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Old 02-05-2020, 09:35 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Actual suspension tuning!

Been trying to read up on suspension tuning for my sxs(talon 4 seat) 99% of what's online is basically "send your shocks to xxxxx, you won't regret it" which I don't doubt. However, I don't believe there is anything magical inside these shocks, and I'd like to see what I can do myself.

One thing that is completely foreign to me, but seems to be normal in the sxs world, is external adjustment. Being that I'm totally green to shock tuning, this would be a sweet way to go. Unfortunately honda used some relatively cheap fox qs3 shocks with only a 3 place compression adjustment. I *think* 8 can upgrade with this kit.

Fox stage 3 kit, $550 retail per pair isn't bad for 3 way adjustment.


https://www.ridefox.com/upgrades.php...cks&ref=topnav



STAGE 3: DUAL-SPEED COMPRESSION, REBOUND, AND RACING PARTS

Upgrade to the same performance and features as our 2.0 Piggyback RC2 coil-over shock.

Includes DSC (see above), rebound adjustment, FOX high-flow racing piston, and valving set up.



Or, for my use, I'd love ori struts, but that's a little outside the budget.


https://jensenbrosoffroad.com/produc...rzr-ori-struts

Also, what about air bumps? It's not something I've ever seen or heard of on a sxs before, but seems like it could work well.

Last edited by YotaAtieToo; 02-05-2020 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 02-05-2020, 02:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Everything you just mentioned I've thought about as well. The stock shocks are meh at best, and the springs on them are stupid. I was looking at Elka replacements but the price is a bit much to swallow, and I dont think ORIs would be a good choice for a go fast machine. I plan to race short course & MX in mine at Texplex in the near future, and know the shocks and springs on it now won't cut it for the way I drive.

$550 a pair to have FOX make them dual speed compression and rebound adjustable is a pretty good deal IMO. I've also been looking at the Eibach Stage 2 pro-utv spring set. So for just about $2k, you will end up with a bad ass shock/spring package.

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Old 02-06-2020, 11:20 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I think the ori's can work good in some go fast applications, but I don't think I'd pick them for what you are doing either.

I'm honestly not sure if that kit will work with our shocks or not, I have no idea what is involved in the external adjustment.

Didn't @Beat95YJ used to work for fox? Maybe he can help a fellow out?
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Old 02-07-2020, 07:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Iím just heading out to the lake right now. I need coffee. When I get back to service, Iíll look at this. I didnít Consult for power sports, but I know a guy that currently works there.
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Old 02-07-2020, 08:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Iím just heading out to the lake right now. I need coffee. When I get back to service, Iíll look at this. I didnít Consult for power sports, but I know a guy that currently works there.
Are you saying that going to koh is more interesting than golf cart shocks?

I always thought a 2.0 shock was a 2.0 shock, (aside from resi/non resi or shaft side) but maybe not.

Do you know why it seems like external adjustment is almost unheard of in full size rigs, but basically standard in utv's?
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Old 02-08-2020, 08:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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IMO more adjustability is a good thing. There are lots of variables in the shock absorbers but if you have a quality 2.0, I would run it until you are lasting down the road beyond its limits. Especially if itís aluminum body it will radiate you fairly effectively.

If I had to guess why more UTVs have adjustability than full-size vehicles, I would think it is because their overall weight and usage varies by a greater percentage. The shock valving I would want for rock crawling would most likely be different from what I would want bashing through the desert at high-speed. I donít think I would really care if I was towing a utility trailer around the farm.

Also two skinny kids will effect the chassis weight much less than two fat guys. The difference is more significant in a 2500 pound UTV, then a 4600 pound jeep. Itís hard to make one vehicle to everything, and I feel like UTVs are built for a wider use than cars/trucks.

I have a question to my friend about this and will see if he answers.

FWIW, the Honda test drives at KOH booked up way faster than the Yamaha. I did not see Polaris or Can-Am this year.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:05 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I fully plan to use mine for everything but deep mud. Which is why I'd like to external adjustment. Springing it will be difficult. I'll have to shoot for a median weight and try to cheat with preload I guess.

