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Old 09-01-2017, 09:41 AM   #26 (permalink)
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gas engines flow a lot easier and make power with less air than diesels

housing a/r and wheel trim are independent
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:06 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by [486
gas engines flow a lot easier and make power with less air than diesels

housing a/r and wheel trim are independent
Agreed,

If I recall correctly, most diesels are happy around 22:1 air/fuel ratio. A gas engine is ideally around the 13 or 14:1.

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Old 09-01-2017, 09:31 PM   #28 (permalink)
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No way a stock turbo can support that kind of horsepower, 300hp would be pushing it.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:37 PM   #29 (permalink)
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If I recall correctly, most diesels are happy around 22:1 air/fuel ratio.
they'll generally keep making more power right up around 15:1, smoke starts at 17ish
22 is pretty safe, starting to sacrifice spoolup, but that's safety
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:21 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Agreed on the points about not using the gas turbo specs.
So some more research showed that the 270hp DT466 and the 300-340hp (1050ft/lbs - 1150ft/lbs) DT530 (same block but bigger displacement) ran either a Garrett GT3782 with a 1.11A/R or a GT40 with a 0.94 A/R.
Any feedback on these two turbos compare to the HX40 or S366? Both bolt right up.
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:17 AM   #31 (permalink)
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The GT40 straight off a newer 466/530 would be ideal. Much less guessing. With your pump to the max on fuel, gov springs, and timing, it may break 300hp. Even just the pump adjustments and timing will make it a lot more pleasurable to drive. The GT40 is a 62mm, and the 37 is 58mm, I think.
I suggest doing the freebie mods, and see how you like it. See how hot it gets. A lot of times it's enough to live with. Beyond that, skip straight to swapping to a Ppump, and good turbo.
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:04 PM   #32 (permalink)
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So based on knowledge gained since I posted this thread, I think the best course of action for me is to try and find an inexpensive rebuilt GT40 turbo and run that until I am ready to spend the money required to upgrade the fueling system, and just keep the focus on getting it done and usable for now.
As far as the question earlier about the air ride cab. Front mounts are the stock rubber and the air ride was from a surplus table at the local Fort Gerry truck supply store pictures are below, on a crossmemeber i made out of U-channel and angle iron brackets.


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Old 09-06-2017, 06:53 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Im pretty sure we used the same air ride on our pete subframe with a custom crossmember too. Ours came off an international day cab.
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Old 09-06-2017, 11:56 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Im pretty sure we used the same air ride on our pete subframe with a custom crossmember too. Ours came off an international day cab.
I need to swing by Gavin's sometime and look at it.

Is there extra stress on the front mounts as they don't normally hinge there right?

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Old 09-07-2017, 06:27 AM   #35 (permalink)
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It will be back down in nc after thanksgiving. I did add 2 more bags mid subframe so we now have 6 total. Greatly helped reduce cab roll. We r just using the 2 factory bolts and bushings in front with no issue. Its the way 359 and 379 came from the factory. They never had pivots. Also for us the subframe is about 14' long so there is very little angular movement, like a long arm compared to a short arm.
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Old 09-08-2017, 03:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
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As far as the turbo I bought a rebuilt unit off of a local diesel specialist (All new internals reused housing). He was confident that even "fully turned up" the stock fuel system was the limiting factor and either the GT37 or the GT40 were more turbo than the fuel system could power and believed that if I went with the GT37 it would have better drivability and lower end power, with basically equivalent top end power. So I went with the GT3782, 1.11 A/R.

Hopefully I do not regret the smaller turbo, but I figured if it was enough turbo for a 330hp 1050tq DT530 it will be enough for what I have/need. Thanks to all who help educate me on this topic.

The actual compressor wheel looks basically the same as my T04E but the housing is significantly larger, same 4" V-Band exhaust, larger 4" intake and larger 2.5" compressor outlet.
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:21 AM   #37 (permalink)
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I thought I would update with a little feedback on the decision to go with the GT37 after towing for about 3000miles over the summer, usually at around 22,000lbs total combined weight.

I have adjusted the MW pump full travel rack and fuel to maximum settings, tightened the governor springs “four clicks” (gets to ~3100rpm), adjusted the preboost fuel up to maximum with minimal smoke levels, but still playing. Pyrometer probe is after turbo, boost sensor is in the intercooler, I have the water-methanol kit triggered by the EGT temps and have been playing with activating at 800F to 1000F. At 800F I went through one gal in <125mi (~75-80F ambient day) and when set at 1000F I went through <1/15th of a gallon same ambient temps, same distance.

