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Old 01-31-2020, 08:32 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Roll Bender. which to get? $10k budget

i need to get a roll bender.

i currenty have a heavy duty hand crank similar to swags 'hulk roller'. hooked up to a pipe threader to power it. it not enough, and i just smoked the pipe threader. so its time to step up.

currently looking at 2 models, and need to keep it under $10k, and single phase power. needs to bend 2" .120wall square tube.

edwards HAT5000- i like that its hydraulic, but its built as an add on to the ironworkers so it doesn't have a hydraulic power source with it. they sell a power pack for it but its really pricey ~$4k. are there any other powerpack options, a dump trialer power pack seems to be close but i doubt it has the duty cycle. other power pack options? also a bonus that it belive it comes with most of the dies needed

maybe just bit the bullet and get an iron worker at the same time. but an ironworker isn't something i see my self using alot. would definitely blow the budget but i might be okay with that for more tools.


https://www.trick-tools.com/Edwards-...-HAT5000-10529


baileigh r m55- this one fits the bill, but i have a feeling it will be lacking on power and take a long time to get much of a radius on the 2" sq tube. nice that its ready to go out of the box.

https://www.baileigh.com/manual-ring-roller-r-m55


anyone have any input?
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Old 01-31-2020, 08:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Iron worker is more handy than then most realize. Especially with a hole punch set. Even if you want a cleaner hole, you can undersize punch it and then drill to you exact size.
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Old 01-31-2020, 01:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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i've always had iron workers when was an employee. i know how nice they can be to have, i would really like to have the angle/ bar shear and a coper notcher mostly. most anything that needs holes comes of the plasma table.

at some point i will have one, but at this point i think the money is better spent on other tooling. since i wrote the post this morning, i've mostly given up the possibility of getting the iron worker and am leaning, towards the Baileigh machine.

i'm going to need to purchase soon, or hire the bending out. and the only place close enough has a retarded operator who cant figure out how to bend for a spiral stair case. hopefully i can figure it out and wont have to cut and blend handrails and gates anymore.
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Old 01-31-2020, 02:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracyb View Post
i need to get a roll bender.

i currenty have a heavy duty hand crank similar to swags 'hulk roller'. hooked up to a pipe threader to power it. it not enough, and i just smoked the pipe threader. so its time to step up.

currently looking at 2 models, and need to keep it under $10k, and single phase power. needs to bend 2" .120wall square tube.

edwards HAT5000- i like that its hydraulic, but its built as an add on to the ironworkers so it doesn't have a hydraulic power source with it. they sell a power pack for it but its really pricey ~$4k. are there any other powerpack options, a dump trialer power pack seems to be close but i doubt it has the duty cycle. other power pack options? also a bonus that it belive it comes with most of the dies needed

maybe just bit the bullet and get an iron worker at the same time. but an ironworker isn't something i see my self using alot. would definitely blow the budget but i might be okay with that for more tools.


https://www.trick-tools.com/Edwards-...-HAT5000-10529


baileigh r m55- this one fits the bill, but i have a feeling it will be lacking on power and take a long time to get much of a radius on the 2" sq tube. nice that its ready to go out of the box.

https://www.baileigh.com/manual-ring-roller-r-m55


anyone have any input?
Has your hulk style roll bender been working other than the pipe threader power unit burning out? I've thought about putting one of these electric hoist motors to work on a roll bender. Forward and reverse at the push of a button. Should be plenty strong too...


https://www.harborfreight.com/2000-l...rol-62770.html
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Old 01-31-2020, 03:42 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Has your hulk style roll bender been working other than the pipe threader power unit burning out? I've thought about putting one of these electric hoist motors to work on a roll bender. Forward and reverse at the push of a button. Should be plenty strong too...


https://www.harborfreight.com/2000-l...rol-62770.html
i'm maxing out what its really capable of almost all the time. to bend 1-1/4" sch40 pipe is really hard, and takes a ton of passes. and the threader gets really hot after one pass. it is truly meant for really thin wall tube.

consider the dies pin size for example the hulk roller size is 5/8 or 3/4", claims a capability of 2x2x.120wall while the powered roll benders making similar claims has a pin size of 2". yes being in double shear make a huge differance. also keeping the bend on a flat plain can be difficult, and there is no offset for say a spiral staircase handrail type bend.

in all honesty the roll bender i have has been more frustrating than anything, most time i start bending get frustrated and hire the job out.

if there is a shop that can bend for you i would go that route. $1k you spend on a bender is a bit of shop time.

basically unless for bending really really thin wall stuff i would save my money and time. i've wasted allot of both to finally come to terms witht the fact i need a real machine.
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Old 01-31-2020, 05:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Have you thought about making one?
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Old 01-31-2020, 05:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I would at least get a quote on an Eagle machine. (made in Italy)

They seem to be the 'standard' in shops.

