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Old 09-24-2011, 10:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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My under construction Samurai

So I traded some stuff for this zuk and been tweaking it since. 1.6 sidekick engine. Rocky road coil kit (already installed BTW) My intentions with this samurai is to be able to drive it and wheel it. the suspension is really wonky. Angles all wrong etc etc negative castor heres some pics when i got it.





so I modded the arms so i could adjust the castor angle. then i fixed the panhard bar.



This samurai still drives like a bucket of slop it has lockers frt and rear so i know the street manners are gonna be sorta weird but after scratching my head i think the rear end needs attention it wanders all over the road so bad its pretty scary. its as 1/16 toe in 3.5 degrees positive castor front end is all square, but the rear as this goofy bushing in the wishbone and i noticed alot of side to side play in it and its tight i think it needs a johnny joint their instead to keep the rear axle square with the world.
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:32 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I can't see the bushing on the wishbone, it's up too high. the joint I CAN see is on the lower link, it looks like a johnny joint already.
. try replacing the rubber bushings with polyurethane, it should help a lot.
nice body, rims, tires, suspension and whatnot.
yeah, if that wishbone is sloppy, your rear end will wander for sure. the upper bushings would be a lot more important it seems than the one on the axle top for centering the axle.
.. I wonder if you'd just put an upper link,(not wishbone), and then put a panhard(traction) bar like on the front end, I bet you'd get real nice and tight on the rear end.
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Old 09-25-2011, 01:34 AM   #3 (permalink)
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ok, i just gotta say it, that oil pan and valve cover green gotta go....
it matches nothing else on the rig. I got some extra gloss black in a can if you need...
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Old 09-25-2011, 02:00 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Yes I agree the green is something from a bad 80's film for sure! the big rubber bushing on top of the axle is the joint in question. It just looks like it does a horrible job keeping the axle centered. I think with a jonny joint it should keep it more centered I would think. I dont have enough room for a rear panhard otherwise i would build one for it. I'm half tempted to put leaf springs back under the rear.
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Old 09-25-2011, 03:20 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I don't think that joint on top the axle is giving you sideways slop. if the bushing was really bad or gone, I think you'd get some forward and back slop at the top which would be changing your caster angle.
if the bushing was gone, you'd only get a little sideways slop, no more than 1/2" I'd guess.
. if you're getting some rear steering effects, I'd say it would be more likely that each end of the axle may be going forward or back, rather than the top of the axle going sideways.
. how good/tight are the joints that hold onto the ends of your axles? jack up the rear end and wiggle things around and see where you might find some slop.
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Old 09-25-2011, 04:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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the bushing on top is where i found the lateral axle movement its no much but under a load like driving down the road i'm sure it magnified a good amount more than me just shaking it.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:30 AM   #7 (permalink)
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well, in that case, you just gotta see how much better it'll drive after you throw some poly bushings in the hole.
. Some suspension mods I did a long long time ago that didn't pan out involved some poly bushings in a strange place, lots of load on them. I found out that even poly wouldn't stand up to it, I had to go with steel. You may find out that poly won't work too.
.
You just gonna get a johnny joint or try poly? It might be worth it to just say screw the soft stuff and go right for a steel joint.
makes me wonder if a ball joint mounted on top the axle wouldn't be good, too. I wonder if they have enough movement angle.
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Old 09-26-2011, 02:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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yea prolly a johnny joint they seem about the only joint with enough rotation to work. Id also like to get rid of the locker in favor of a spool.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:07 AM   #9 (permalink)
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have you ever run a spool/welded diff? which end is the locker in? if it's in the back and you're not used to it, that could definitely be the strange handling. you gotta learn to do everything gently, clutch, brake, gas, and steering. well, you have to smoothly change what you're doing. like take your foot off the gas smooth and apply brakes smooth, that kind of thing.
then about 80% of the banging and weirdness goes away.
. I had a welded diff, I'd never do it again. it's ALWAYS scrubbing rubber off your tires unless you're going perfectly straight, and makes it super hard to turn the wheel, and gives a HUGE turning radius in most cases. the auto-lockers automatically let one tire go faster to stop the scrubbing and make it real easy to turn.
.
I'd definitely recommend against a welded diff up front, I did that, regretted it from the first day.
. If you got a rear locker, throw it in the front and put an open in the rear. it'll still be point and go. you'll be able to do 90% of what you could with 2 lockers. and you'll have perfect street manners.
well, that's my opinion anyway, gotten through experience of driving a sammy since 1990. I had front only locked/welded, rear only, both, every kind of combo. a front and rear locker is the ultimate of course. no cables, wires, air lines, fooling with anything. completely automatic and forget about it. if you can point at it, you can go over it.
.
.
. say, I just noticed you're in oregon. I was wanting to move there pretty bad. out to the northeast corner of the state, maybe southeast corner. either that or the SE corner of washington. you out on that side? how is it there? I've passed through, but not long enough to check out climate/weather or anything.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cajunsuzukispider View Post
have you ever run a spool/welded diff? which end is the locker in? if it's in the back and you're not used to it, that could definitely be the strange handling. you gotta learn to do everything gently, clutch, brake, gas, and steering. well, you have to smoothly change what you're doing. like take your foot off the gas smooth and apply brakes smooth, that kind of thing.
then about 80% of the banging and weirdness goes away.
. I had a welded diff, I'd never do it again. it's ALWAYS scrubbing rubber off your tires unless you're going perfectly straight, and makes it super hard to turn the wheel, and gives a HUGE turning radius in most cases. the auto-lockers automatically let one tire go faster to stop the scrubbing and make it real easy to turn.
.
I'd definitely recommend against a welded diff up front, I did that, regretted it from the first day.
. If you got a rear locker, throw it in the front and put an open in the rear. it'll still be point and go. you'll be able to do 90% of what you could with 2 lockers. and you'll have perfect street manners.
well, that's my opinion anyway, gotten through experience of driving a sammy since 1990. I had front only locked/welded, rear only, both, every kind of combo. a front and rear locker is the ultimate of course. no cables, wires, air lines, fooling with anything. completely automatic and forget about it. if you can point at it, you can go over it.
.
.
. say, I just noticed you're in oregon. I was wanting to move there pretty bad. out to the northeast corner of the state, maybe southeast corner. either that or the SE corner of washington. you out on that side? how is it there? I've passed through, but not long enough to check out climate/weather or anything.


