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Old 08-29-2017, 10:13 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Inner tube duallies for floatation

I've seen it multiple times but I don't know what its called. People strap a big inner tube to their tires doubling their foot print. I'm trying to google how people have done it but can't get past people tubing down hills. What is it called?
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Old 08-29-2017, 10:21 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think they only work on Brown Suburbans.

Please check into the I NEED HELP thread for more advice.

Not to be an ass but somebody said there was no such thing as a dumb question.

They were mistaken.

Playing my asshole card, been cranky all week so far. Rotsa Ruck.
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Old 09-02-2017, 07:38 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Basically redneck engineering. I doubt it is any different from the ways that we used to build dual tires for equipment. You need a steel wheel so you can weld on the attachment points. Pretty sure you will need a ring of some sort that sticks out to center the tube, then points to attache the ropes to hold it all on. In the end, you will probably wind up poking a big stick through one when you can least afford to have it happen.

Putting on a dual tire setup would probably be easier since a tube likes to crawl away from anything that pushes on it and ropes will fall off as soon as the pressure in the tube drops from a hole; be it a pinhole or a slash.

I think most guys have given up on these type of things with the advent of big tires and Toyota's since full sizes are too heavy unless you strip them totally down or play on hard snow and big tires or tracks are a solution that does not have to be constantly watched for failure.

Now, if you are talking about a temporary solution for that O'h Shit moment, then perhaps it might be feasible but you are doing a lot of work that can probably be accomplished in a different manner.

As for me, I've given up on the rig thing for snow. I will still wheel in the light stuff but once it gets deep, I'll be bringing out the snowcat.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:18 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Copy that. It definetly doesn't strike me as the best solution to a problem. I'm trying to ready up on it to see if it'd be worthwhile to set something up for my rzr. Tracks or a second set of wheels and tires are way more effort/money then I want to invest on exploring a new kind of wheeling. This is the first toy I've had that's light enough to even consider trying to stay on top of the white stuff.
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Old 09-03-2017, 10:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Razr's are cool but without tracks they are way too heavy for the little tires they put on there. They will do good up to about a foot deep, just like a quad but after that, it better be hard and a thick crust or you are going to spend time shoveling.
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Old 09-04-2017, 01:40 PM   #7 (permalink)
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That's a bummer to hear. I thought 1500-1700# would really open up some options come winter
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Old 09-04-2017, 09:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Years ago I knew a guy that put used dirt track tires all the way around on a stripped jeep for snow wheeling, they were grooved into a fairly aggressive AT style pattern and slapped on cheap wide steelies. I think they were off a late model sportsman class or something and he got them dirt cheap.
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Old 09-30-2017, 07:56 PM   #10 (permalink)
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This is the first toy I've had that's light enough to even consider trying to stay on top of the white stuff.
What about sand tires?

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Old 10-01-2017, 12:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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What about sand tires?

Just dig to China in snow without huge HP.
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Old 10-02-2017, 01:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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That's a bummer to hear. I thought 1500-1700# would really open up some options come winter
If I'm understanding your post your side by side is around 1,600lbs.?

If so, you could try a little formula I use to determine what size of tire you need to stay on top of the white stuff.
This isn't an exact science but will give you good idea of a vehicles snow performance based on vehicle weight and tire size when aired down (i.e. a tires footprint).

Lets say your side by side vehicle weighs 2,000lbs. wheeling ready with all gear/tools and driver included.
So basically when aired down to real low (were talking very low single digits for air pressure) you want the footprint of the tire to allow for a ratio of around 2lbs. per square inch of flotation; or contact on the ground for excellent results on snow (this number of 2lbs. per square inch is what I have come to believe is a fair representation of what works extremely well).

This formula if you will call it that has come from measuring the footprints of highly capable snow wheeling trucks/Jeeps etc.'s tires. This along with reasonably accurate vehicle weights over the years all comes together as an approximation and is in no way a perfect calculation for all vehicles; as stated earlier there are many variables that come into play.

So in this case of a 2,000lb. vehicle the tires should allow for a combined 1000ft. lbs per square inch (so 250" square inches for each tire) making the vehicle apply approximately 2lbs. per square inch.

Lets try mounting up some basic M/T radials in size 31" x 10.50" and see what we get for this scenario (I do recognize these 31" tires are a tall tire for a side by side, however a shorter wider tire could do the trick just as easily).

