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Old 12-22-2007, 10:44 AM   #26 (permalink)
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thanks, sven! there is a lot of value in that cutaway pic. i am happy to know that there is so much material between the port floor and the water jacket! plenty of room for (judiciously) removing material.

while on the subject of heads... any thoughts on the treatment of the "air inductor nozzles" in the intake port? fsm says nothing, machining manuals say nothing. fsm briefly describes their presence as a way to accelerate the swirl in the combustion chamber. i'm drilling them out, threading the holes through the intake gasket flange to accept brass machine screws, and porting the intake as if they were never there. i can't imagine this engine being so deficient as to require an apparatus like that to get good mixture in the combustion chambers. even if that were the case, it would make way more sense to notch the quench area with a somender-singh groove. those nozzles really don't make sense. thoughts?
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Old 12-22-2007, 11:14 AM   #27 (permalink)
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just remember that the valve steering goes in where the material is thickest in the intakeport.

I'm not following you on the nozzels... which holes in the manifoldgasketare they, those under the lower bolts?
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Old 12-22-2007, 12:15 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlackSambo View Post
The thin connecting rods are the main concern for the Fasterer and Furiouserer crowd. For those of us building a little torque into our zuks, I think well be juuuust fine.

I rarely get a kick out of anyone on the Zuk board anymore...but that my "Fasterer and Furiouserer Friend with the Excellenterer Tech" is some good stuff...


Also...in your research...have you ever came across any solid explanation for the old, "The 8V engines always kick the #2 rod out" myth/theory???

(I personally have seen 3 8V's with the #2 rod out the block)...I still think this is a coincidence.
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Old 12-22-2007, 04:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
 
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On the topic of Suzuki 1.6 crankshafts, I have been pushing about 200hp out of my turbocharged G16B for 3 years now. 2 years prior to that I had a smaller turbo making about 150hp. If anyone thinks the hollow crank journals are an issue they just don't know what they're talking about. Maybe it becomes an issue at 9000rpms but you'll split the block in half before the crank breaks from boost/nitrous.
I've been bouncing it off the revlimiter at 6700rpm with 15psi boost off a VNT25 pretty much daily.
Now, the rods are a different story. I have bent the rods a couple times with some 18psi boost, of which one was really triggered by a software bug in the ECU which caused a backfire, blowing the gasket out of the inlet manifold plenum and bending #3 rod. I don't know but I think the other incident was in some way related to triggering issues making the engine fire against the starter very violently in -10C temperatures a couple days earlier.

Picture of a bent rod:
http://www.foo.is/gallery/oopsie/2005_01_30_12_0004
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Old 12-22-2007, 05:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
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are there any rod upgrades for 1.6 or 1.3?
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Old 12-22-2007, 06:09 PM   #31 (permalink)
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On the topic of Suzuki 1.6 crankshafts, I have been pushing about 200hp out of my turbocharged G16B for 3 years now. 2 years prior to that I had a smaller turbo making about 150hp. If anyone thinks the hollow crank journals are an issue they just don't know what they're talking about. Maybe it becomes an issue at 9000rpms but you'll split the block in half before the crank breaks from boost/nitrous.
I've been bouncing it off the revlimiter at 6700rpm with 15psi boost off a VNT25 pretty much daily.
Now, the rods are a different story. I have bent the rods a couple times with some 18psi boost, of which one was really triggered by a software bug in the ECU which caused a backfire, blowing the gasket out of the inlet manifold plenum and bending #3 rod. I don't know but I think the other incident was in some way related to triggering issues making the engine fire against the starter very violently in -10C temperatures a couple days earlier.

Picture of a bent rod:
http://www.foo.is/gallery/oopsie/2005_01_30_12_0004
Do you have pics or a engine build thread?
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Old 12-22-2007, 06:13 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Sven: yes, the holes under the intake ports lead to the "air inductor nozzles". i was looking at my cylinder head today and pondering their usefulness. i looked closely at the port design, and noticed that there is a channel that spirals about 30 degrees around the valve guide boss. this intake should work just fine without the extra boost from the "air inductor nozzles", unless suzuki needed to add them for emission control. see the FSM. there is one sentence that describes these injectors. they are ignored in the procedural literature.