I live on the west side of the state and it is wet most of the year and the summers are short. the east side is much dryer and warmer. the south end is like near the 100,s through the summer(that's where i spend most of my vacation time) we have the coast line with sand to play on, mountains with lots of mud, or we have the dessert to explore,(I sound like a salesman)

The problem with the east side is going to be employment opportunity,unless you have that covered.It's a Democrat state so they have been trying to shut every thing fun down,
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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awesome. I knew I felt like that was a good place.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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have you ever run a spool/welded diff? which end is the locker in? if it's in the back and you're not used to it, that could definitely be the strange handling. you gotta learn to do everything gently, clutch, brake, gas, and steering. well, you have to smoothly change what you're doing. like take your foot off the gas smooth and apply brakes smooth, that kind of thing.
then about 80% of the banging and weirdness goes away.
. I had a welded diff, I'd never do it again. it's ALWAYS scrubbing rubber off your tires unless you're going perfectly straight, and makes it super hard to turn the wheel, and gives a HUGE turning radius in most cases. the auto-lockers automatically let one tire go faster to stop the scrubbing and make it real easy to turn.
.
I'd definitely recommend against a welded diff up front, I did that, regretted it from the first day.
. If you got a rear locker, throw it in the front and put an open in the rear. it'll still be point and go. you'll be able to do 90% of what you could with 2 lockers. and you'll have perfect street manners.
well, that's my opinion anyway, gotten through experience of driving a sammy since 1990. I had front only locked/welded, rear only, both, every kind of combo. a front and rear locker is the ultimate of course. no cables, wires, air lines, fooling with anything. completely automatic and forget about it. if you can point at it, you can go over it.
.
.
. say, I just noticed you're in oregon. I was wanting to move there pretty bad. out to the northeast corner of the state, maybe southeast corner. either that or the SE corner of washington. you out on that side? how is it there? I've passed through, but not long enough to check out climate/weather or anything.
Ya i'm well aware of the spool vs locker debate I just prefer the spool for predictibility etc. it has lockers front and rear. My biggest issue with it, Is at speed above about 40 it gets real hairy. It gets so twitchy and its just all over the road any whoop in the road and it will just suck ya right onto the shoulder or other lane but i cant notice any bumpsteer at all with it. I'm thinking i may swap it all back over to leaf springs. It might be just to narrow and short wheelbase to have coil springs on the street. Or it needs way more caster and some stiffer springs and swaybars. I dont need it to be a daily driver so i can live with the qwerky locker and what not, but it needs to go down the highway like a somewhat normall manner. Anywhere in the Eastern part of oregon is pretty tough cold as hell in the winter and hot as hell in the summer. their is really nothing over their but desert and a few towns here and their. Used to go rabbit hunting over in christmas valley alot.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think the front radius arms need more vertical separation
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I am by no means a link suspension expert but I will offer up a few words of wisdom.

