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Old 07-07-2018, 04:31 PM   #201 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sask466 View Post
I think where guys get into trouble is they take a relatively high speed MDT engine like a 466, put a big turbo on it, pour the fuel to it, get 300-350hp and lug it like a itís a C15 Cat. The cylinder pressures get high, head gaskets fail and exhaust temps get wild.

There is nothing wrong with having an unloaded gear, and a loaded gear either. It gives you the option of pulling a faster gear when you can. Lots to semis are geared that way.
Mike Belben did exactly this and blew multiple head gaskets to prove it. RPMs need to be up.
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Old 07-07-2018, 04:56 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Mike Belben did exactly this and blew multiple head gaskets to prove it. RPMs need to be up.
He was also running something like 22+ degrees of injection timing.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:20 PM   #203 (permalink)
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He was also running something like 22+ degrees of injection timing.
19, last I knew

we did 16 on my Cummins. Rips like you wouldn't believe.
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Old 07-07-2018, 05:40 PM   #204 (permalink)
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He was also running something like 22+ degrees of injection timing.
and a little tiny borg s258 or something, so it had the airflow down low enough in the revs to make an absurd amount of cylinder pressure.

big turbos might not be as nice for lugging around town low in the revs, but it's hard to absentmindedly push a gasket out when it won't make 20 psi below 2500 rpm
you just get a shitload of smoke and realize the error of your ways

electronic governors are frickin' magic because you can avoid all that garbage.
Set it up so there's only fuel for the air you got to avoid obnoxious smoke without setting it up doggedly lean,
set it up so it won't put in 2000ft/lb of fuel so you can get a turbo that'll spool real early rather than a mechanical gov that'll only reference boost pressure if even that,
set it up so it'll give you full fuel to 100 rpm before valve float, rather than a mechanical governor that pulls fuel for a thousand rpm or more before it hits high-idle
set it up for proper injection timing across the entire range rather than setting it to run at one speed and load
It's really too bad most of the computer controlled heavier duty diesels are not DIY-tuner friendly like the light duty stuff is.
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Old 07-07-2018, 06:51 PM   #205 (permalink)
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I think his truck has 22.5 Dayton’s already. 20” rims may (don’t quote me) use the same hub. There are 24.5 Daytons too, but they use a different hub size for sure.

Last edited by Sask466; 07-07-2018 at 06:52 PM.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:46 AM   #206 (permalink)
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don't they make 22.5s for them, or would the drums/hubs need to be changed out to bigger ones?

The 22.5's and 20's fit the same hub as far as I know.
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Old 07-08-2018, 09:49 AM   #207 (permalink)
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He was also running something like 22+ degrees of injection timing.

Stock on a dt is in the 16-18 range pending application, low 20's for a "hot rod", and the pullers push it to high 30's, low 40's with some other parts to keep egts friendly.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:10 AM   #208 (permalink)
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Stock on a dt is in the 16-18 range pending application, low 20's for a "hot rod", and the pullers push it to high 30's, low 40's with some other parts to keep egts friendly.
There are some motors with higher timing stock, for the most part they are 11-12*.

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Old 07-08-2018, 10:27 AM   #209 (permalink)
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:37 AM   #210 (permalink)
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There are some motors with higher timing stock, for the most part they are 11-12*.

Thats a ngd motor, pretty different motor from a tune up standpoint. I know the manual for the rebuild on mine had them all in the 16-17 range, b series motors, up to just before the mw pump.
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Old 07-08-2018, 10:53 AM   #211 (permalink)
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well shit, was hoping for 8rs or something
13Rs would be a little more, but not much, 45s vs 41s and you aren't going to find any decent used like in more common sizes

looking more like an OD trans is in your future, gives you an unloaded gear so you can do your pulling in direct
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Old 07-08-2018, 11:39 AM   #212 (permalink)
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A lot of the 466c’s with MW bosches called for 18 to 22 degrees of timing, stock. The bigger IH tractors with MW Bosch pumps and 466’s (look up a 5488 tractor) call for 23 degrees stock.