So just multiply the tires height 31" by pi (3.14) for the circumference (31" x 3.14 = 97" for the circumference).

Then multiple 97" by 25% (25% is my given amount for approximating the length of the tires foot print that touches the ground when aired down. This particular ratio changes with bias ply or radial tires (generally radial tires will offer a larger footprint as they're carcass is more flexible as compared to most bias ply tires). Also this ratio was developed from years of measuring the footprint of aired down 4x4 tires.

Then multiply the length of the aired down footprint 97" x .25(%)= 24" long (the 25% measures 24"). Now multiply the length by the width (length is 24" long by the tires width of 10.50") (10.50" x 24" = 255" square) and you get a approximate size of the aired down tires footprint.

Finally we times the 255" square single tire measurement by #4 (#4 tires on the side by side) and we have just over a 1,000" square inches (255" square x #4 =1020" square). Making the side by side have a flotation performance of about 2lbs. per square inch.

This should offer incredible performance n deep snow.

Another example is from the many hardcore snow wheelers that live and wheel in the south Okanagan, Canada.

Lets take a big block equipped, manual transmission Jeep/Land Cruiser/Truck with Gama Goat IFS/IRS axles/suspension set-up (a common set-up for the serious wheelers) with numerous weight savings tricks performed to get the weight down to around 5,000lbs running 46" x 19.50" M/T Baja Claws.

So 46" height times pi (3.14) 46" x 3.14=144" circumference.

Then 144" x 25%= 36" long tire footprint. Finally 36" x 18" (18" is an approximate width when running wide 12"-14" wide bead-lock wheels) gets it down to approximately 650" square inches for each tire.

This 650" squared inches for each tire times all #4 tires equals a total pressure of about 2,600Lbs distributed over the #4 tires.

So again with this scenario the vehicle also produces less then 2lbs. per square inch.

In conclusion a side by side weighing about 2,000lbs. with 31"x 10.50" tires has similar flotation as a 5,000lb. big 46" claw wheeling rig.

There are a lot factors that go into vehicle performance in deep snow, but flotation like snow shoes basically is one of the most important factors to take into consideration when building a snow slaying 4x4. If you want to perform with the big and not so big rigs in the powder getting the weight down (as in every pound counts) is crucial and running a tire that creates s lot of flotation is key.

I should say that regarding all the dually flotation tube ideas I've read about/seen in magazines etc. due to lack of punter resistance they were only seen used for water crossings only. Those were non-professional set-ups that just strapped the tubes to the tires (not a very reliable set-up).
However there was a company offering huge hard plastic donut style tires that were designed to attach to the wheels more securely then just straps, (I think they used an inner wheel that bolted to the factory wheels some how, but unfortunately I was not able to recall/discover the companies name/info.

Cheers D

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Old 10-04-2017, 10:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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These might work for you. Jwheelz - a new bolt-on attachment for ATVs and UTVs
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If I'm understanding your post your side by side is around 1,600lbs.?

If so, you could try a little formula I use to determine what size of tire you need to stay on top of the white stuff.
This isn't an exact science but will give you good idea of a vehicles snow performance based on vehicle weight and tire size when aired down (i.e. a tires footprint).

Lets say your side by side vehicle weighs 2,000lbs. wheeling ready with all gear/tools and driver included.
So basically when aired down to real low (were talking very low single digits for air pressure) you want the footprint of the tire to allow for a ratio of around 2lbs. per square inch of flotation; or contact on the ground for excellent results on snow (this number of 2lbs. per square inch is what I have come to believe is a fair representation of what works extremely well).

This formula if you will call it that has come from measuring the footprints of highly capable snow wheeling trucks/Jeeps etc.'s tires. This along with reasonably accurate vehicle weights over the years all comes together as an approximation and is in no way a perfect calculation for all vehicles; as stated earlier there are many variables that come into play.

So in this case of a 2,000lb. vehicle the tires should allow for a combined 1000ft. lbs per square inch (so 250" square inches for each tire) making the vehicle apply approximately 2lbs. per square inch.

Lets try mounting up some basic M/T radials in size 31" x 10.50" and see what we get for this scenario (I do recognize these 31" tires are a tall tire for a side by side, however a shorter wider tire could do the trick just as easily).

So just multiply the tires height 31" by pi (3.14) for the circumference (31" x 3.14 = 97" for the circumference).