tator- as far as the #2 rod goes, i've got nothing. suzuki has a great system for keeping tolerances tight on the assembly line (1/2, a/b), so i wouldn't look there. maybe a crank harmonic from the firing order causes a slap against the thrust bearing at just the right time. waves and harmonics do some wild things. i have seen some idiosyncrasies with other engines i've spent a great deal of time with that seem to have a pattern to them; with the '68-'72 pontiacs i've noticed the #6 piston likes to rock, and the #2 rod bearing is most likely to get spun, but those may also be coincidences.

baldur- you running a swift? that bent rod looks nasty!
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Old 12-22-2007, 06:15 PM   #33 (permalink)
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are there any rod upgrades for 1.6 or 1.3?
some have used toyota or honda rods with a little machining for fit. if you are willing to splurge on some custom pistons, then you can use anything close, and take better advantage of rod/stroke ratio and weight while you're at it. i know i'm already well into the turd-polishing zone, but a rod swap may be crossing the line.
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:05 AM   #34 (permalink)
 
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I'm running a Vitara with the 1.6 16 valve engine and a Garrett VNT25 turbocharger made for a Shelby Daytona. Audi wastegate, Porsche 911 fuel pump, 8 injectors, water-to-air chargecooler, megasquirt EFI.
Engine is pretty standard, the pistons have been dished on a lathe and some material removed from the combustion chamber of the head, netting a compression ratio of about 8.5:1, inlet and exhaust ports have been smoothed out (smoothing the transition between the port and the valve seat and removing casting seams) and it's fitted with ARP head studs.
Rear axle out of a 1983 Toyota Hilux with a diff out of a V6 4runner (the 1983 non-turbo differential wasn't all that strong), front diff out of an IFS Toyota Hilux to get the same ratios in the front (5.71:1). I use a CAP 4 puck metallic clutch and standard transmission which has been relatively trouble free. Low gear is a stock Suzuki transfer case with a Hilux transfer case bolted to the back. Gumbo Monster Mudder 38" tyres.
I put some 31" tyres under it this autumn and competed in sand drag racing (100 yards) and took second place in the 4x4 class with a time of 6.505 seconds.

I have considered upgrading the rods and changing the turbo, going for 300hp but there are a few obstacles that make it not the most feasible option. For example the clutch I have is rated for 270ft-lb torque but I need to be careful with it to make it hold 200ft-lb when on the large tyres. On 31" it'll chirp the tyres when I shift into second gear. Also the selection of head gaskets isn't great, I haven't been able to source a MLS head gasket and copper is no option on an engine that needs to hold it's water.
And with no aftermarket rods available off the shelf, everything you get will be custom or have to be modified to fit, bringing the cost up.
There's plenty of places that will supply rods for this engine but the price is about $200/rod for the reason stated.
Then to hit the 300hp mark will definitely need some head work, possibly larger inlet valves, definitely a cam (again, custom grind required) and stronger valve springs.
I don't know how much the block will hold but Suzuki did use a G16 block in their twin engined pikes peak racer back in 1996, making 400hp per engine.
I ended up deciding to keep my setup as it is, for more than 200hp it's just more practical to swap in a 2 liter engine with turbo, and I'm quite happy with the car's performance on the glaciers currently.

Plenty of pics of my build and how it progressed over the years (starting in 2003 ) at http://www.foo.is/gallery/vitara

Last edited by baldur; 12-23-2007 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:16 AM   #35 (permalink)
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There is some great info on this thread. Thanks for the writeup on it all.

I also did a 1.6 16V block with a 1.3 head. I can say I didn't find the compression to be any different as some claimed. But I do have a good amount of more torque available at lower RPM. Without the 1.6 exhaust valves I know I am loseing some upper end HP but so far I am pretty pleased with how well this works.

I was reading this thread http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,74086.0.html and thought I'd put a link to it for you to review. Does the statements about the cranks/and heads from different years of zuks fit into the things you have been researching? They are talking of the different year heads being different and changing the compression. This hold true and should it be something we should look at when "upgradeing" our zuks for power?