I know it sounds crazy compared to a lot of other engines and pumps, but it seems to be what IH did. The NGD’s have a different head, and a different pump, so it’s probably an apples to oranges comparison.
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Old 07-08-2018, 12:11 PM   #213 (permalink)
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A lot of the 466c’s with MW bosches called for 18 to 22 degrees of timing, stock. The bigger IH tractors with MW Bosch pumps and 466’s (look up a 5488 tractor) call for 23 degrees stock.

I know it sounds crazy compared to a lot of other engines and pumps, but it seems to be what IH did. The NGD’s have a different head, and a different pump, so it’s probably an apples to oranges comparison.
Comparing a tractor motor to a truck motor is different in terms of how it is fueled via different govenor types. Did all 466c motors come with only the 10mm MW? Was it the next series that came with the 11mm MW before the NGD? IMO over 20* in a truck that works is just asking for trouble at some point. Went to 19* on my 7.8 (I know different motor) stock was 14. As soon as I compounded it with some pump mods it started getting hot on long pulls even with a big turbo, lots of power though. Anyways, don't mean to derail OPs thread.

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Old 07-08-2018, 12:57 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Everything I've seen on the old style dt's is their timing starts at what everyone else turns theirs to. Lots of factors can affect this, cam shaft, head design, etc. So it's very hard to compare one motor to another, but the amount you adjust and affects are similar.
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Old 07-08-2018, 01:03 PM   #215 (permalink)
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I have heard internet legend that some DT’s had 11mm pumps in them, but I don’t know for sure. I have also heard MW’s came only as 10mm max. So, I have no idea.


Here is a link to an IH Bosch manual: at the back it lists pump specs for a 210hp truck DT. It lists the timing and 18+/-1deg, and that was by no means their highest hp version. It would be interesting to see what the 250hp versions had for timing. My truck is sitting at 21 degs, and I was freaked out, but over on the redpower forum (IH forum), the guys didn’t seem to worry at all.

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/...nt.php?aid=870
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Old 07-08-2018, 04:10 PM   #216 (permalink)
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This is generating awesome discussion and for that I am happy.

I got made fun of on facebook for suggesting that DT466s don't mind some revs and that they aren't a 15L diesel. but with that said I would like to have a better highway gear for unloaded cruising. Those facebook guys are mostly running DT360s (and some 466s) in pickups so I guess they are relatively light and aerodynamic.

Backwoods - running stock everything on the DT466 NGD right now. I don't know how many miles it has in it before it needs a rebuild. When i found this engine I was still looking for convert my 466c to serpentine accessory drive. Instead of buying just the serp acc drive components, I found the whole NGD for $700. Guy said it came from a septic truck so didn't have a lot of miles but lots of hours. Depending on how things work out in the next couple years, yeah, I might be driving this to California and western Canadia for wheeling type trips. The truck registration says 12k front and 22k rear axle so I gotta look into how unkind the american DOT harassment officers will be on those grounds. I don't have my class 1 (what you guys call CDL) yet.

The latest on my end is that I knocked the yoke off my parts diff and I will take it to Truckline to see if they can get a 1710 yoke for it. I'll also quiz them to see if they can look up spindle sizes to see if I can swap the hubs on that R44 over to my dayton hubs from the N190.

While I was taking the yoke off I found a tag on the parts truck diff that had a bunch of numbers on it. One of them was R44CA103 11X so I got it right when I ID'd the diff. Another was 3 91 so truck was swapped from 4.44 to 3.91 at some point in its life. Makes sense because it has such little tires on it.