Then multiple 97" by 25% (25% is my given amount for approximating the length of the tires foot print that touches the ground when aired down. This particular ratio changes with bias ply or radial tires (generally radial tires will offer a larger footprint as they're carcass is more flexible as compared to most bias ply tires). Also this ratio was developed from years of measuring the footprint of aired down 4x4 tires.

Then multiply the length of the aired down footprint 97" x .25(%)= 24" long (the 25% measures 24"). Now multiply the length by the width (length is 24" long by the tires width of 10.50") (10.50" x 24" = 255" square) and you get a approximate size of the aired down tires footprint.

Finally we times the 255" square single tire measurement by #4 (#4 tires on the side by side) and we have just over a 1,000" square inches (255" square x #4 =1020" square). Making the side by side have a flotation performance of about 2lbs. per square inch.

This should offer incredible performance n deep snow.

Another example is from the many hardcore snow wheelers that live and wheel in the south Okanagan, Canada.

Lets take a big block equipped, manual transmission Jeep/Land Cruiser/Truck with Gama Goat IFS/IRS axles/suspension set-up (a common set-up for the serious wheelers) with numerous weight savings tricks performed to get the weight down to around 5,000lbs running 46" x 19.50" M/T Baja Claws.

So 46" height times pi (3.14) 46" x 3.14=144" circumference.

Then 144" x 25%= 36" long tire footprint. Finally 36" x 18" (18" is an approximate width when running wide 12"-14" wide bead-lock wheels) gets it down to approximately 650" square inches for each tire.

This 650" squared inches for each tire times all #4 tires equals a total pressure of about 2,600Lbs distributed over the #4 tires.

So again with this scenario the vehicle also produces less then 2lbs. per square inch.

In conclusion a side by side weighing about 2,000lbs. with 31"x 10.50" tires has similar flotation as a 5,000lb. big 46" claw wheeling rig.

There are a lot factors that go into vehicle performance in deep snow, but flotation like snow shoes basically is one of the most important factors to take into consideration when building a snow slaying 4x4. If you want to perform with the big and not so big rigs in the powder getting the weight down (as in every pound counts) is crucial and running a tire that creates s lot of flotation is key.

I should say that regarding all the dually flotation tube ideas I've read about/seen in magazines etc. due to lack of punter resistance they were only seen used for water crossings only. Those were non-professional set-ups that just strapped the tubes to the tires (not a very reliable set-up).
However there was a company offering huge hard plastic donut style tires that were designed to attach to the wheels more securely then just straps, (I think they used an inner wheel that bolted to the factory wheels some how, but unfortunately I was not able to recall/discover the companies name/info.

Cheers D
I tried this calculation method before and it doesn't transfer to real world. my 2800lb jeep on 37x12.5 tires has almost the same footprint as my buddies 5500lb buggy on 54x19.5 tires. yet in the same snow, I sink almost 6" while he only sinks 2" .....

I think there are way to many variables that make a good snow wheeler to make it a science
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:15 PM   #15 (permalink)
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That's a bummer to hear. I thought 1500-1700# would really open up some options come winter
it does if you jump to a 33" or bigger tire, but with that comes lower gearing or portals and clutching improvements, axle upgrades, etc
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Old 10-05-2017, 08:11 PM   #16 (permalink)
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What about sand tires?

Like the other guy mentioned they dig to fast but maxxis makes a set of 4snow paddle tires for sport atvs. I ran a set and they were amazing. They were more like a drag slick wrinkle wall off a top fuel dragster with small directional paddles. On icy terrain you'd run them so the paddles would lay flat, but turn them around for soft snow so the paddles would stand up. I could wheelie on ice. They were 22" tall but by 3rd gear they'd stretch and be closer to 25" tall.

It ain't much for a video but this hill is a drift 3 feet deep or more. I couldn't drive down it but up was no challenge. I could out wheel all 4wd atvs quite easily. Even lifted ones on 30" tires.


https://youtu.be/xiqJC9w4Xoc
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I would try some 33x12.5r15 mud terrains. My 35 Kevlars were pretty impressive in the snow on my 4500 lb 4runner.
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Old 10-05-2017, 09:07 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Like the other guy mentioned they dig to fast but maxxis makes a set of 4snow paddle tires for sport atvs. I ran a set and they were amazing. They were more like a drag slick wrinkle wall off a top fuel dragster with small directional paddles. On icy terrain you'd run them so the paddles would lay flat, but turn them around for soft snow so the paddles would stand up. I could wheelie on ice. They were 22" tall but by 3rd gear they'd stretch and be closer to 25" tall.