I'm fairly ambivalent about baileigh. It's normally just branded chinese stuff. Nothing wrong with that. I have a few things from them.

Their rolls you linked are from Portugal, which makes me feel better about them.

Try to get the hydraulic down feed if you can.
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Old 01-31-2020, 07:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Has your hulk style roll bender been working other than the pipe threader power unit burning out? I've thought about putting one of these electric hoist motors to work on a roll bender. Forward and reverse at the push of a button. Should be plenty strong too...


https://www.harborfreight.com/2000-l...rol-62770.html
nononono
just use a generic 3ph motor for instant reverse
jackshafts and roller chain for reduction

to the OP; no input of value, I'm more along the path of cobbling shit together to get it done
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Old 01-31-2020, 09:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Have you thought about making one?
110% i have. built allot of my own tools, and struggled allot my first 2 yrs in business. 5 yrs in now i can confidently say i became successful when i valued my time the same as i expect my customers to. i have one tool i made then that is still regularly used, a small 12" 20ton press brake. i built he cnc table too but that was more of a brainless follow the steps thing.

in another thread i mentioned being a newish dad, with a 2yo and a 1yo, 14 months apart... crazy how that forced my hand further with valuing my time. since about 6months after the first kid, and some of his issues, we went from DINKS to a single income family. i again raised my rates and and things are good. i have to be careful, and i have in the past spent more building than just buying, all things considered.

i know what i'm best at, and i put a number on it, it varies but right now that number is 100/hr. less than i charge a new customer but more than i charge long time loyalty. i think i could competitively create a proper bender in 100 hrs, but that wouldn't include the brain space it would take away from other creative paid jobs and bids. i'm not a typical jobshop metal worker, as an example a current ongoing job is assisting another contractor build a 'tree-house'... my bread and butter is repair and typical shit, but i make money on bids and creative work.


the only tool i can see myself making, profiting from, in the near future is a large press brake. the small press brake took me 2hrs to build and has made me a mint.

also i'm over my head in work and have 3 jobs currently i would need to hire the roll bending out on. first one needs to be rolling in 3 wks. assuming i pick up on the operation quickly, between dealing with the local roll bend capable shop and time spent adjusting/ fixing their work, my return on investment wil be months

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Old 01-31-2020, 11:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I would at least get a quote on an Eagle machine. (made in Italy)

They seem to be the 'standard' in shops.

I'm fairly ambivalent about baileigh. It's normally just branded chinese stuff. Nothing wrong with that. I have a few things from them.

Their rolls you linked are from Portugal, which makes me feel better about them.

Try to get the hydraulic down feed if you can.
eagle is one of the brands trick tools sells. that to me says something, i have yet to buy from trick tools but they seam to fairly represent and only sell what they will stand behind. i hate baileigh, grizzley, jet..etc. not just the foreign part, it bothering that its hard to find any good info on so much of them. i got a deal on my sheet tooling all jet brand, roller, finger brake brake, corner notcher, bead roller, all of which are over rated at 16g. this is the main reason for my initial lean towards the edwards bender. american made. i have a knee jerk reaction to being cheap on tools, however i've cant say enough about he tools i spent the extra money on. Ellis and Hypertherm come to mind.

i had 4 different band saws in the shop before i bought an ellis, i think i was double the price of the grizly saw with similar ratings. but i its been rock solid and saved me many times the price difference. didn't realize how long a blade could last until that saw. local shop used to give me morse swag since i bought so many of their blades. not anymore. and with no coolent mess.

i have spent way too much money being dissapointed with building or buying tools that are sub par. on the other hand this would be the first time i spent this much money on a tool the might sit months or a year between uses.

i limit full size bending on the jet brand finger brake to 20g although its rated at 16g. but i think an over rating on a roll bender on ly really limits how many passes in would take....

really wish they where rated evenly at a size and how many passes to get there. there is no real way to know how they compare, which is why i posted.

gotta make decision by end of weekend, buy tool or hire out... now i'm leaning edwards or eagle, i dont want to be/ cant be disappointed by this machine. but i'm still a cheap fuck... edwards... need to figure out a power pack. guess i'm sleeping on it again. being a wood butcher it was allot easier, more confidence in buying tools.
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Old 02-01-2020, 06:14 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I'd pass on the Edwards personally, mainly because of the hydraulics issue.

But I'm also not the biggest fan of Edwards ironworkers in general. (Good, yes. I'd call them 'standard' quality)

I'd also worry they won't sell these in 5 years and then stop supporting it.

Same thing happened with JD2 on their bead roller and horizontal press. They apparently don't make them anymore .

We know Eagle will 'aways' make them just like Ellis will 'always' make saws.

