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Old 04-08-2019, 12:35 PM   #876 (permalink)
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Edit: For fun, I wonder if I could use the toothed ring as a reluctor wheel on each motor just to keep an eye on RPM from the driver's seat. Just a thought.
I may have dreamed it but I think I remember seeing a fairly simple circuit at one point to measure rpm of a DC motor from the commutator noise.

edit: Back EMF I think is the term.
https://www.precisionmicrodrives.com...from-back-emf/

Last edited by CarterKaft; 04-08-2019 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 04-08-2019, 06:04 PM   #877 (permalink)
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Totally after some, but man are they expensive because they're much newer. 4000 series should work well under the weight of the bus. 5000 has some neat options.
Did I miss what you wanted to do with them?
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Old 04-08-2019, 07:45 PM   #878 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by CarterKaft View Post
I may have dreamed it but I think I remember seeing a fairly simple circuit at one point to measure rpm of a DC motor from the commutator noise.

edit: Back EMF I think is the term.
https://www.precisionmicrodrives.com...from-back-emf/
That's the stuff. I'll look into it more. I was thinking a VRS reading the ring, but am not sure if the motor magnetic field would mess with the sensor strength.

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Did I miss what you wanted to do with them?
Not to worry. I haven't explained it yet. Ultimately, I'm after three steer axles. The kicker is that everyone sells them in front steer/rear straight pairs only. I've been watching auctions. The pairs are in our price range, yet I can't work out a solo flight out to the east to pick them up with a Uhaul or something. Two narrows in the rear and a wide up front fit perfectly.
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Old 04-09-2019, 07:24 AM   #879 (permalink)
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I would not be worried about the weight so much as the drastic difference in blade pitch. Going to have trouble spinning it slow enough to not overload that motor.


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The fans were sitting there, and so was my scale. Thought, what the hey, I'll try it. Hoverhawk said this fan was 5 pounds and I assumed that was being conservative. 3lbs. 7.3oz. OE fan hit 4lbs. 1.4oz. Now we know. The only steel on the Hoverhawk fan is the hardware and the center bushing.
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Old 04-09-2019, 09:58 AM   #880 (permalink)
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Totally after some, but man are they expensive because they're much newer. 4000 series should work well under the weight of the bus. 5000 has some neat options.
I imagine the 4000 series are probably from a Textron TAPV vehicle and the 5000 series is probably from a Maxxpro DASH. Got any links to share?
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Old 04-09-2019, 01:49 PM   #881 (permalink)
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I would not be worried about the weight so much as the drastic difference in blade pitch. Going to have trouble spinning it slow enough to not overload that motor.
I agree. I ordered the steepest pitch per recommendation and to see of the motor would turn it. The blades can be ordered individually at whichever pitch you want between 25 and 50 degrees in 5 degree increments. If I had chosen the pitch without asking for suggestions, it would have been 35 degrees.
Edit: Read this again and see that you were talking about the RPM and motor load. I'll be operating each motor with its own PWM power supply to keep everything in check. The controllers have pots to modify maximum and minimum values.

There's another blizzard on the way, so I'm boarding the bus back up today. Bought another bearing splitter yesterday so that I can get to freshening up the motor and get testing underway.

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I imagine the 4000 series are probably from a Textron TAPV vehicle and the 5000 series is probably from a Maxxpro DASH. Got any links to share?
I'm not familiar enough with all the various military vehicles available, but I believe you're right. The 5000 is off the Maxxpro. I've been getting most of my info off of AxleTech's website. I've read that the 4000's are huge. The 5000 must be massive and very worthy of the load of a converted coach bus.

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Old 04-09-2019, 08:34 PM   #882 (permalink)
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I can collect them for you, if you like.

I have several sources.
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Old 04-10-2019, 05:13 AM   #883 (permalink)
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I'm not familiar enough with all the various military vehicles available, but I believe you're right. The 5000 is off the Maxxpro. I've been getting most of my info off of AxleTech's website. I've read that the 4000's are huge. The 5000 must be massive and very worthy of the load of a converted coach bus.
What was the GVWR of the front/rear of the bus?
Any idea what kind of weight you'll be running at?
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Old 04-10-2019, 03:07 PM   #884 (permalink)
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What was the GVWR of the front/rear of the bus?
Any idea what kind of weight you'll be running at?
How's that? Judging by what I've seen of coach bus conversions over the last year, I'd estimate our total weight to be 30,000 +/-3,000.
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Old 04-11-2019, 05:16 AM   #885 (permalink)
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How's that? Judging by what I've seen of coach bus conversions over the last year, I'd estimate our total weight to be 30,000 +/-3,000.
You'd be good with the 4000 series.
Brakes may not be ideal though. I believe you'll have hydraulic brakes on the 4000 series, but they could be converted to air fairly easily.

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Old 04-11-2019, 05:58 AM   #886 (permalink)
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You'd be good with the 4000 series.
Brakes may not be ideal though. I believe you'll have hydraulic brakes on the 4000 series, but they could be converted to air fairly easily.
No, they're air.

I found hydro calipers if need be, but the ones I get are air.
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Old 04-11-2019, 11:52 AM   #887 (permalink)
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Every 4000 I pulled up was air brakes with Haldex calipers. A few switched over to hydraulic. I haven't sized our stock chambers yet and I'm sure I wouldn't come up with a proper brake force calculation for either system. The 5000 ISAS has inboard brakes which would have no trouble at all.
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:19 PM   #888 (permalink)
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No, they're air.

