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Old 12-13-2018, 11:28 AM   #651 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JNHEscher View Post
The data plate may not be legible from a low quality mobile post, but we have a VTM42 40 55 15. The coastal hydraulics site says the bolt circle is 4.192/4.182, so perhaps slightly slotted. When I was looking at the pump last night, I thought stacking would be ideal but unavailable. I’m not familiar with mounting codes but that has to be easy info to track down. Coupling shafts and gears on the other hand might take a minute to figure out. Coastal's info on the pump - http://www.coastalhydraulics.net/tec...on%20style.pdf

Edit: Looks like I have the SAE A pattern. I'm not sure what will fit with what as far as adding a pump in between the engine and OE steering pump.
Looks like it should be a 5.5GPM (at 1600RPM) pump with a 1500PSI relief and a displacement of 0.76 cubic inches, a 2 bolt SAE A mount, a tapered shaft, a manifold intake without a bypass and a 3/4" NPT input port.
Looks like Surplus Center doesn't have anything that has a tapered shaft on the engine side...

Aaron Z
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Old 12-13-2018, 11:56 AM   #652 (permalink)
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Looks like it should be a 5.5GPM (at 1600RPM) pump with a 1500PSI relief and a displacement of 0.76 cubic inches, a 2 bolt SAE A mount, a tapered shaft, a manifold intake without a bypass and a 3/4" NPT input port.
Looks like Surplus Center doesn't have anything that has a tapered shaft on the engine side...

Aaron Z
That's what I figured. The shaft and snout of the OE pump aren't going to be anything I can find elsewhere to mate to the engine and utilize the gear. I'll keep looking. There may very well be something out there that works.
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Old 12-13-2018, 12:09 PM   #653 (permalink)
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That's what I figured. The shaft and snout of the OE pump aren't going to be anything I can find elsewhere to mate to the engine and utilize the gear. I'll keep looking. There may very well be something out there that works.
There are plenty that you could put in place of it, but I don't see anyone showing one that can be stacked so both could be driven off of the same gear.
Do you have a place that you could run one off of a belt?

Aaron Z

Last edited by aczlan; 12-13-2018 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 12-13-2018, 12:26 PM   #654 (permalink)
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There are plenty that you could put in place of it, but I don't see anyone showing one that can be stacked so both could be driven off of the same gear.
Do you have a place that you could run one off of a belt?

Aaron Z
If I make the brackets I could run a pump off a pulley. I eliminated all the belt-driven stuff and didn't really want to add any others. On the back of the engine plate, there's one more spot that looks like a place to mount something. It has a two-bolt cover plate. I'll head out there and pull it off to peek at what lies beneath. Could just be a place to adjust timing gear backlash. I'm going to keep pursuing the notion that there's some way to mount another steering pump or at least anything with a shaft and gear to mesh with the gear train.

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Old 12-13-2018, 01:19 PM   #655 (permalink)
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I was thinking on the DD 8v's there are 4 places to mount pumps on the rear engine case.
I might need to go back and look at your pics.
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Old 12-13-2018, 01:24 PM   #656 (permalink)
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No idea what exactly you are working with but here's a break down of the accessory drive and another in the misc. called hyd pump.
https://www.powerlinecomponents.com/...menclature.htm
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Old 12-13-2018, 02:55 PM   #657 (permalink)
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Might have something here. Pulled the cover plate off and measured the bolt circle. Identical to the steering pump flange circle, also with 3/8" bolts. In the hole, you see the blower drive with no tangs for an accessory. In my manual, this is said to be an accessory drive with the option to replace the three-bolt blower drive plate with another OE drive plate that has the two tangs that are identical to the tangs on the drive plate for the steering pump. The depth of both accessory drive housings is identical as well. They're actually the same housing. Only difficulty is that it appears I can't remove the housing over the blower drive without pulling the 300-pound alternator. Took a few pics to hopefully clear up what's going on here. I think I need to invest in a used GoPro.

Note: I pointed at the upper accessory drive along with the air compressor and the steering pump underneath.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:05 PM   #658 (permalink)
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And to add - I kept thinking the steering pump drive gear was attached directly to the pump shaft. Not so. The gear is within the flywheel housing and has the three-bolt drive plate with tangs on it. And I'm guessing the pump has a tanged drive bell on it like in this picture.
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:49 PM   #659 (permalink)
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So is the pump shaft tapered then?
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Old 12-13-2018, 03:59 PM   #660 (permalink)
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So is the pump shaft tapered then?
They don't appear to be. Pics and the Coastal Hydraulics diagram show the VTM pump to have a smooth shaft with a keyway. There's a lot of pumps with the same shaft, but it's how much the Vickers pumps protrude into the drive housing that makes them unique to this. I'm not seeing any other brand with similar dimension.