In my opinion the GT37 is probably the correct size turbo for the application for normal reliable good drivability use. It makes boost almost right off idle and is at ~5psi if you even look at the throttle. Quickly makes ~15psi with any amount of load by around 1600rpm or moderate throttle input, also will get to 20psi with full throttle right away. It freely spins up to about 2800rpms and will make max ~25-26psi of boost from 2200-2400rpms upwards. At or above 2800rpms it seems to fall flat and appears run out of fuel. EGTs are never really a concern if the rpms are up but have gotten to ~1100F when the engine is allowed to lug slightly while under 20psi of boost (think cruising at highway speeds too high of an rpm for sixth gear but too low for OD, fluctuating from ~60-68mph) on a hot day. Ultimately the power should probably just enough but and I want more. On HWYs I can maintain speed with the highway tractors on most hills and not impede flow of traffic any way, but moderate to steep hills with the foot to the floor, 2800rpm 25psi of boost direct drive, ~60mph (or a little more) at the bottom of the hill and it cannot hold speed. Many times I have to really work it and downshift as speed falls (then can only get 20psi) and still lose speed down to about 4th gear and ~30mph.
At this point I am of the mind that I will pull the trigger on buying a local DT466 with the P-Pump, as my truck definitely “needs” more power and do not think the maximum limitations of the MW pump will get me to a point I am happy.

Truthfully my big problem with the hills is engine coolant temperatures. Truck is steady at 180F majority of the time and with moderate hills but on the big hills full out I can watch the temp gauge rise steadily and get to 225F and has gotten to 240F (almost 100F ambient temps that day). After cresting the hill and returning to normal throttle input the temps quickly drop to 180F in less than a minute. (I added a second temp gauge to verify stock temp gauge) A few things I need to do here.

1. I could not use the stock air cleaner assembly with the new turbo. To get to using it I just put a big cone filter I had right onto the turbo, so most of the year it pulled very hot underhood air. I later added a quick (temporary?) cold air feed to the filter but ultimately need to put in a proper intake.
2. At some point this year my viscous coupler must have “failed”. End of the year I tested with the engine cold and then after heavy use and the coupler spun equally freely by hand in both cases.
3. My fan shroud is too short, and fan is not covered by the shroud so not getting maximum airflow through radiator.
If fixing those I still have temperature issues I will add a radiator/electric fan combo to either oil system or second rad for engine coolant.





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Old 03-11-2019, 04:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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at 22K lbs you're asking an awful lot of a DT466.

I feel that if you put a p pump 466 in there, you're going to find the limits of the bottom end, belben style.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:01 PM   #39 (permalink)
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at 22K lbs you're asking an awful lot of a DT466.

I feel that if you put a p pump 466 in there, you're going to find the limits of the bottom end, belben style.
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Old 03-11-2019, 05:26 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Also the water-meth is also adding to the coolant temp issue, unless u r using straight water. Its a vicious cycle.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:36 PM   #41 (permalink)
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You will likely continue to battle coolant temps. Need to get an EGT reading pre turbo. High EGTs can lead to rising coolant temps. Sounds nearly identical to how my F700 with a 7.8 runs at similar weight. I liked the power but could hit 240 degrees on long pulls. Before I cranked up the pump and had a smaller turbo EGTs were lower and coolant temps were too. When I cranked the pump (MW 11mm) and added an S366 the power was great but EGTs were 1350 pre turbo. Started having issues with cooling and added a big plate oil cooler. This helped just a little bit. From there I went from a .91 turbine housing to a 1.0. This helped, it brought EGTs to 1250 and coolant temps were more manageable towing. I plan on changing up the turbo to get EGTs down to around 1100 max. I found that 1100 degrees is a very manageable temp. Hotter EGTs affect coolant temps in the cylinder head and the hot oil from the turbo adds more heat through the oil cooler.

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Old 03-11-2019, 09:48 PM   #42 (permalink)
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1100* is a fair bit higher than I'd be comfortable with post turbo, especially on a MDT or for long periods. That's about where I'd be comfortable pre turbo, and going post turbo means you're seeing probably 2-300* lower than what's coming out of the cylinders. I'd probably want to max out at about 900* post turbo
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:38 AM   #43 (permalink)
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at 22K lbs you're asking an awful lot of a DT466.

