heating will be added years after the fact and I can just mount it on standoffs.


The 220v circuit and the circuit supplying the outdoor outlets may get their own 1/2 conduit (yes, I know that the 1/2 for the 220 would be way over full if I did this) or they may wind up sharing a single 3/4 conduit (yes I know you're not supposed to mix sizes in a single conduit). I will price it out several different ways and see if I can come up with something I am comfortable with. I am hoping to make the exterior outlets 30a but may settle for less if the smaller wire results in it all fitting in a single conduit in a way that is not obviously unsafe.

The conduit for the 120v electrical will go between the NG line and the water.

Outlet boxes will be located further down the wall. There's two ways I can run the conduit down to the outlet boxes. I can either use T's and run a single conduit down the the boxes or I can do 90 bends and run two conduits to each box. I suspect that the latter will wind up being cheaper so that's probably what I'll do.

So, on a scale from more "likely than average" to "basically certain" how likely am I to have an electrical fire with the planned setup?

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Old 06-07-2018, 01:46 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Why not save some money by having the NG piping do double duty as conduit? it's no more hack than the rest of the shit your suggesting...
Hell, for that matter, maybe just do a halo setup out of knob and tube straight off the mains, that way you can tap whatever you need, wherever you need it?
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Old 06-07-2018, 03:29 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Why not save some money by having the NG piping do double duty as conduit? it's no more hack than the rest of the shit your suggesting...
Hell, for that matter, maybe just do a halo setup out of knob and tube straight off the mains, that way you can tap whatever you need, wherever you need it?
That's not efficient enough.

I should tie the NG pipe to ground and neutral at the panel so that I only have to run hot wires

Seriously though, beyond over filling conduit (which I may yet talk myself out of depending on price) I don't see any issue with what I'm planning. It's not like I've places other than the walls that I can affix the water and NG pipe to.
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Old 09-22-2018, 03:43 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Well after doing basically nothing all summer I finally got around to sheathing the wall.

I picked up four free 8ft fluorescent light fixtures on Craigslist. Those should light the bulk of the shop.

Next weekend or the weekend after I'm gonna demo all the remaining shiplap walls in the basement. Sometime in October my brother is going to help me with the electrical. I don't actually need help with it but he has never done electrical other than sound systems before so he needs the experience.

Once those are doing I'm painting everything yellow and the floor will be light (for a floor) gray to make the place lighter.

Not really shop related but I got a canoe. I was looking for an aluminum one with a transom, this meets neither of those criteria but you can't argue with free.
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:07 AM   #31 (permalink)
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For a "machine shop" spend for an epoxy, either with a grit in it, or add grit to it. Regular floor paint sucks bawls
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:48 AM   #32 (permalink)
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There's been some progress.

Wall got finished. Lights went up. Wall got painted. Sure is bright in here and I've still got four more lights I haven't put up yet

I also finally moved the appliances over to the other room. Fuck pex clamp fittings. They are the sketchiest shit ever. I will never use them anywhere a leak would be a big problem.

I laid out the electrical boxes and started wiring them. I am gonna have 2 circuits of 220, one for each side of the room. That way if I'm working with someone else we can both pull 50A. The garage gets its own circuit so that the draw from the compressor doesn't affect me if I'm using the plasma cutter (or anything in the house) Each 220V outlet has at least a 4-gang of 120 beside it and there's more 120 by the work bench.

I bought some 1/4 steel sheets for a welding table (not sure if I mentioned that already). Frame of the table is gonna be some 4" C channel that I picked up. Welding table is gonna be 4ft x 6ft in one end of the shop like planned. My storage filling cabinets will go underneath and I'll have plenty of room behind them to store more stuff. I know 4ft is kind of deep for a primary work bench but I think it will be really useful to be able to put big things on the table and have room to spin them around so I can have the end I want to work on out at the edge. For building things I think that having the flexibility to lay things out on the table and still be able.