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Old 12-13-2018, 09:49 PM   #661 (permalink)
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Sample picture here, but I found the part number for the blower drive hub that has the accessory drive tangs. You see it atop this blower drive assembly pictured. Bunch of them on eBay, so I put a $21 offer on one and will have one ordered by some time tomorrow. I believe I have the option of running any VTM42, V10 or V20 Vickers pump, but I can't figure out what the hell the name of the coupler that mounts on the pump shaft is to find one. Pump shaft options range between splined, straight with key slot and straight or maybe slightly tapered with woodruff key.

Coupler options are of interest so I can narrow down which pump to use to drive the fan motors. I could snag that NOS Vickers on eBay that already has the coupler, but I have some learning to do before I can decide if the pump specs are appropriate. The blower drive spins at 2.05xcrank RPM.
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:45 AM   #662 (permalink)
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Couplers is all that's holding me up on what pump to mount. It'll be a VTM42 or V10. The VTM42 tops out at 2,000psi and more than handles the RPM. The V10 tops out at 2,500psi and I'm limited to the 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 cubic inch to handle the RPM. The V10 pilot is 0.5" larger than what the housing allows, but there's more than enough material to allow the bore to be opened up and the machining process would be simple. Honestly, I can just ream it out with the die grinder because the pilot isn't used to center the pump.
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:02 AM   #663 (permalink)
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Couplers is all that's holding me up on what pump to mount. It'll be a VTM42 or V10. The VTM42 tops out at 2,000psi and more than handles the RPM. The V10 tops out at 2,500psi and I'm limited to the 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 cubic inch to handle the RPM. The V10 pilot is 0.5" larger than what the housing allows, but there's more than enough material to allow the bore to be opened up and the machining process would be simple. Honestly, I can just ream it out with the die grinder because the pilot isn't used to center the pump.
Will you need anything else run off of the engine? If so, would it be worth putting an accessory drive pulley on and belt driving the pump off of that?

If not, is that still a SAE 2 A mounting flange?
If so, it looks almost like you could make an adapter plate (that would weld in place of the "tangs") and weld on a shaft/coupler to push the pump connection back far enough that you can drive a "regular" pump off of the 3 bolt drive, something like
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-...027-1-1495.axd

or:
https://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-...r-1-1563-B.axd

Then you could use any "standard" SAE 2 A pump

Speaking of drive hubs with tangs, did you see this one for $17ish? https://www.ebay.com/itm/OEM-Detroit...s/223188573421

Aaron Z
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Old 12-14-2018, 05:29 AM   #664 (permalink)
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Couplers is all that's holding me up on what pump to mount. It'll be a VTM42 or V10. The VTM42 tops out at 2,000psi and more than handles the RPM. The V10 tops out at 2,500psi and I'm limited to the 0.2, 0.4, or 0.6 cubic inch to handle the RPM. The V10 pilot is 0.5" larger than what the housing allows, but there's more than enough material to allow the bore to be opened up and the machining process would be simple. Honestly, I can just ream it out with the die grinder because the pilot isn't used to center the pump.
If you get a splined drive coupler I think you could run any pump you want even the stacked pumps talked about earlier.
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Old 12-14-2018, 10:47 AM   #665 (permalink)
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Yep, the mounting flange here is SAE A. So "claw coupler". Any pump with and SAE A flange will fit right on. All I need to find is the particular halves of the claw coupler I need to fit and engage with the other half that is the blower drive hub along with fitting the splined or keyed shaft on whatever pump I match for this. I'm not getting any results on couplers for the Vickers pumps, so I think I'll call Luke on this one to hopefully get some names or numbers of couplers that will work. There only being two tangs, I would assume there's a spider in there.

The hubs for the blower and power steering have different part numbers cast into them, although they look like the same hub. I don't yet have any info on whether or not they're interchangeable. The major difference being that the blower drive hub has the splines for the mid shaft that drives the blower itself and the steering pump hub has a smooth bore. No splines for the blower = non-running engine.



Update: Hot damn, Facebook is still good for something. Luke spotted my post and knew exactly what I was after. $75 shipped for the coupler and spider and they're headed my way today. The coupler is for a 3/4" keyed shaft and Luke said all the steering pumps have been that way on these buses. Might as well keep it common.

