Best short lift (1.5"-2") for on and off road - Old Man Emu? - Page 2 - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Yes, no problem at all. Bushings are interchangeable.
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Old 11-28-2018, 10:42 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Yes, no problem at all. Bushings are interchangeable.
What's the deal with poly vs rubber bushings?
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Old 11-28-2018, 11:37 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Rubber flexes better on a light car with low spring rates. Urethane really requires grease, which attracts dirt and promotes an abrasive sticky mess.

New urethane grades are much better than the old days, but I’ve pulled old but pristine urethane bushes out of shackles that were cracked due to the added fatigue load the urethane was transferring to the shackle.

Just be prepared to replace the rubber every years or so depending on how much the on road handling is important.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:56 AM   #29 (permalink)
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IMO, its hard to compete with trail-gear's samurai leaf springs. the only place the OME springs have them beat is in ride quality - but we're comparing a quality replacement leaf spring yo a "lift" spring. with the trail-gear springs, you won't have to clearance fenders, body seams, or add a body lift to run 31" tires.

also my opinion, but the 31" tire is the perfect tire for a DD samurai that see's offroad use.

like steve said, rubber bushings do dampen road vibrations but i like the longevity and stability of poly bushings on an offroad rig.

tcase gears are exactly what steve said - only improve performance in a samurai!
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:15 PM   #30 (permalink)
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But that’s the crux of the issue.

A 3” lift front Samurai spring can’t ride properly because it’s excessively cambered for its length. The only way it “fits” big tires is by being too stiff to fully compress. If you’re then adding bumpstop spacing to prevent tire contact, you’ve traded off ride quality (for that, read “traction”) and height (read “stability”) and flex (read “traction” again) in order to avoid flattening some seams and/or running a small body lift which doesn’t interfere with suspension function or raise COG anywhere near as much as suspension lift.

In my opinion, running 3” springs is a decision to make your car less capable and functional in order to run a larger tire, when the point of running the bigger tire was to make the car more capable and functional. Thats like owning stanced road car. Surely the idea is that you can make the suspension more functional and capable AND enjoy the increased functionality and capability the larger tire provides.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:44 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I wonder if the OP would benefit from a RUF conversion as well?
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Old 11-29-2018, 10:18 PM   #32 (permalink)
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sure, RUF is excellent and will deliver a very plush ride, but it's a ton of work to do properly so I assume it's beyond what the OP is willing to do considering they seem to want to run a small tire and drive easy terrain. They don't need lift and don't need the added flex, shackle positioning, shock choice, bumps top relocation etc issues RUF brings with it.

It's easy to talk people into overbuilding their cars to solve a problem they don't have.
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:39 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwagensteve View Post
But that’s the crux of the issue.

A 3” lift front Samurai spring can’t ride properly because it’s excessively cambered for its length. The only way it “fits” big tires is by being too stiff to fully compress. If you’re then adding bumpstop spacing to prevent tire contact, you’ve traded off ride quality (for that, read “traction”) and height (read “stability”) and flex (read “traction” again) in order to avoid flattening some seams and/or running a small body lift which doesn’t interfere with suspension function or raise COG anywhere near as much as suspension lift.

In my opinion, running 3” springs is a decision to make your car less capable and functional in order to run a larger tire, when the point of running the bigger tire was to make the car more capable and functional. Thats like owning stanced road car. Surely the idea is that you can make the suspension more functional and capable AND enjoy the increased functionality and capability the larger tire provides.


we're talking about a 3" spring on a covered wagon (samurai) here steve. not some long travel pre-runner. or 6-8" super stiff lift spring. bigger tires (and their supplement upgrades) DO increase offroad capability. not everybody is like us and wants to cut fenders and have the lowest rig ever with the biggest tires.

some guys want just a little lift and larger rubber for looks, improved ground clearance, offroad capability, etc. you're trying for absolute perfection, which on a short leaf samurai, is not possible
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Old 11-30-2018, 03:02 PM   #34 (permalink)
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we're talking about a 3" spring on a covered wagon (samurai) here steve. not some long travel pre-runner. or 6-8" super stiff lift spring.
Sure. but this is the thing that's easy to misunderstand about a samurai. A 3" lift spring IS like a 6-8" lift spring if you're starting with 5" of travel and a very, very short leaf. The idea a 3" spring clears bigger tires persists because those 3" springs can't fully compress to the factory bump stops. That's dumb. Most off road modifications trade road performance for trail performance. But an off road modification that trades off road performance (wheel travel) for off road performance (bigger tire) is stupid.