I also picked up a big fucking compressor (66gal. head is big enough I can't easily lift it). I stuck it in the garage and snaked a 3/4pex line through the 3" conduit.

I still haven't run electricity out to the garage yet. The PO was nice enough to run 3" and 2.5"(?) conduit to the garage. I'm gonna use the 3" for air and electricity and eventually I'll use the 2.5" for water. Electricity is one of my higher priority projects at this point. I don't know whether I'll get it done in the shop or basement first.

I used https://www.harborfreight.com/air-to...gun-60314.html to paint the cement portion of the wall. I would recommend it to anyone painting rough concrete. It uses a fuckton of air and lays it on thick but that's exactly what you need for good coverage on rough concrete. I used 6gal of paint. The plywood wall got two coats with a roller. The tough to spray spots got the brush. Everything else got sprayed. The space is ~13x26 and the walls are a little over 7.5' high.
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Old 01-26-2019, 10:52 AM   #33 (permalink)
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For a "machine shop" spend for an epoxy, either with a grit in it, or add grit to it. Regular floor paint sucks bawls
Why does floor paint suck?

How does opoxy hold up fab shop kind of work? Is the area be the work bench where everything gets cut off and dropped going to be beat to shit in short order? How well do they take the occasional drop of molten metal?

5gal of paint is like $60. For $150ish I'd be willing use something like this if it's really that much better.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Seal-Kre...1005/203002753

If it's gonna be more than $200/5gal I'm gonna have a hard time justifying it.

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Old 01-28-2019, 02:10 AM   #34 (permalink)
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That Seal-Krete is garbage. I tried it. Full degrease, double acid wash, totally clean. I also used their primer first. It dries with a "flat' sheen. As soon as you step on it, it leaves tracks. 2 heavy coats will not cover.
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Old 01-28-2019, 02:28 AM   #35 (permalink)
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https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rust-Ole...1870/100671422

This is a far better product. It is a true 2 part "epoxy". I used 1 gallon to cover a 12'x24' paint booth. 3/8" nap roller. Flows nice and covers great. I wouldn't use any "grit". That will make it much harder to clean.
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Old 05-04-2019, 10:42 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Got my mill delivered today. It'll probably be awhile before it makes it into the basement though. I need to build a dolly that I can move it on.
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:37 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Jebus. I bet that's a rigid machine.
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:52 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Jebus. I bet that's a rigid machine.
You should have seen the one the previous owner was replacing it with.
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Old 05-05-2019, 08:30 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I assume you have a ground floor entrance to your basement shop? (Hard to move that mill down stairs.) Is that mill something you got at a great price or do you require it? Don't get me wrong, bigger is better, but it seems a bit much.

I did have a friend that moved a "Bridgeport" size mill down stairs. (And back up later) That was a clusterf*ck. If there's a will, there's a way.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:12 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I have roll in access to the basement. I wouldn't have bought this house if I didn't. Being able to have my machine shop in basement was a requirement. Shit rusts fast in an unheated garage and I'm too cheap for a heated garage.

Yes. I got a great price. It's set me back about $1500 so far (including delivery). That's about what a tired but workable Bridgeport costs around here. It doesn't have a motor and needs to be taken apart and cleaned (but it needs to be taken apart to go through the basement door anyway so) I'll probably be into it about $2k by the time it's in the basement and operational. Having spent plenty of time in college machining car parts on Bridgeport sized machines I decided I wanted something substantially bigger. Not always working at the limits of the machine gives you a lot more flexibility.
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Old 05-05-2019, 05:36 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Got my mill delivered today. It'll probably be awhile before it makes it into the basement though. I need to build a dolly that I can move it on.
One of these machines is on my bucket list of tools! How much does it weigh and how hard was it to find? Its a No 3 right?
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Old 05-05-2019, 07:07 PM   #42 (permalink)
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One of these machines is on my bucket list of tools! How much does it weigh and how hard was it to find? Its a No 3 right?