For a little comparison. Before the truck would barely grunt taking off in 3rd gear (2nd on the stick). So that would be 4.10 * 5.63 = 23.1. If I put in the 3.91s and start in 1st instead that would be 6.94 * 3.91 = 27.1. There is still a 10.09 low gear below that. So 3.91s would be no problem on the bottom end. Top end would be 67mph at 2200 (91mph at 3000 ).
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Old 07-08-2018, 08:21 PM   #217 (permalink)
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Comparing a tractor motor to a truck motor is different in terms of how it is fueled via different govenor types.
This. With the tractor any time it is loaded down you take the go lever and put it on its operating position (maximum) and the motor sings at max RPM and fueling is automatically governed to keep it there, thus it is timed for both governed RPM and maximum fueling

with a truck motor it is timed optimally for cruise RPM and cruise fueling, so pretty midrange RPM and lower fueling
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Old 07-09-2018, 07:52 AM   #218 (permalink)
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This is generating awesome discussion and for that I am happy.

I got made fun of on facebook for suggesting that DT466s don't mind some revs and that they aren't a 15L diesel. but with that said I would like to have a better highway gear for unloaded cruising. Those facebook guys are mostly running DT360s (and some 466s) in pickups so I guess they are relatively light and aerodynamic.
Some people don't like "thread hijacks", but sometimes this is when the best information is generated--even if the discussion takes a long detour.

Transmissions
I realize you asked earlier about transmissions and the thread delved into pump mods; you seem to have a stockpile of Eaton 7-speeds. I had put one in my UHaul and meant to reply earlier. Granted your GMC is a bit higher GVW than the UHaul, but still not a Class 8 truck!

Those 7-speeds didn't have a great reputation, but my guess is that was when they were heavily loaded. (Assuming 40-50k GVW?). I'm also assuming that you're looking at hauling 25-35k, which puts the entire thing in a much happier place. If you're not hot-rodding the engine or heavily loading the truck, I don't think you can go wrong with those transmissions.

As you noted, they are synchro trannies, which is a very good thing if you ever want to go on a long road trip (KOH) and take some friends with who don't know how to float gears. My wife also drove my UHaul and never would have with a big truck transmission.

Another benefit is that they have reasonably close ratios. Generally 32-35% between steps. The Spicer 5-speeds suck for this, even the NV4500 behind most 12V pickups has an ugly jump between 3rd and 4th 1:1. If you look at the ratios for most big truck transmissions, the 9-speed is all on the deep end, the Super 10 is about the same steps as the 7-speed Eaton, and 13- and 15-speeds just add more gears on the bottom end. You have to go 18-speed to get any more splits up on top. So, close ratios, let you get your engine in its happy power band without lugging and high EGT's or spinning crazy fast and sucking fuel.


Take a final look at rear gear ratios:

67mph at 2200RPM seems good, but if you push it to 70, you're both pushing wind and pushing more fuel. Think about your max desired regular highway speed and build toward that.

2200 seems like a good highway speed RPM--would you want to cruise slightly faster than 67?
3.52X gets you to 2,000rpm at 67mph; 2200 would be 74mph.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:15 PM   #219 (permalink)
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This is generating awesome discussion and for that I am happy.

I got made fun of on facebook for suggesting that DT466s don't mind some revs and that they aren't a 15L diesel. but with that said I would like to have a better highway gear for unloaded cruising. Those facebook guys are mostly running DT360s (and some 466s) in pickups so I guess they are relatively light and aerodynamic. .
My bus is the '95 NGD, Es52-7a tranny, n175 rear, 22.5 11r tires. I thought it was 4.78 gears untill I did the swap, but they ended up being 4.44's. I debated at the time if I should do 3.91's or 4.10's. Vanderhaags had both at the time. I went with the 4.10. I'm glad I did. I think now that anything under 2100 rpm's feel like its lugging. I get the best milage at 67 mph at right around 2100. I did have some help turning up the pump and grinding the fuel plate. Kept it pretty mild and added an egt. I never get over 1150 egts and no extra black smoke yet. But it holds the hills better now. Before turning it up, it almost felt like it was to high of gear. It loves running faster now, all the way up to 79 mph, where it tops out at. It just goes through alot more fuel doing it though.