It ain't much for a video but this hill is a drift 3 feet deep or more. I couldn't drive down it but up was no challenge. I could out wheel all 4wd atvs quite easily. Even lifted ones on 30" tires.


https://youtu.be/xiqJC9w4Xoc
That's cool and all, but it's not really snow wheelin when you can see dirt patches
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Old 10-06-2017, 05:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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That's cool and all, but it's not really snow wheelin when you can see dirt patches

Like I said it's a poor video. Just all I had from back in the day. The grizzly I was riding with was burried to the racks at the bottom of the hill. The snow is over 3 feet deep on the hill but I had enough traction and power to stay on top. The tires are really cool and would work well if built to scale.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Like I said it's a poor video. Just all I had from back in the day. The grizzly I was riding with was burried to the racks at the bottom of the hill. The snow is over 3 feet deep on the hill but I had enough traction and power to stay on top. The tires are really cool and would work well if built to scale.
My point was that it's not hard to bomb up a snow covered hill when you can get a bunch of speed on dirt or thin snow. I could make it a few hundred yards into 5' snow drifts on my dirt bike, because I could get a ton of speed on the dirt before it, but that doesn't mean it did well in the snow.

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Old 10-11-2017, 08:47 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I tried this calculation method before and it doesn't transfer to real world. my 2800lb jeep on 37x12.5 tires has almost the same footprint as my buddies 5500lb buggy on 54x19.5 tires. yet in the same snow, I sink almost 6" while he only sinks 2" .....

I think there are way to many variables that make a good snow wheeler to make it a science
I hear you on the fact about there being many variables the driver being a huge one. One other factor comes immediate to mind when comparing a lighter rig on 37"s to another on 49"s is the rolling height of the centreline of the tires.
What I mean is that the taller tires will always have an advantage when it comes to rolling over the terrain or snow in this case as they will be able to ride more easily over the higher undulations in the snow.

Saying all that a Jeep running a 37" tire with it's air pressure down very low say 2psi. or less weighing 2,800lbs. should have wicked snow capabilities.

While there's more advantage to running a wider tire for the gains in flotation over a taller tire the height gained from a taller tire can't be ruled out due to it's ability to maintain a higher centreline (thereby making the rolling resistance significantly easier).

86Chevyjoe were you running similar psi numbers as your buddy with the 49's because the gains from running 4-5psi. as compared to 2psi. is significant and the gains from running 2psi. to a 1/4psi. is significant again. This has been confirmed from measuring the aired down footprints at several different pressures. (i.e. a tire lowered down to 2psi. from 5psi. may gain an increase in it's footprint equal to the same gains in footprint that a 10psi. tire gains going down to 5psi. which can be a lot.)

I suppose the larger 44"+ tires offer so much more sidewall height (many locals only run a 15" or 16" wheel) particularly when compared to say a -38" tire especially when both are aired down to low single digit pressures.

Perhaps it has more to do with the low air pressures (i.e. a 1/4psi. that I know 44"+ tired wheelers run) that are available/offered from running a higher sidewall that makes for the increased flotation. While I agree there are more variables the science behind the flotation measurements is a sound one.

Beadlocks or other means for securing tires beads at extremely low pressure are another factor not to be over looked; even the fact the larger 44"+ tires do not squish as much since they can spread the load over a much larger surface area may play a important role too.

For consideration one of the most capable vehicles we have up here in the Okanagan runs on 46" Claws or 49" Iroks and weighs under 4,500lbs. with big block power/full flares/full soft top...

Cheers D
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:54 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Years ago I knew a guy that put used dirt track tires all the way around on a stripped jeep for snow wheeling, they were grooved into a fairly aggressive AT style pattern and slapped on cheap wide steelies. I think they were off a late model sportsman class or something and he got them dirt cheap.
I got a buddy did the same thing to his Razor, works fantastic, he may quit using his jeep for snow wheeling. look at Rick Pratt facebook photo and vids,
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Old 01-10-2018, 05:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I got a buddy did the same thing to his Razor, works fantastic, he may quit using his jeep for snow wheeling. look at Rick Pratt facebook photo and vids,
Yeah his worked really good and I keep thinking he got the tires for like $50 for set after PO grooved them too much for his use. The jeep was a el cheapo 4cyl yj with cj clip, and stripped to only 2 plastic summit racing seats and the stock roll bar hoop, no dorrs/top/heater etc.
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