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Old 07-18-2012, 10:31 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I love these old trucks getting love
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:57 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterBooster View Post
btw
why are you using box tubing at the frame brace ? ... are you not allowing frame twist for axle articulation ?
Curious to this as well. We all know these frames are meant to flex for a reason. Bracing looks a little substantial.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:32 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
Did you consider stretching the frame?

My dad made that suggestions, & would probably be the best option, I'm not sure what the cost would be to take something like that on,
The frame being short kind of caught me by suprize, I'm just kind of rolling with it, with the stuff I have,
If the wheel base does in fact need to be longer, I think a frame stretch will be the only answer

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Originally Posted by MT4Runner View Post
I like the details like the radiused gussets on the panhard mount. Something you'd ordinarily see on a custom buggy.
A CNC plas table makes those parts easy, since my dads is only a few blocks away I figure it might as well get used as much as possible,

I'm tooled up pretty good myself, but I am lucky not only does dad have a PlasmaCam, he also has a nice onld Bridgport mill, & a Lablond lathe that will swing about 18"
So any pics you see on here of machining or CNC cutting, that's at his shop.

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Originally Posted by 87manche View Post
not worried about front axle weights moving the rear back?
I think it's going to have a pretty fat butt, I really hope the front don't get to light,

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Originally Posted by mike_belben View Post
what you got planned for a bed and hitches?
Currently I am thinking flatbed, 11 ft long on the flat & a 3 or 4 ft dove tail,
Hithces, probably a heavy built reciever in the dove tail reinforce to the back of the frame, I may put a goose neck ball in the bed, I don't have that style trailer, but there have been times that I had access to one & may have been better off to use one, but didn't have a rig to tow it, this way I'll have that option,
When I get stared on the bed I may try to keep it fairly easy to remove,
then it would be pretty easy to slap a 5th wheel on it & pull a big trailer, if need be.

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Originally Posted by RoosterBooster View Post
darn ... you work fast
.... and clean !! ; i love the attention to details
Coming from you, thats a pretty big compliment,

I'm not sure about the fast part, it took me 3 days to get that diff in there, I'm pretty sure a good 1 of those days was thinking about it

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Originally Posted by RoosterBooster View Post
with the short frame overhang it kinda screams for a tilt bed ... is that what your doing ?!?
It would be a good idea, since the truck has most of the wet kit already on it,
Plus a couple guys doing scrap here in town have a roll off setup sitting in thier yard, I think it's for the construction type bin/dumpster, but might be made to work,
I'll look into that a bit, the only down side I see is the added hight on the back of the truck, but I can always go throw a tape on thier setup & see what I'd be working with.

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Originally Posted by RoosterBooster View Post
btw
why are you using box tubing at the frame brace ? ... are you not allowing frame twist for axle articulation ?
The tubing I used since I had it around, The one it replaced was a pretty beefy aluminum piece, I'll post some pics of it, I'm not sure how much fex it allowed, although, it was bolted together, so that may have let it move around a bit more,
To be honest, I didn't even consider frame flex, I guess I'm used to working on junk with rigid frames,


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Originally Posted by HITMONEY View Post
SEXAY!

love the fab work here and being able to watch an old rig get a proper resurrection.. nice job!
Thanks for the props, hopefully I can bring a little glory back to the old girl.

Today I went to Reno & picked up a new front fender, then after I got home I replaced the mangled up back cab corner,
But it looks like pics will have to wait until photobucket gets done with thier maintenace.

Thanks to everyone for the compliments
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:09 AM   #54 (permalink)
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When I picked this truck up I mentioned that the drivers front fender was in pretty poor shape, after digging further into it, the passenger side had been replaced & was aluminum,
I searched & searched for information on what fenders could be used to replace the damaged steel one on this truck, there really was not a lot of info about it since most people doing restorations reuse the factory steel fenders, After measureing a few differnt things I found that one could use either a fender from a 359 model truck, or a 379 model, the difference being the 379 fenders are approximatly an inch narrower in width,
The wider 359 fenders are in fact basically an aluminum replica of the origonal steel units on this truck, the only difference being a mounting bracket inside that has to be adapted to the new fender.

While perusing ebay a couple weeks ago I ran accross a pair of 379 fenders for sale, ad said brand new pair of 379 front fenders, & the buy it now price was about as much as one new after market fender,
(by the way, at this time I still did not know what fender was used on the passenger side of the truck) so I bought the pair & figured I would make them work, even if they wind up being narrower,
Well about a week later they showed up, I opend the box & knew I'd been had, There were 2 fenders in there, one was a left & one was a right, & that's where the "pair" part of this storey stops.