One, your caster is not enough. You should be in the 6 degree range. 3 degrees is what the stock spec is and is not enough with oversized and wider rims/tires.

Two, the angle of your radius arms are very steep. Even though nothing is binding, they are very steep to the frame and is causing a very large caster change through small suspension movement. If that axle droops an inch or two, your caster is probably going negative. This will cause that steering to wander and pull everywhere.

Three, your ride height is very tall for the wheelbase. If you come down a few inches, your panhard and draglink will flatten out and cause less body roll. The higher the angle on the panhard, the more roll is induced. This will also help out your front driveshaft angle.

It looks like your coils are directly under the frame. You should get buckets that mount to the side of the front frame rails to lower it down a bit. Then move your radius arms out to the sides of the frame rail as well.

Rocky Road...nuff said
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:27 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I am not a link expert either maybe enough to be dangerous. I'm not sure how castor can change when both link points are in a fixed position maybe someone can explain that?? I talked with my local alignment guy today that's pretty exp with projects like this factory castor on a samurai is 4 degress plus or minus 1 degree. He said to much castor can cause it and it can dart side to side on the road which is what it does! combined with a shifting rear end it would be a bit scary (which it is) he suggested to really gusset up the steering box area maybe toe it in more. Said with high offset wheels it might help, up to about max 1/4 toe in. Then play with the castor angle with a short wheel base he said its touch n go. I did see some play in the steering box bracket so I'm gonna start their this week/weekend.
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:39 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Any radius arm setup has a large caster sweep during suspension cycling. This is why seperate upper arm/s are preferred due to many other advantages as well.

Too much positive caster is a bad thing but typically every Sami or Toyota I have dealt with tend to like 6 to 8 degrees positive caster for tracking and eliminating death wobble/pulling.