#2, IIRC it's about 7500lb. You can usually find the manual online which tells you how heavy they are. I was looking and looking and had basically resigned myself to making a Bridgeport head adapter for a suitably large horizontal and then I casually mentioned that I was looking for a big vertical to someone online and they were like "I have one but it's probably on the wrong side of the country". Horizontals about this size seem way more common. I think I've seen one other on CL but my searches for machine shop tools are all capped at $2k. I would keep your eyes peeled on forum classifieds.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:49 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Every time a see one of these Cincinnati vertical mills it reminds me of the time I got screwed out of a big No.7

I was on the road to pick it up when the guy called me and said he just sold it to someone for $200 more then our agreed upon price.

Anyways gonna be interesting to see it down in the basement!
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Old 06-09-2019, 05:58 PM   #44 (permalink)
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So, a $500 Bridgeport popped up. I sent the link to my buddy who said his toy budget wasn't that full right now so of course I bought it to hold for him and to hold me over until I can get the big mill done and in, not like I couldn't get my $500 back selling it to someone else anyway. It's three phase but I'll need 3-phase power for the big mill anyway.

Of course I got it into my basement alleyway before I said fuck it and pulled the saddle and knee. The hardest part was every time you had to get the engine hoist out from under it you had to push it way forward because the base is wider than the hoist feet, definitely a two person job. 2x4s make great rails for pipe rollers to ride on. My ghetto jack stands came in handy a couple times.

Since it's apart I may as well clean and paint it. I'm thinking a royal blue will be nice. We had a mill about that color back in college and I want something with a little more flair than the usual gray.

Anyone have suggestions for non-water based cleaners that will cut grease and doesn't evaporate too fast (since I'll be using rags and a bucket for most of this)?
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:40 AM   #45 (permalink)
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It's water based, but purple power is the way to go. Cleaned up both my bridgeport and leblond with it, buckets and rags. Takes a while, but the concentrate will eat the paint off my machines if you let it sit too long.

Other than that, brake cleaner, acetone, etc.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:23 AM   #46 (permalink)
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It's water based, but purple power is the way to go. Cleaned up both my bridgeport and leblond with it, buckets and rags. Takes a while, but the concentrate will eat the paint off my machines if you let it sit too long.

Other than that, brake cleaner, acetone, etc.
I've had good luck with the gallon of yellow concentrate cleaner they sell at HF too... it is also water based.

If you want non-water based and cheap then gasoline will get er done. The naysayers will cry about it, but it works.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:10 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I've had good luck with the gallon of yellow concentrate cleaner they sell at HF too... it is also water based.

If you want non-water based and cheap then gasoline will get er done. The naysayers will cry about it, but it works.
Check his location, Gestapo will come and abuse his love hole for using gas for anything other than motor fuel in the Commonwealth
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:05 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Check his location, Gestapo will come and abuse his love hole for using gas for anything other than motor fuel in the Commonwealth
Hopefully, they don't have a camera in his basement. If you gonna use gas, get Av-gas from your airport. It evaporates much quicker and leaves less of a trace. Smells better too!
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:31 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Hopefully, they don't have a camera in his basement. If you gonna use gas, get Av-gas from your airport. It evaporates much quicker and leaves less of a trace. Smells better too!
You think Gestapo allows them to purchase AV gas and leave premises without using said fuel to refuel a plane?

Where I am is basically northern Mass, and they don't allow that shit
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Old 06-10-2019, 11:34 AM   #50 (permalink)
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You think Gestapo allows them to purchase AV gas and leave premises without using said fuel to refuel a plane?

Where I am is basically northern Mass, and they don't allow that shit
I used to work at Chatham airport. Tell them it's for a racecar and you're good to go. Then again, like all proper socialist republics MA lets the rich oligarchs do what they please while fucking over everyone else so I would not at all be surprised if that didn't fly locally.

I think I'll just use mineral spirits and a wire wheel for the loose paint.

Edit: here's a couple more pics
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