The left one was a bare fender, about .080 thick,
The right, in primer, stamped out of maybe .050 thick aluminum, & was an inch narrower,
The light duty fender did match the one that had been replaced on the truck, but they were both RH fenders,
Luckily the thicker LH fender had a faded PACCAR sticker on it with a part number, so I called the Peterbilt dealership & found out it was in fact for a 359 model truck, So I had them order the matching RH fender, all said & done, the new fender from Peterbilt was not much more money than on after market one,

So yesterday I ran to Reno & Picked up the new fender,
Now after weeks of messing around, I have a maching pair of brand new front fenders,


After I got home from Reno & had a half a day left I got started on the crunched portion of the back panel on the cab.

Probably damaged the same time as the corner & thresh hold, but they just banged it (sort of flat) & rivited it back in place,



Other than the lower portion of that side, the rest of the panel is realy pretty clean, so I just marked out the bad area & cut it out



Once it was out of the way I found more welding to do,



Then cleaned everything up & prepped for the new panel,


On the angled side of the new panel I used an edge crimper & made a lip to fit under the origonal panel,



Test fit
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Old 07-19-2012, 07:13 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Clamped in place & drilling holes,


After the drilling was done I pulled the panel back off & deburred averything,


A little seam sealer & a few rivets later & here it is.

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Old 07-19-2012, 08:04 AM   #56 (permalink)
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looks nice, its a shame you didnt have some one to buck some rivits with you
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:23 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterBooster View Post
are you not allowing frame twist for axle articulation ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurchseesu View Post
Curious to this as well. We all know these frames are meant to flex for a reason. Bracing looks a little substantial.
Here is the crossmember that was replaced,


Looks to be about 3/8 web material,

If the new part limits frame flex, I'm not sure by how much,
I do know these bigger trucks get pretty helpless if the diff is open & there is not much articulation.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:07 AM   #58 (permalink)
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i hear you on not used to twisting frames; i also used to build very rigid high performance dune buggies and always liked the saying "you can tune suspensions and shocks, but you cant tune frame flex"

but as you mentioned trucks are fairly helpless without frame twist
flex is actually the wrong word; the big C-channel hardly flex at all ; its more of a twisting motion
that is the reason why usually the frame crossmembers are also made of large C- or U- channel pieces; they hold the frame rail webbings parallel but allow a twisting motion.
box (or round) tubing on the other hand resists that motion; it basically needs to flex to allow twist (so its acting like a torsion spring or big sway bar)

i dont know how much that single one box tubing will hurt frame twist (axle articulation), but you could possible cut out the bottom (turn it into a U-channel) to salvage the nice work you did on it (love your welds )
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Old 07-20-2012, 09:40 AM   #59 (permalink)
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IIRC the crossmember design and spacing changes depending on the intended use of the truck - tractors are fairly "loose" but frames specd for dump boxes etc. are usually designed with more torsional rigidity with crossmembers that are similar to that.

In its original application with a spring susp it would have needed all the flex it could get but on a flatbed application with air spring I would think that the frame will not need to be working as "hard". I have seen Mack rear crossmembers that are similar but with an open bottom, if you are concerned about it, maybe cut the side or bottom out of it (two hole saw holes at the end and cuts to make a slot across) but this may just make it feel a lot "tighter"...

Maybe I'm out to lunch...
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:41 AM   #60 (permalink)
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In its original application with a spring susp it would have needed all the flex it could get but on a flatbed application with air spring I would think that the frame will not need to be working as "hard".
I'd think the opposite. Most air setups I've seen aren't meant to flex much at all compaired to leaves.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:33 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I wish I had done a flex test with the leaf springs, then I could do a before & after,


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I'd think the opposite. Most air setups I've seen aren't meant to flex much at all compaired to leaves.
Most rear only air setups are installed with only leveling valve, & the hose tee'd to each bag, how I picture it in my mind, I would think this promotes flex in the suspension, one tire goes up & the air is allowed to shuttle to the bag that is drooping, the front springs are what keep the truck from leaning,

On a vehicle with air bags on both end, one end has to have the left & right air bag on seperate leveling valves (usually the heavy end of the rig) this keeps the vehicle from leaning one way or the other,

The only vehicle I am familiar with that has air ride on both ends are the MCI buses at my work, they are a uni-body design & have zero "frame flex" so they depend on the suspension alone,