Your caster is sweeping hard, look at the rake on your radius arms.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:30 AM   #17 (permalink)
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and all this is exactly why I stayed away from multi-link setups. I know they can be great once done exactly right, but getting it exactly right can be very hard to do, and it's critical to be done right.
. I'm no expert on that stuff either, so I stayed away from it. If I had to get a multilink kit, I'd buy one, without question. instructions and a warranty are worth a lot.
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:26 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Well i never learn with easy stuff i jump in with both feet lol. I'm gonna keep on truckin till its right.
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Old 09-30-2011, 07:14 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Well I pulled the springs out of the front and checked what my caster does upon compression and droop. On compression I'm gaining caster to about 4.5 degrees. Full droop I'm still at about 2 to 2.5 degrees go its not dipping negative. I'm gonna build a panhard rod for the back this weekend see if that will stabalize the zuk. I have a feeling its rear steering. I do plan on lowering it about 2 inches soon .
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Old 10-01-2011, 05:54 AM   #20 (permalink)
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definitely sounds like a busy weekend. myself, I'm gonna pull out all the fuel injection and painless performance wiring, and wait for my kit to show up sometime this year.
oh, and to all the doubters out there who said I'd never be able to put in my air suspension ($4000), it's gonna be soon, soon as I move to north MO. I know my plans keep changing.
.
.
ok, if you put that panhard bar on there, then when that axle goes up and down, it's gonna describe an arc. you won't be able to use the wishbone top link. probably have to change that to just a single bar that mounts up in the middle of the body or frame.
. the only thing I don't like about the panhard bar setup is that if you're in the air and the axle drops, it'll go to one side, if you compress the whole axle upwards, like on landing, it goes to the other side. not good for getting air.
. Have you seen the 'old style' panhard system? it allows the whole axle to go up and down and stay perfectly centered. Let me try to get a picture up .......
ok, this center post on the axle has an arm that rotates around in a circle. each end of the arm has it's own short panhard bar to a framerail. this allowed flex, up and down movement, and kept the axle perfectly centered. it's real old school, most of us don't have room for it.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:26 PM   #21 (permalink)
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yea watts link setup, well I put a panhard on the back it did nothing to the handling. so I'm at a loss for ideas now.
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Old 10-01-2011, 02:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Theres a whole lot of wrong with that link setup.

First off it is way too tall, and the angle of your front links (viewed from the side) plus the fact that they are parallel with the frame (viewed from the top) is going to give you oversteer.

Second, the bushings at the axle end of the front links, combined with the amount of vertical separation you have at the axle is going to cause axle wrap.

Third, the craptastick wishbone style rear top link....the Way it is designed will not control the side to side movement ofmthe axle very well, you already know this.

Fourth, your rear lower links, same issue as the fronts, steep angle from the side, and parallel from the top, will cause oversteer.

If you don't know what oversteer is, think of it this way:
You make a right hand turn, the body of the vehicle leans left, the suspension on the left side compresses, and the links become flatter making the wheelbase on the left side get longer. At the same time the opposite is happening on the right side, causing the wheelbase on the right side to get shorter. It makes the vehicle steer to the right further than you want it to, and you have to compensate by backing off on the steering wheel.
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Old 10-01-2011, 04:32 PM   #23 (permalink)
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well the ass end isnt moving cause adding a panhard did nothing at all. the angles of the links i cant really change without huge drop down brackets etc. i'm gonna add some more toe in see if that affects anything.
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Old 10-01-2011, 05:40 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I would lower it about 6", that should help quite a bit.

Pan hard won't help with oversteer, neither will toe. Could be wrong thinking that oversteer is your issue. "bad handling" can mean a lot of things
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Old 10-01-2011, 05:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Theres a whole lot of wrong with that link setup.

First off it is way too tall, and the angle of your front links (viewed from the side) plus the fact that they are parallel with the frame (viewed from the top) is going to give you oversteer.

Second, the bushings at the axle end of the front links, combined with the amount of vertical separation you have at the axle is going to cause axle wrap.

Third, the craptastick wishbone style rear top link....the Way it is designed will not control the side to side movement ofmthe axle very well, you already know this.

Fourth, your rear lower links, same issue as the fronts, steep angle from the side, and parallel from the top, will cause oversteer.

If you don't know what oversteer is, think of it this way:
You make a right hand turn, the body of the vehicle leans left, the suspension on the left side compresses, and the links become flatter making the wheelbase on the left side get longer. At the same time the opposite is happening on the right side, causing the wheelbase on the right side to get shorter. It makes the vehicle steer to the right further than you want it to, and you have to compensate by backing off on the steering wheel.
very good point. Took me a bit to rap my head around that. I actually went out and straped down the driverside to compress the springs down to 9 inches and the wheelbase stretches drastically! On the one side which would cause it to steer itself then trying to correct that oversteer, Turns into one scary wobbly death trap on the road. I think i'm gonna order a shorter set of springs and drop brackets on the frame i cant get them flat but i can get them "closer" to flat.

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