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Roll bending is sort of an art form and there is a long learning curve (pun not intended, ha). I've researched it fairly well and would like to have one myself.
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Old 02-01-2020, 07:42 AM   #12 (permalink)
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110% i have. built allot of my own tools, and struggled allot my first 2 yrs in business. 5 yrs in now i can confidently say i became successful when i valued my time the same as i expect my customers to. i have one tool i made then that is still regularly used, a small 12" 20ton press brake. i built he cnc table too but that was more of a brainless follow the steps thing.

in another thread i mentioned being a newish dad, with a 2yo and a 1yo, 14 months apart... crazy how that forced my hand further with valuing my time. since about 6months after the first kid, and some of his issues, we went from DINKS to a single income family. i again raised my rates and and things are good. i have to be careful, and i have in the past spent more building than just buying, all things considered.

i know what i'm best at, and i put a number on it, it varies but right now that number is 100/hr. less than i charge a new customer but more than i charge long time loyalty. i think i could competitively create a proper bender in 100 hrs, but that wouldn't include the brain space it would take away from other creative paid jobs and bids. i'm not a typical jobshop metal worker, as an example a current ongoing job is assisting another contractor build a 'tree-house'... my bread and butter is repair and typical shit, but i make money on bids and creative work.


the only tool i can see myself making, profiting from, in the near future is a large press brake. the small press brake took me 2hrs to build and has made me a mint.

also i'm over my head in work and have 3 jobs currently i would need to hire the roll bending out on. first one needs to be rolling in 3 wks. assuming i pick up on the operation quickly, between dealing with the local roll bend capable shop and time spent adjusting/ fixing their work, my return on investment wil be months
I fully understand, I also have a 1 year old and 2 year almost exactly 14 months apart

As far as shop time, I get that also. I threw it out there since it seemed like you were capable of doing so. I'm not super familiar with rollers, but they seem extremely simple. Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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i remember that from the sxs thread. time has never been at so much of a premium. i'm just thankful its working out.

i dont think your missing any thing, just too much time for me to invest right now. would need to do alot of figuring for hardened pins the drive, etc etc. so i'm not considering it as an option.

on the eagle machine its interesting that the drive pins are only 40mm. most machine in the same capacity rating are 50mm or 2". but looking them more it does seem they are the fabricators standard for roll benders. only issue i see with them right now is not having 3ph power, might need to look into phase convertors, been a while since i considered a 3ph machine.

the edwards machine i have the same concern about it no being supported in a couple years, hell i'm almost certain that it would be. but its still a very tempting option. i think the hyd power pack is was overpriced so i'd be building my own from northern tool parts it think it would run me less that $500.

another reason edwards option is temping is that i would be able to use the power pack for when i get a press brake built. the summer months are about as slow as i get for work, so thats when i should be able to get it built, i already have all the cylinders and parts needed for the build. so i go that going for me.

decisions like this where much easier before kids. my yearly tool buget is 15-20% of what it used to be. makes the Baileigh tempting i'm really try to talk myself out of it even being an option.
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Old 02-01-2020, 09:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I had a job where I was going to need to do some rolling. Did my research and was going to pull the trigger on an eagle. I thought its was the best roller for the price. Job was pushed back and I didn't get it, but it's still on my list of tools to get.

As far as press brake builds, I've considered it but you really can't build it for cheaper than finding an older used mechanical brake. I have 3 in my shop, all found for a pretty good deal. Looking for something in the 10'-12' 200t range to add to the shop now.
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Old 02-02-2020, 11:58 AM   #15 (permalink)
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well i've all but settled on the eagle CP30 machine.

spec sheet doesn't say it will do 2"x.120 sq tube, but i'm thinking it will be fine for the long radius gates and such that i'm doing, or i'll go thinner wall. anything tighter radius will be smaller like the spiral staircase stuff.

and it comes in a single phase power option, even a 120v option, as well as short base making it easy to use in the field and thats a huge plus as some of the homes i work on need to be done in place. i'll from time to time outfit my enclosed trailer per the job and be on site (often on an island) for months at a time. the cnc plas is always in the trailer, usually just throw whatever welder, benders and material in. so far only been a few jobs but seems more builders are catching on to what i do.

and lastly, it wont break the budget. $10k was max i'm comfortable with, anymore and i would've looked in to financing. the CP30 will leave money left for some other shop stuff.

i'll be calling Eagle in the morning and go from there.

*also just looking at some additional dies, Eagle has a deal if you by a machine and buy one die, the second is half of, if you by the second at half off the third is free. i do alot of work in 1-1/4" pipe, got to think what the two other most used dies would be...hmm more thinking

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Old 02-02-2020, 12:26 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I had a job where I was going to need to do some rolling. Did my research and was going to pull the trigger on an eagle. I thought its was the best roller for the price. Job was pushed back and I didn't get it, but it's still on my list of tools to get.