I'll continue on as is for now, if it proves more frame flex would be benificial I'm not above cutting the bottom out of that crossmember,
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:39 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Also, the last 2 days have had some progress I'm not used to, normally I work by myself & do not have a lot of help most of the time,
Well I've been at work the last 2 days & each evening when I get home from work a freind of mine has been over at the shop making head way on the body work, So far he has done a beautiful job of banging out the roof caps above the doors & fixing the small dings & dents,
With a little luck the cab will be in primer right around the end of the month.
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:01 PM   #63 (permalink)
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The suspension on MCIs is crazy. I can't believe how well they ride.
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Old 07-21-2012, 06:40 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Most rear only air setups are installed with only leveling valve, & the hose tee'd to each bag, how I picture it in my mind, I would think this promotes flex in the suspension, one tire goes up & the air is allowed to shuttle to the bag that is drooping, the front springs are what keep the truck from leaning,
finding intelligent discussions about the mechanics and geometries of class 8 truck suspensions has proven to be a challenge, but im inclined to believe that tractors with single ride height valves and teed rear bags are depending on the torsion through the drive axle tubes as an anti-roll mechanism.

the rears are never set up like how we'd do an offroad suspension, trying to avoid bind and allow springs to control wheel motion. rather the opposite, everything i stare at looks like it was fully intended to put the drive axle(s) in a state of constraint relative to the frame. if you jack up one side of a drive axle, even with the air spring removed, the frame will lift and twist. the plane of the drive axles and frame rails wants to stay parallel.

in support of my theory:

1.) triaxle dumps and straight log trucks run double frame. if we look at huge gooseneck trailers, say 40 foot + tri-axle or dual tandems, as the load capacity goes up, we dont see sleeved or double frames, its the height of the I-beam that gets increased. it appears to me that this is not the strategy with trucks, and im starting to think its because a taller frame, though it could support more vertical load, would still twist up just as bad. a double frame has much more torsional rigidity, and when youve got 20yd of wet loam or cement with a COG thats 9 feet in the air.. body roll/frame twist has to be critical.

2.) a friend of mine had his big pete go over at 3mph making a hard left turn on a completely flat intersection. similarly, our scrap contractor has an old mack thats been on its side 4 times in their flat but potholed and broken paved yard. both trucks are extra heavy double frame with the upside down hendrickson/mack walking beamish leaf setups that have no give. instead of body roll, these ultra stiff trucks immediately lift a tire and start going over when the load pushes the pin wrong and all wheels arent supported on even pavement. i guess the frames wont comply with the uneven road surfaces. ???
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:52 AM   #65 (permalink)
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im inclined to believe that tractors with single ride height valves and teed rear bags are depending on the torsion through the drive axle tubes as an anti-roll mechanism.
I could agree with that, it makes more sense than depending on the front springs alone, In your theory the trailing arm/springs work as an anti roll device nearly as much as it does a load supporting device,

Might be time for some testing & pics when I get home tonight, it only takes a minute to remove an airbag & see what it does only lifting one side.
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Old 07-21-2012, 10:20 AM   #66 (permalink)
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from rooster's thread:

https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showp...&postcount=476

frame flex is redonkulous.
It doesn't look like the airbags ever really change their height in proportion to the frame.

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Old 07-21-2012, 12:34 PM   #67 (permalink)
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..In your theory the trailing arm/springs work as an anti roll device nearly as much as it does a load supporting device..
exactly. ive been glancing under every truck i see for months and havent found a swaybar yet. ive heard of them but never seen personally.


i think roosters picture supports this theory. single height valve, teed air lines after the valve. bags are free to breath back and forth. and ill bet money the PSI in each bag is fully equalized here.

the right front is being lifted. in our automotive world, left rear should plant. look at the GD thing, the rear left frame corner is HIGHER than the right rear? why?

-i think- that as you raise the right side frame rail, you raise the [right side] axle pivot bolt which tries to roll the pinion upward. the axle housing transmits this torsional motion into the left air leaf or link with a lifting force on the frame. the right rear is being loaded (from the lifting on the right front transferring weight down the length of this framerail) and the left rear is being lifted (from the force acting through the axle tube upon the trail arm pivot bolt)) so the CG actually shifts to the rear and the right a little, planting the back right corner even more. i believe thats why the right bag is squashed more than the left bag.
if that were double framed, or a box truck, id bet the passenger rears would be in the air. the way the frames are designed, is very much like trying to collapse an aluminum screen door frame. theyve got that wierd twisty/boingy quality to them where they want to curl opposite corners.
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:05 PM   #68 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=mike_belben;14598054]

the right front is being lifted. in our automotive world, left rear should plant. look at the GD thing, the rear left frame corner is HIGHER than the right rear? why?

QUOTE]

I'm not sure you can make that call that the left rear is actually higher than the right rear, there are way too many variables within the picture that I'd bet weren't accounted for when it was shot. ie, camera level and calibrated with frame, back of frame sitting on level ground, equal lengths between rr and lr frame end from the camera (triangulation), etc.