The good thing is, I don't really know what a really good suspension is, so I'll probably be happy with whatever

What about air bumps? I don't think I've ever seen them on a sxs.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:10 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I am not super familiar with the Honda shocks. Are they internal bypass? If they are they probably have a bump zone and don’t need an extra bump stop. If you do decide to put bump stops I would start with the rear because that’s where the weight is. I think a UTV front end is very light, and I don’t think he would see all the benefit of a 2 inch bump stop. Put a zip tie on the piston rod and see if you are bottoming out the shocks. If you aren’t bottoming them, I don’t see the value.
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Last edited by Beat95YJ; 02-08-2020 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Text to talk makes me look like I cannot spell
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:21 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I am not super familiar with the Honda shocks. Are they internal bypass? If they are they probably have a bump zone and donít need an extra bump stop. If you do decide to put bump stops I would start with the rear because thatís where the weight is. I think a UTV front end is very light, and I donít think he would see all the benefit of a 2 inch bump stop. Put a zip tie on the piston rod and see if you are bottoming out the shocks. If you arenít bottoming them, I donít see the value.
No, honda used cheap shocks. Some of the high end Polaris and can ams have 3.0 internal by pass shocks.

That makes sense, it would be much easier to mount the bumps on the rear anyway. It's a trailing arm with the shock about right in the middle. I'm guessing the bump should be between the shock and the wheel?
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:26 AM   #10 (permalink)
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No, honda used cheap shocks. Some of the high end Polaris and can ams have 3.0 internal by pass shocks.

That makes sense, it would be much easier to mount the bumps on the rear anyway. It's a trailing arm with the shock about right in the middle. I'm guessing the bump should be between the shock and the wheel?
I have always put the bump to the axle. On a irs trailing arm, Iíd try to put it as close to the wheel as practical.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I have always put the bump to the axle. On a irs trailing arm, Iíd try to put it as close to the wheel as practical.
That's what I first thought, but then I didn't know that being so much lighter, some mechanical advantage may help.
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:44 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Pardon the redneck in me, but how dumb would it be to spring the rig for the lightest load possible then add helper air bags in front of the shock on the trailing arm?

I'd probably pull them off if I went to the dunes or desert.

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Old 02-08-2020, 09:45 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Very?
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:36 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Very?


I'm just worried about it being either way too stiff when empty or bottomed out when loaded up.

I'm talking 1600 lbs in the summer in sand or desert mode to possibly 2500 lbs loaded up.

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Old 02-08-2020, 12:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I'm just worried about it being either way too stiff when empty or bottomed out when loaded up.

I'm talking 1600 lbs in the summer in sand or desert mode to possibly 2500 lbs loaded up.
i would think maybe pick up a second set of coil overs and swap out summer/ winter. or maybe just swap springs.

or create multiple mounting points on the trailing arm? i think it would mess with the amount of wheel travel. though maybe travel can be sacrificed for ride in the winter.

just thinking out loud might. might be a terrible idea. i'll be interested in what you come up with.


i know on the only big trip i've made with my rzr i played arounf with the shock settings, but i couldn't find a happy place between too soft and the backend bucking. i think i'm going to start with new springs, but it might be a couple months before i get longer than half a day to mess with it more.

i've got alot to learn about suspension.
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Old 02-08-2020, 02:59 PM   #16 (permalink)
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you make things about 1000000X more complicated than you need to
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Old 02-08-2020, 03:08 PM   #17 (permalink)
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i would think maybe pick up a second set of coil overs and swap out summer/ winter. or maybe just swap springs.

or create multiple mounting points on the trailing arm? i think it would mess with the amount of wheel travel. though maybe travel can be sacrificed for ride in the winter.

just thinking out loud might. might be a terrible idea. i'll be interested in what you come up with.


i know on the only big trip i've made with my rzr i played arounf with the shock settings, but i couldn't find a happy place between too soft and the backend bucking. i think i'm going to start with new springs, but it might be a couple months before i get longer than half a day to mess with it more.

i've got alot to learn about suspension.
It's not just winter to summer. That would be too easy.