As far as press brake builds, I've considered it but you really can't build it for cheaper than finding an older used mechanical brake. I have 3 in my shop, all found for a pretty good deal. Looking for something in the 10'-12' 200t range to add to the shop now.
i'm between Seattle and the Canadian borde in Wa. most of my work is in the san juan islands, my shop is on north Whidbey.

used machinery i think is allot easier to find on the east coast. its hard to find anything around here even worth looking at and the last few years auction prices have been crazy. i've seen some benders and welders go for more than new prices at some auctions.

best i've seen in the 4ish years i've been looking was a 12' and only 115ton, missing v block, but claimed good working order for $25k.

if you know of any good used machinery shops i'm all ears.


one other thing is most press brake work i do is for saddles and such where one leg needs to fold over the top of the die. in a U shape.

the small bender i use allot, i made so the bottom with the v-block moves and the top die is static. this is also how i would build a larger one. currently i just have a 12" press with 20ton cylinder. and i'll soon have a 24 and 36" ones done. then will make plans to go big, i've got a bunch of big I beam i'd like to put to use.

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Old 02-03-2020, 06:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I've been using a HULK for about 5 years with the Pipe threader motor... never had an issue with it getting hot BUT that said I would prefer an Eagle roll bender... because I can do more in one pass... and it is an open face design... Drawbacks are die Sizes for Round... They come with all the plates and spacers you need for flat/square/angle.. but the round rolls cost a fortune... and you won't get MUCH in this type machine for $10k...
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Old 02-03-2020, 07:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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well i talked to Eagle this morning and they emailed me a quote. this is the machine i think i'm going with;

https://www.eaglebendingmachines.com/EAGLE-CP30.html

i'm going with the no-base/ portable unit. i would like the next size bigger but this one will make me more money. it will still do the 2" square tube i need it to but not .120 wall. they also sent me a link to calculate the section modulus of different sizes and as long as i the number is below .35 i'm good to go.

i was quoted $5,295 for;

CP30 MS
Short Base for Trailer, Truck or Bench Mounting, LED Readout
1 Speed 220V 1 Phase, in Stock

then in addition to the standard dies it comes with. i want to get a few round dies, pipe sizes 1-1/4"(1.66"od) and 3/4"(1.05"od). and tube size 2".

was quoted $872.50 for all three dies.

and frieght $570

all is in stock, ready to ship.


so i'm looking at $6,737.50 plus tax right now (i believe its 7.75% stapllton, Al). and my tax man says if i stay in the same tax bracket, and i will, i'm looking at a real cost of $5,120.50 after deduction.


$5,120.50-ish (plus the sales tax) i'm good with that. will complete purchase tomorrow morning, cant imagine changing my mind now.


*and bonus! one of the best deals i've seen on a press brake. i just found on CL. $5k for a 12' 150ton brake, just got to figure out how to unload it... luckily, i believe a friend just picked up a forklift capable of it. more calls to make in the morning. hope this works out!
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Old 02-03-2020, 08:14 PM   #19 (permalink)
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oh yeah, thanks jamscal! i wouldn't have even looked at eagle if you hadn't said something. and would've spent more money. thanks fo rthe advice
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Old 02-04-2020, 04:07 AM   #20 (permalink)
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oh yeah, thanks jamscal! i wouldn't have even looked at eagle if you hadn't said something. and would've spent more money. thanks fo rthe advice
Great, hope it works out.

Sometimes my advice is worth what you paid for it.
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Old 02-04-2020, 06:05 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Great, hope it works out.

Sometimes my advice is worth what you paid for it.
it will no doubt be better than what i had.

i signed the po and its supposed to be shipped tomorrow.

i'll no doubt be finger effin it and bending what ever comes to mind when it gets here. have 2, maybe more jobs for it asap. so we'll see if i break it
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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it will no doubt be better than what i had
I had an Eagle CP30 and really liked that machine. I just did not use it enough and with a small shop I was constantly moving it out of my way. I had the model with the base and it folded down so you could roll horizontally also.
You should be very happy.
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:40 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I had an Eagle CP30 and really liked that machine. I just did not use it enough and with a small shop I was constantly moving it out of my way. I had the model with the base and it folded down so you could roll horizontally also.
You should be very happy.
i'm itching to get my hands on it. the guy at Eagle sent me confirmation it would be here friday.

i'm super lucky to have a very decent sized space to work in.
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Old 02-09-2020, 07:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Make sure you keep this thread updated with all the cool stuff your rolling once you get it.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:38 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Make sure you keep this thread updated with all the cool stuff your rolling once you get it.
you can probably tell by my post count, i've mostly been a lurk and learn type. and join date, i've been here a while, literally learned more here than college.

i've got to learn to post pics, i plan to keep up with this and maybe start a shop projects thread.
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