Thoughts?
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Old 12-25-2007, 11:55 PM   #36 (permalink)
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catzuk, i read the zuwharrie thread, and the head thread that links to it. i do not think their information is accurate. there is a thread on teamswift that breaks down the entire code system for g13a, b, k, etc. that makes better sense. honestly, i think those two threads are a bunch of jib-jab from people who are not very deep into engines (one even believes that suzuki would change rods to change compression, rather than pistons) and the guy who is babbling about cylinder head combustion chambers is totally guessing. any change in compression will be done with the pistons and relative deck space, and that alone. it is the only economic solution for a company who manufactured these engines by hundreds of thousands per year worldwide.

so... none of that info fits too well. i've been doing a ton of reading, mostly on foreign boards, but am too lazy to play search and link right now. i think those threads are a bunch of hot air. "IIRC" in a forum is not a reference, a link to a credible source or actual, well documented measuring is.

merry christmas.
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Old 12-26-2007, 11:44 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I appreciate that. Thanks. Thats what makes this thread more valueable. Squashing myths and chit-chat with facts and the data to back it up.
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Old 01-23-2008, 02:52 PM   #38 (permalink)
 
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Anymore input on this topic?Just took my 1.6 head to the machine shop to get a valve job. I also told him to shave the head by .030", do you think that will be to much??
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:55 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Anymore input on this topic?Just took my 1.6 head to the machine shop to get a valve job. I also told him to shave the head by .030", do you think that will be to much??
that will put you around ten and a quarter, give or take. your bore and piston dimensions really matter for getting significant figures. either way, you're good to go on mid-grade if you set your ignition timing well.
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:13 AM   #40 (permalink)
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i've been off project for a while. getting a interdisciplinary science degree in my 30's has hampered my time and money for my sam significantly. two weeks till summer, good bicycling weather, and reaserch projects with flexible schedules mean i'll be back at it. the next data set i will come up with will be actual deck volume on my particular setup, followed by valve clearance tests. i'll also throw down some pics for getting some timing adjustability from the stock cam gear in the next couple of weeks.

i also asked around about drilling the brass inductor nozzles out of the intake ports and plugging them off. TT brent says he does it. i haven't found anybody who flowbenches bowl work (other than guy croft- that guy's a mad scientist!) so quantifying improvement or detriment will be a shot in the dark, just like any port work done w/o a flow bench. i guess i'll have to go by the seat of my pants (and my accelerometer) and enjoy the engine as an overall improvement, knowing i've maximized all the variables i can. drag races are won by the minute adjustments that push power gains beyond the more ubiquitous modifications. there are still a few more tweaks up my sleeve... stay tuned.
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:37 PM   #41 (permalink)
 
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(i'll ignore the thermal processes of quench space with this engine, the build isn't to be like my pontiac drag motors.)
Great thread!

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Old 05-02-2008, 12:17 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Good thread man. Thanks for sharing this info with us.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:45 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Bump. Sambo....Any more info?? I'm making the final preps to install my 1.3. You started a great thread here......
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:40 AM   #44 (permalink)
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here's some stuff

already put this up in another thread:


NOTE: do not completely remove the guide boss from the exh port. it is required to transfer heat from the exh valve to the head. the intake side boss can be removed entirely.
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:50 AM   #45 (permalink)
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head prep:

wash and bead blast (no sand, glass beads only). use a valve cover while blasting, you don't want to mess up the cam bearing surfaces.


to get the residue off of aluminum, use trisodium phosphate or oven cleaner with sodium hydroxide. this does etch the aluminum (that's why it says not to use it on aluminum- but we're using control and precision here).

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Old 01-03-2009, 10:08 AM   #46 (permalink)
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good god y'all!


eductor removal



eductors were drilled out and tapped to 1/4-20. i countersunk the screws with a 5/16 bit, 1" deep. brass screws were turned down to 5/16 and jb-welded into the eductor ports. brass has a linear coefficient of thermal expansion that is closer to aluminum than steel, and it is easier to work with a burr.
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:09 AM   #47 (permalink)
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porting pics coming. lots of resizing, slow to post... kinda hasty today.
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:12 AM   #48 (permalink)
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i guess i forgot to post a before pic showing what these eductor nozzles are. they don't need to be there, and will make porting impossible.
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:57 AM   #49 (permalink)
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completed bowl work. what a difference! i'll get into measuring ports later, this isn't random grinding.
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:57 AM   #50 (permalink)
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view from combustion chamber
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