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you make things about 1000000X more complicated than you need to
You don't think I know

I had the same issue in my 4runner. It was always dragging ass on camping trips, especially since the shit all went behind the rear axle. And that was with 1 kid!

I'll probably just shoot for the middle and play with preload when I have to.
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Old 02-09-2020, 07:47 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Yota, I went to the local track (Texplex) yesterday to watch SxS MX racing. I met the owner of Hess Motorsports there and got to check out his PRO class Talon. He is still running the factory Fox shocks with mods. He said G-Force Racing in Tennessee is the place to send them. The owner of G-Force is a UTV racer and understands these shocks well.

His were modified with dual speed compression adjusters, a rebound adjuster, modified caps with schrader valves, along with spring and valving changes. His Talon was fast as fuck over the ruff stuff and jumped nice and level. I'm planning on giving G-Force a call Monday to check on pricing and turn around time.

On another note..... I'm going UTV racing! Wife gave me the OK to go full retard on the Talon. Race seat and 5pt harness was ordered last night, and sometime this week I'll be picking up 1-3/4" .095 DOM, and some smaller & lighter stuff to build a real cage. The guy from Hess Motorsports let me climb all over his Talon. I took pictures of everything and he explained what was needed to be competitive.

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Old 02-09-2020, 08:21 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Good deal! Good to know the 3 way adjustment can be added. You should start a "build" thread

My use is far from racing. Mostly just want a comfortable ride for the family. My interests in tuning the shocks are half for that reason and half just because I'm curious about shock tuning.

I looked into ori's more last night. They seem to make more sense with a varying load, at least in the rear. When I start to add up the coil over up grades and air bumps, the non resi ori's aren't that expensive at around $750 ea retail. Of course I'd need to get my own nitrogen kit to be able to to adjust the pressure for different loads.

The biggest advantage of the coilovers is that I have them already so most likely I'll at least play with spring rates.

Not having my machine for over 3 weeks has given me too much time to think about stupid shit.
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Old 02-09-2020, 08:43 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Still dont have it back? That BLOWS!!!!!

I'd be asking Honda for a new one...
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Old 02-09-2020, 09:50 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Iím just throwing this out there maybe just get the factory oil out of the shocks and try a different weight oil and try some different springs before replacing the stock shocks. Itís good too see some feedback on these new machines thereís not much talk on the sxs forums on how what too do itís just send then to this guy for the time of $2k and he can make then right . They canít be much different than a dirt bike shock change oil and play the shim game aka shock valving but time is money


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Old 02-09-2020, 10:04 AM   #22 (permalink)
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And this is how your $20,000.00 machine quickly turns into $30,000.00!!!!

Iím just jealous..... you win the lotto or what????


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Old 02-09-2020, 11:21 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Stupid spring rates seem to be consistent across most SXS. My Polaris has Fox Internal Bypasses, but it still had very dumb, always-coil-bound tender springs. I swapped it to Eibachs and a dual-rate setup, and it's now amazing. I know the internals of yours are very different, but I think i probably push the machine about like you do--bumming around on trails, making sure my wife isn't too far outside her comfort zone, and the occasional steep climb. I need a suspension that at least does a very good job of soaking up rough terrain, and most of the other stuff is secondary. The springs only have been absolutely perfect for me. Since then, it rides much better since it's a true dual-stage, and flies MUCH more predictably than it ever has, even though that's not really my thing. I did make one jump at the sand dunes that was probably 30' or better in the air, and it soaked it all up.

For your big weight changes--you could always just adjust the preload. Once you lift the thing in the air, it's pretty easy to just grab the spring packs and start spinning them, and add preload. It will of course screw up your 2 stage adjustment, but that's also not difficult to change.
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Old 02-09-2020, 01:16 PM   #24 (permalink)
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And this is how your $20,000.00 machine quickly turns into $30,000.00!!!!

Iím just jealous..... you win the lotto or what????


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Old 02-15-2020, 08:18 AM   #25 (permalink)
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So I found a part number on my tinder springs. No luck on Google though.

fox 039-00-503-8

Any ideas?
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