I still dislike the trans but it gets the job done. As long as you are not in a hurry it shifts fine. If I try rolling through the gears fast, it never seems to go into the gear it should.

Last edited by hvbuzz; 07-09-2018 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:14 AM   #220 (permalink)
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22.5 11r tires.
I get the best milage at 67 mph at right around 2100.
Hey thanks for chiming in again. Are you sure about that speed and RPM? To make the math work with my GPS speed and RPMs I had to use 40.1 inch diameter. Looks like your tires would have to be 44" to get 67 mph out of 2100 rpm with 4.10s.


Yesterday I pulled my parts truck up to the stop. I pulled off the hub from my n190 and started to pull the hub from the R44 then said fawk it.. Better off swapping to budds. I think the spindles were the same but I stopped before pulling the hub off the R44 so I don't know for sure. The spindle on my N190 had been welded and ground down (by hand). The brakes on my N190 look better but oh well I'll replace them on the R44 if I have to. Too bad the brakes won't interchange.

So I blasted all the bolts out of my leaf sprung suspension before bed. Maybe take tomorrow off work and get everything swapped over. Pending the 1610 yoke for the R44 can arrive in time.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:56 PM   #221 (permalink)
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Hey thanks for chiming in again. Are you sure about that speed and RPM? To make the math work with my GPS speed and RPMs I had to use 40.1 inch diameter. Looks like your tires would have to be 44" to get 67 mph out of 2100 rpm with 4.10s.
You may be right about rpm's. 67mph is the sweet spot though. I only use my GPS for a speedo too. The speedometer is off to far. 79 is GPS top speed. I've only had it out once this year, life seems to get in way of fun. Probably be awhile for the next outing too.

I keep watching for updates. Truck is looking awesome!! I too like the paint choice.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:24 AM   #222 (permalink)
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These rear axle gears are kind of a show stopper. The first potential trip for this truck was going to be to southern SK in a few weeks where there is a big Florida style off road (mud) park. Its ~3.5 hr drive in a pickup so it would be pretty shitty going 50mph max the whole way there. I wouldn't even be bringing a 4x4 to the event, just spectating friends who are into the mud thing.
you gonna have the deck and camper on for that?
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Old 07-15-2018, 01:48 AM   #223 (permalink)
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Some people don't like "thread hijacks", but sometimes this is when the best information is generated--even if the discussion takes a long detour.

Transmissions

Another benefit is that they have reasonably close ratios. Generally 32-35% between steps. The Spicer 5-speeds suck for this, even the NV4500 behind most 12V pickups has an ugly jump between 3rd and 4th 1:1. If you look at the ratios for most big truck transmissions, the 9-speed is all on the deep end, the Super 10 is about the same steps as the 7-speed Eaton, and 13- and 15-speeds just add more gears on the bottom end. You have to go 18-speed to get any more splits up on top. So, close ratios, let you get your engine in its happy power band without lugging and high EGT's or spinning crazy fast and sucking fuel.

13 speeds have splits on the top end like an 18. And are generally easier to find. They even make them with 1.75" inputs to use on MDT engines. IIRC, someone on here years ago had one in a 2nd gen Ram.

Last edited by lurchseesu; 07-15-2018 at 01:54 AM.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:02 AM   #224 (permalink)
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13 speeds have splits on the top end like an 18. And are generally easier to find. They even make them with 1.75" inputs to use on MDT engines. IIRC, someone on here years ago had one in a 2nd gen Ram.
This.

18's have a set of crawler gears down low. Great for heavy haul. My 13 is the cats ass. No more big jumps on the top when loaded on big hills. But it can be driven like a 9 speed when empty or hauling light.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:41 PM   #225 (permalink)
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Super10 has 20% splits for every gear. We really like the 5 physical shifts for ease of driving.
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