I found hydro calipers if need be, but the ones I get are air.
I was referring to the 4000 ISAS
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Old 04-11-2019, 01:20 PM   #889 (permalink)
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The 5000 ISAS has inboard brakes which would have no trouble at all.
I got to experience some dyno testing of those brakes in person. They're pretty insane.

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Old 04-11-2019, 02:18 PM   #890 (permalink)
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I got to experience some dyno testing of those brakes in person. They're pretty insane.
Apparently. JD8420 sent me the youtube video of them being tested. Second run of locking them up at 60mph ripped the subframe out lol. I can't imagine the 4000 outboards would fall short of stopping our bus. I could possibly bump the service chambers up to the next size if needed, but I think I remember the 24 being the largest available for the given bolt pattern.

The OE drum chamber rods push on a lever that turns a shaft with an S cam that then places force on some crazy wide shoes. Multiple points of mechanical advantage there.
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:36 PM   #891 (permalink)
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Apparently. JD8420 sent me the youtube video of them being tested. Second run of locking them up at 60mph ripped the subframe out lol.
Link? I likes some good carnage.
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Old 04-11-2019, 04:59 PM   #892 (permalink)
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Link? I likes some good carnage.
https://youtu.be/9-44vU0lrAg

Bear in mind that I would have two of these under the rear of our bus. Outboard brakes may be just fine lol.
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:20 PM   #893 (permalink)
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LOL, the driveshaft bouncing around in there.

Yeah, those might have enough brake on them.
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:17 AM   #894 (permalink)
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Took me quite a while to figure out a cable route that would work with these batteries stacked over each other because of the orientation of the posts. Nothing would fit no matter what I looked up. Going to order a few of the Quick Cable dual end lugs to test out. They're the best option I can find and have the benefit of keeping the full string connected even if I ever take any battery offline. 1/0 cable isn't necessary for this parallel connection, but that's the smallest size the lugs are offered for and the high 1/0 Class M ampacity is extra insurance against roasted cabling.

I'll need to use a bar as a mandrel to bend the cable lug ends inward to clear the battery and such. Hopefully they'll bend without fatiguing. I think they'll bend just right to capture the lug nuts pictured. I just happen to have 16 of those nuts from another build and they have a 19mm flange diameter and a nice length that won't require that I shove a socket in between the bent lug ends to install or retrieve the nut. The flanges should sit right in the 18.2mm recess in the lug flanges.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:15 AM   #895 (permalink)
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nice nuts!
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:42 AM   #896 (permalink)
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With 8 batteries and 100 amp per battery draw rating will 1/0 be enough for running a 3000w+ dual phase inverter at those cable chain lengths you will need?

At 5' with 1/0 and 800 amps I am coming up with a 6.55% drop.
4/0 still puts you at 3.27% drop.

I don't know what your inverter can pull but I bet you are going to want close to 4/0 for the inverter string supply.

Your calculations are well thought out so ignore me if I am messing this up.

edit: I was doing 12v calculations, I think you may have said you were going 24v or higher...

Last edited by CarterKaft; 04-12-2019 at 08:43 AM.
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Old 04-12-2019, 12:39 PM   #897 (permalink)
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With 8 batteries and 100 amp per battery draw rating will 1/0 be enough for running a 3000w+ dual phase inverter at those cable chain lengths you will need?

At 5' with 1/0 and 800 amps I am coming up with a 6.55% drop.
4/0 still puts you at 3.27% drop.

I don't know what your inverter can pull but I bet you are going to want close to 4/0 for the inverter string supply.

Your calculations are well thought out so ignore me if I am messing this up.

edit: I was doing 12v calculations, I think you may have said you were going 24v or higher...
Yup, 24 volts. The BB5024's are 50 amp with a 100 amp surge. The Schneider draws a max of 230 DC amps. The 1/0 Class M has a max of 260 amps. I can go 4/0. Planned to run 4/0 in the beginning.

Another edit: 24 volts is nominal. The bus runs at 27.5. I'll double check what the BB batteries output.

BB specs for the 5024:
•50 Amp Hour, 24 Volt Battery
•LiFePO4 Chemistry
•3000- 5000 Cycles*
•60 Amp Continuous Current
•100 Amp Surge Current (30 Seconds)
•1/2 second surge for higher loads
•Drop in Replacement for Lead Acid Batteries
•Acceptable Voltages 28.8 – 29.2 for bulk charging
•10 Year Warranty
•Designed and Assembled in the USA
•12.75 x 6.875 x 9 (L x W xH)
•29 lbs

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Old 04-12-2019, 07:20 PM   #898 (permalink)
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Anybody do acid? You see some weird stuff in bottles. Dipped and rinsed the unistruts. Weld ready. I didn't have any suitable container to dip these in that wouldn't cause a mess so we ordered a 12" spaghetti jar. I might get around to tacking a couple in tonight. Might.

Found four of my nuts. 18.65mm flange diameter. I'm going to try to get a pack of the cable lugs ordered tonight. Gotta be creative with finances when you're a stay-at-home dad and your wife ignores your requests to order parts. 3/0 is the largest I can get in the dual end lugs. The thickness of the lug flange and battery post comes to 0.412" and the nuts on the studs with a washer clamps down to 0.358". Plenty snug.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:22 PM   #899 (permalink)
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Every 4000 I pulled up was air brakes with Haldex calipers. A few switched over to hydraulic. I haven't sized our stock chambers yet and I'm sure I wouldn't come up with a proper brake force calculation for either system. The 5000 ISAS has inboard brakes which would have no trouble at all.
I'd be interested in hydro calipers.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:45 PM   #900 (permalink)
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I'd be interested in hydro calipers.
There's a few threads around detailing the custom setups. Don't think anyone has considered a production run.
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