I feel that if you put a p pump 466 in there, you're going to find the limits of the bottom end, belben style.
There are DT466 trucks out there with a gvw above 22k. As long as he doesnít turn it up too high and he lets it spin instead of lugging it everywhere I would expect it to be fine.
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Old 03-12-2019, 06:27 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I would look into a couple different turbos. These would be my unbias picks.

BorgWarner S364.5 SXE 64.5/73 .91 or 1.0 housing

BW S363 SXE 63/73 1.0 or 1.10 housing

^^^^^ those two should be pretty responsive

BW S366 SXE 66/73 .91 or 1.0 housing

^^^^^ will have a touch more lag than the other two.

...more lag, more top end

BW S369 SXE 66/73 .91 housing

BW K31 T4 71/(76 or 77 cant remember)

The SXE design has pretty much dominated the turbo world lately. I personally wouldnt wasnt money on anything besides. Has to be the SXE and not the SX3 (different turbine design) Holset and Garrett have some pretty old designs in comparison.

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Old 03-12-2019, 07:40 AM   #45 (permalink)
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BW K31
winner
they're 300 bucks all day off 500hp detroit 12.7s
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:47 AM   #46 (permalink)
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All good points thank you.

A couple of things;

I need more driving time with the water methanol, but really there is no noticeable difference in power, I am sure it is there but not enough to "feel". The reduction in EGT's is there but not significant, guess would be under 100F. As I said EGT's with or without water/Meth rarely gets to 1000F unless the engine bogs and cannot spin freely, when I can keep rpms up 900F is the maximum norm.
I run the smallest jet that came with the snow kit which I believe is 75mL/min. There is no noticeable affect on the engine coolant temps when using the water/methanol or not. I have a switch that can shut it off and have been experimenting and really have not seen any difference in coolant temps. I will run different mixtures including straight water and larger jetting and keep testing.

My experience, the coolant temps are more controllable and lower with the bigger turbo, and higher rpm governor than it was stock. When stock it was foot the floor and losing speed and rpms no matter the gear on the same big hills, and the coolant temps stayed hot to the point I would have to let out of the throttle. I feel I just need the power to hold those higher rpms on the bigger hills because when I can hold higher rpms on the big hills neither the egts or engine coolant temps rise uncomfortably, only the big hills when I cannot hold rpm where when stock it was every moderate sized hill it would build a little heat.
I will try and make a deal on a P-Pump today, and will be looking for bigger turbo if it all works out, and start with those turbos you suggest backwoods, thanks.

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Old 03-12-2019, 10:57 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Instead of a 7 speed, you should put a 13 speed in that thing. You are running fairly heavy with a not big engine and not big power. You need smaller gear splits if you want to crest a hill with more speed, and keep your speed up relative to EGTs. Or, instead of getting a turbo off of a 12.7L you shoulda got a truck with a 12.7L to have effortless power and speed at your current load level.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:21 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Swap in a 12mm p7100 off a Dodge, vs swapping to a p7100 dt466, you'll get more pump (the likely 11 vs 12mm). Looking at the boost/RPM numbers, you're running out of fuel, pointless to go bigger on the turbo. I'm running a similar turbo size and pushing 39psi WOT, and im out of range on the turbo map. I'm swapping to a k31 off a Detroit as blackwood mentioned. Any bigger on the turbo and you need to look at a compound setup.

Key thing with these motors, let them rev to work, don't lug them with high boost, that's where you'll blow head gaskets from excessive cylinder pressures.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:29 AM   #49 (permalink)
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at 22K lbs you're asking an awful lot of a DT466.

I feel that if you put a p pump 466 in there, you're going to find the limits of the bottom end, belben style.
You should chat with tractor pullers, dt's can handle more power then any Cummins plenty stout. Blowing head gaskets or melting pistons will happen before you drag a bottom end. Tractor pullers are pushing 4 digit numbers without going into the bottom end. Biggest problem is keeping egts down.

For the weight questions, there trucks with 60k + lb ratings with these motors.
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Old 03-12-2019, 11:48 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Fully agree on the transmission swap, I regret going with the 7 speed, especially with the 3-4 split. Thinking I will live with the 7 speed for this year and hopefully swap next year, spending too much money as is.
Good insight on the Ppump, thanks Mustange70.
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