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Old 12-14-2018, 12:08 PM   #666 (permalink)
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Update: Hot damn, Facebook is still good for something. Luke spotted my post and knew exactly what I was after. $75 shipped for the coupler and spider and they're headed my way today. The coupler is for a 3/4" keyed shaft and Luke said all the steering pumps have been that way on these buses. Might as well keep it common.
Sweet!
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Old 12-14-2018, 12:49 PM   #667 (permalink)
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so full steam ahead on hydraulic cooing fans?

I like it. Way better than figuring out how to keep thousands of watts of e fans working properly.
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Old 12-14-2018, 01:00 PM   #668 (permalink)
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so full steam ahead on hydraulic cooing fans?

I like it. Way better than figuring out how to keep thousands of watts of e fans working properly.
Full steam ahead. Earlier, my reason for disliking hydraulic was because of how frequently they’ve failed and been replaced by electric on cars. This being a commercial application and using a ton of common, reasonably priced parts makes it all the worthwhile. So the advantage of hydraulic power and efficiency is coming to life here. The fact there was indeed another place to mount an SAE accessory made my day. Now I just need to officially decided the radiator placement.
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Old 12-14-2018, 06:48 PM   #669 (permalink)
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I tried out the Eccotemp L5 in the yard today. Unimpressive because I couldn't get enough fuel through it. That and the hot water was pushing through 25 feet of garden hose laying on frozen ground. Gonna swap regulators because the other one I modified put out some major heat.

I flushed out the last bit of coolant and some sediment with the warm water to start off with. Pulled the water out with the shop vac and ran this $10 hair dryer for a few hours. I tested the hair dryer a few weeks ago and it did really well. Just went out to shut it off and even the heads were warm as we're dipping in to the single-digit temps tonight. $10 well spent.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:13 PM   #670 (permalink)
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Connector is here and I just placed orders for 10ga wire ferrules, some 10/3 SJEOOW cable and a bit of 4/0 class M cable. 10/3 for the DC appliances and 4/0 for the battery bank.
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Old 12-15-2018, 05:24 PM   #671 (permalink)
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Neat!
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:31 PM   #672 (permalink)
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Beating this subject to death, but it doesn't hurt to plan every detail. Measure 60 times, cut once, right? Played around with the cores a little more and I think I'm really digging this arrangement the most. On the caps, there's two pins. The pins on one end are 5-1/8" apart. On the other end, they're 4-3/8" apart. This separation must signify a top and bottom. Alternating the cores by top and bottom bunches them closer together, allows more center support "contact" for greater fastening, and appears that it would still allow plenty of breathability. I'm not really sure that they're aren't designed to be mounted like this anyway. The fins on these are pretty tight, so I don't want to wedge the cores too closely together.

In this arrangement, the ports are 2-5/8" between centers and core pairs occupy 5-1/4", meaning I can very easily fit eight cores together per side and mount them vertically. Even better is that the total width comes to 21" and the distance between the center support and each end of the core is 20-1/2". How's that for sizing fans?! A pair of fans or two pairs for push and pull per left and right radiators without any awkward shroud sizing.

With that said, I need to consider whether or not a pair 20"/21" fans will hammer enough wind through these. Including all faces exposed the fan when using eight cores per radiator, each fan would be covering 1,154 sq. in. I'll be calling EFE. Got a hunch they won't give me much info and charge a hellacious price. If that's the case, to piecing my own fans together I go.
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Old 12-16-2018, 01:08 AM   #673 (permalink)
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For shits n grins since I can’t get anyone on the phone at this hour or until Monday morning. I suppose there’s a cfm per rpm range chart on this bugger somewhere.
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Old 12-16-2018, 10:30 AM   #674 (permalink)
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Not that I found. Found a good discussion on fans with some CFM numbers though: https://www.thetruckstop.us/forum/th...-option.47200/

Sounds like they say that a fan with a ring around the outside (like the ACDelco 15-80697 used on 8.1L Topkick/Kodiak trucks) "seals" to the shroud better than a fan with open blades and is more efficient.


Aaron Z

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Old 12-16-2018, 11:03 AM   #675 (permalink)
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you will have to do math.

figure out the velocity of the air column given the pitch at a given RPM. Then figure out the swept area of the fan. then take a WAG at the slip numbers because no prop is 100% efficient and arrive at a reasonable number.

no different than calculating the theoretical thrust of an aircraft prop and power system.
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