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not everybody is like us and wants to cut fenders and have the lowest rig ever with the biggest tires.
I've explained a number of ways to run a 31 without cutting fenders, because that's not appropriate for the OP.

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some guys want just a little lift and larger rubber for looks, improved ground clearance, offroad capability, etc. you're trying for absolute perfection, which on a short leaf samurai, is not possible
And this is where the problem is. A car that LOOKS capable might not be capable at all. A Samurai with 3" of lift and 31's does, indeed, look well proportioned. If that 3" of lift has been achieved with spring lift, it's cosmetic lift. the tires clear static, and in moderate terrain, but they don't really fit if the car is jammed up, and the high spring rate required to hold 2" of lift results in a bad ride. It sure LOOKS cool though. We assume because it looks right it must be have the functionality that comes with the looks.

The OP wants to run up to a 31" tire. They don't need 3" of spring lift to do that. They don't need to cut fenders to do that. And they don't need to give up wheel travel or have a bad ride to that. That's not perfection, that's just common sense.
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:34 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Gwagensteve, do you know if the OME shocks are 170/60 valved?
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Old 12-03-2018, 08:21 PM   #36 (permalink)
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No, I don’t, and the valving is proprietary because it’s application specific. I’d suggest they’re firmer than the 170/60 Bilstein’s because they have to arrest the axle in relatively little compression travel.
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Old 12-10-2018, 02:34 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Didn't see anyone mention a shackle reversal, I ran a shackle reversal in my old samurai and my father has one in his current samurai. Some people are against them but as long as you can get past the fang like hangers in the front and losing a little approach angle, I've found that the on and off road manners are pretty good, you get a 2" lift, and you don't need to change springs (pretty sure I was able to run stock shocks as well). Never had an issue with running 29-30" tires with stock gearing.
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Old 12-10-2018, 03:29 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Shackle reversal is great for high speed ride but garbage for everything else. I built one near 20 years ago. Never again.
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Old 12-20-2018, 09:51 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Good info in this thread.

Does anyone have a list of what shocks are valved soft, as in 170 / 60?

Bilsteins yes, but what about other brands / types of shocks that may be used for Samurai spua application?
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Old 12-20-2018, 04:09 PM   #40 (permalink)
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The big problem when discussing shock valving is it's generally proprietary, but if it is discussed, it's often expressed in different ways.

Bilstein's 170/60 is likely only a useful way of comparing different Bilsteins.

If you're searching for shocks from other applications you're looking for shocks intended for the rear of fullsize pickups, or for shocks intended for multiple applications. That's why the N76 OME works so well - it's an old school off road race shock intended to be run in multiples. Coincidentally, it's also used on the rear of lifted 70 series landcruisers, which don't need much shock due to the internal friction and low resonant frequency of their long leaves.

Many years ago I was sold Rancho 9000's in an off-application fitment as they could be "adjusted to suit" - I learned the hard way that they're valve application specific and while the generic 99010 etc part numbers reasonably soft valved, some others are very stiffly valved indeed, even when fully adjusted down. Once again though, valving is proprietary so Rancho resellers can only talk from experience with no numbers to back it up.

I believe the ES1000 pro comp shocks used in many kits are soft valved, but none of this is very scientific.

Also consider that one persons "soft valved" might be another person's too stiff. A tall car with low spring rates will need more shock to try and counter body roll than a low car. Many people heavily incline the rear shocks and this lowers their rate. Coil converted cars need more shock than a leaf car. (or rather, the shocks do more. You can remove the shocks from a stock Samurai completely and it's difficult to tell.)

Many aftermarket shocks are valved more stiffly because of marketing. You need to feel something change and obviously stock shocks are no good because they're too soft - you need more "control" -whatever that is.

So, unfortunately, it's a complete minefield. Sadly, there's very little objective data out there. Case in point - the most common cheap shock used locally is from the rear of a Holden Commodore sedan. It's selected because it's long and cheap. It's valved completely incorrectly for a Samurai and makes the car ride terribly, but it's very hard to find anyone who won't recommend these.
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