Not denying, just not sure it's that simple as you stated regarding the frame level. OTherwise, carry on...
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Old 07-21-2012, 01:12 PM   #69 (permalink)
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the tires are equal height, thus the axle tube is equal height from the ground at either side. bottoms of the tires are roughly parallel to the lower margin of the photo indicating they are horizontal. the axle tube, and truss that the air springs ride on is also parallel to the photo margin. the ground and camera are pretty much parallel. measure your screen with a dial caliper if you want.

now measure from the lower margin of the image to the top of the air bags, the frame rails and so forth. measure from the stick to the tops of the tires, the length of the shocks, etc. youll see differences there, etc. without being on the scene with a tape measure, i think im pretty close. i used a mitutoyo digital, it cant be wrong

not trying to discredit you, its worthy of consideration. im just affirming my stance.
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Old 07-21-2012, 05:04 PM   #70 (permalink)
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the right front is being lifted. in our automotive world, left rear should plant. look at the GD thing, the rear left frame corner is HIGHER than the right rear? why?
Think of the frame rails as separate entities. Not connected in any way. Now think of them as a simple lever with the rear axle as the fulcrum point.

The front of the left one is lower, so beyond the rear axle it will be higher.
The right one is higher in the front, so on the other side of the fulcrum it'll be lower.
This is what is meant by frames "twisting" rather than "flexing". The rails themselves don't bend, just twist.

I'm probably using words wrong, I suck at conveying meaning.

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Old 07-21-2012, 05:19 PM   #71 (permalink)
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i could think of them as seperate entities, but they arent, theyre tied together by numerous crossmembers of generous strength. (a 4" channel will hold a skid steer)

i could lay out a pair of 2x4s and space them the same proportion with threaded rod to simulate the structure. i bet they still dont behave the same. and i bet if that left bag was removed, nothing would change. i may be completely wrong but thats how i reason it out.

i have a truck to build asap so my purpose in this discussion right now is to get to the bottom of how these things work to apply it to my own rig. thats my theory.. lets stir it around and see if it holds true.

btw skipped link, your work is sick. i just got to see todays pics, theyre blocked at work.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:11 PM   #72 (permalink)
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i could think of them as seperate entities, but they arent, theyre tied together by numerous crossmembers of generous strength. (a 4" channel will hold a skid steer)

i could lay out a pair of 2x4s and space them the same proportion with threaded rod to simulate the structure. i bet they still dont behave the same. and i bet if that left bag was removed, nothing would change. i may be completely wrong but thats how i reason it out.
I'm terrible at putting meaning to words, so I drew a picture.

I hope tinypic doesn't delete the image in 90 days and puts something else in there...
On the diagram the red is the right side, blue left. Right side of the image is front, left rear.
The frame rails don't bend, but they twist in the area between the crossmembers. This allows the frame to deflect in such a way as shown even with the rigid crossmembers holding the flat upright parts parallel.

Why the straightedge is deflected in the way it is in the pic is also sorta kinda shown in the pic.
Big truck suspensions such as a low air leaf aren't designed to articulate, in fact the opposite is true, they use the bind of the suspension to act as a huge swaybar.
Sort of like radius arms on a front axle. All of the articulation is reliant on the pliability of the bushings.

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Old 07-21-2012, 08:30 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Big truck suspensions such as a low air leaf aren't designed to articulate, in fact the opposite is true, they use the bind of the suspension to act as a huge swaybar.
Sort of like radius arms on a front axle. All of the articulation is reliant on the pliability of the bushings.
thats the whole point ive been trying to make.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:43 PM   #74 (permalink)
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thats the whole point ive been trying to make.
Oh, all I saw was the thing about the frame flex seeming to not act right.

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Old 07-22-2012, 12:45 PM   #75 (permalink)
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top two suspension products on this page are off highway rated, so in theory should allow some twist or articulation, yet the design does not seem to provide for that very much based on visual perception:

http://ww1.safholland.us/sites/usa/e...s/default.aspx

in the post #66 image, imagine looking at the front of the frame rails with no cab. The passengers frame rail has twisted as if you put a screwdriver through it and rotated it clockwise. It has also bent up or lifted up to allow the front passengers tire to be higher than the drivers front tire.

Now think of the crossmembers connecting the frame rails in that frame section and they must deform as well to allow this bending/twisting curve motion. As a frame rail twists, the bottom width is wider than the top width (in the example above). It seems quite silly to me to flex a frame and restrict suspension versus letting the suspension do what it was designed to do (move, flex, twist, articulate, absorb, deform, etc)

I have not driven an HDT but quite a few MDT's and not a single one was anywhere near comfortable. The ride can be improved with air seats and cab, but that seems a band aid fix at best for a shitty ride, only isolating the driver from said shitty ride, not addressing the root issue/cause.

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