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Old 05-19-2018, 10:11 AM   #1 (permalink)
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460 speed density diagnosis help

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My 94 e350 stalled out on me after 2 miles down the freeway. Stored for 3 weeks before it shit the bed. When it stalls the fuel relay wigs out and rapidly clicks. I can hear the fuel pump coming on and off with it. Swapped relays with no change. If it sits for a bit it'll fire back up and be good for a bit. Scratching my head on what would make the fuel relay wig out like that. I figure rat damage would be consistent. Wiring diagrams I've seen show the relay is triggered by the ecm. I'm trying to find what the ECM uses as inputs to decide to turn on the relay.

Google isn't bringing up much on this year van

Nowhere near the van now but it's my transportation when I get back from work so I need as much info as possible to chase down the issue.
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Old 05-19-2018, 10:25 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The pump on this one is inline along the frame rail I believe ?

No matter where it is, you don't think the problem is the pump itself ?
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Not certain of anything. Flew home for a funeral, van shit the bed. Parked it and borrowed a car for the remainder of the trip. Only thing I did was try different relays because it was quick and easy. After that flew back to work.

Don't know how the pump failing would make the relay that powers it rapidly cycle like its possessed. If there's a fuel pressure switch I don't know about maybe?
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Old 05-19-2018, 11:27 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Check the ecm. My explorer did this recently and one of the pins fell out of the computer for the connector. It was arcing for a connection.
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Old 05-19-2018, 12:04 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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...... Wiring diagrams I've seen show the relay is triggered by the ecm. I'm trying to find what the ECM uses as inputs to decide to turn on the relay.

.....
the main thing the ECM uses to start the realy and injectors is the wiring from the distributor.

If it thinks the engine stopped turning it will kill the pump.

one more possibility is that the power/grounding is getting interrupted that feeds the ECM.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:20 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Found a discolored patch under a capacitor in the ecm. Google says ecm failure is common in this vintage ford. No way to verify that's what's causing my issue.

Signal wire from ecm yo relay block ohms out good. Ecm ground ohms out good. Inertia switch ohms out good.

Gonna poke around the ignition harness as recommended. I unplugged the ignition control module during the last wig out and nothing changed. Kept on having a relay seizure with the module unplugged. Gonna try the same with the dizzy plug next.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Same with the distributor plug. No affect. I take that as the issue is in the ecm or there's another input I'm unaware of. Gonna go shopping for an ecm
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Old 05-24-2018, 04:43 PM   #9 (permalink)
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jumper wire where the relay is and see if it starts.

that way you know everything downstream of the relay is good and you've got some sort of ECM issue.
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Old 07-01-2018, 03:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Installed the repaired ecm and no improvement. Ready to light it on fire and walk away.

A few moments before it wigs out the idle air control motor takes a big gulp of air. 3 seconds later all the relays start wigging out. Super weird.

87manche it's more than one relay doing the hokey pokey

Tried swapping ignition module because I have one. No difference.

Any good sources for a wiring diagram?
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Old 07-23-2018, 11:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Sent ecm out again after speaking with the tech there. Came back testing good.

Tried a distributor and ignition control module with zero change.

Load tested power supply and found no issue.

Considering wiring external power and ground for testing purposes. After that I'm out of ideas. Have a hunch it could still be the ecm but it's an expensive hunch
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:05 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Ground the pin in the test connector to force the pump relay on and see if that starts it.

That will at least let you confirm whether the problem is with fuel pump related stuff or with the stuff that tells the ECU that the engine is turning and it should be firing injectors.

If the latter case I would put a multi-meter (needs to be analog) on the hall effect sensor in the distributor while you crank it and see if the needle at least bounces (not very scientific but it at least tells you if the PIP sensor is dead or not).

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The pump on this one is inline along the frame rail I believe ?
They went to a high pressure in tank pump when they face-lifted the trucks/vans in the early 90s.

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the main thing the ECM uses to start the realy and injectors is the wiring from the distributor.

If it thinks the engine stopped turning it will kill the pump.
This is what I'm thinking.
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:17 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Jumped the test pin and pump runs.
Replaced distributor already and nothing changed.
Seems like all the ecm drivers cycle at the same time not just the fuel pump relay. Check engine light flickers at the same frequency. Egr solenoids with click and buzz
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Old 07-24-2018, 10:20 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Ground the pin in the test connector to force the pump relay on and see if that starts it.

That will at least let you confirm whether the problem is with fuel pump related stuff or with the stuff that tells the ECU that the engine is turning and it should be firing injectors.

If the latter case I would put a multi-meter (needs to be analog) on the hall effect sensor in the distributor while you crank it and see if the needle at least bounces (not very scientific but it at least tells you if the PIP sensor is dead or not).



They went to a high pressure in tank pump when they face-lifted the trucks/vans in the early 90s.



This is what I'm thinking.
I bought a cheap "beginner's oscilloscope" from amazon for these exact purposes. it's single channel and only goes to like 40V, but it's handheld and if I destroy it in the garage I'm not out hundreds for a bench o scope. it's really upped my diagnostics game.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

really though I think the best course is to track down someone that has the diagnostic computer for that era. You really need to ask the ECM what it's inputs are looking like, otherwise you're gonna spend a ton of time individually checking all the sensors and wires.

I'm ignorant of that era ford, but I know that the forscan software isn't that expensive.and it's kick ass for OBDII fords. I don't know if it will talk to your 94.
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Old 07-24-2018, 02:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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During the conniption fit there's no pulling codes manually. I'd love to be able to see what the ecm sees but think whatever the failure is is pulling down the ecm with it. That's an assumption of course.

At this point I don't even know what sensor I would test with a scope if I had one. There isn't much the ecm needs to run from my understanding.
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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if the ECM is going down then I would imagine it's a power/ground issue, or there's a sensor that gets reference voltage that's shorting and taking the it down.

maybe start unplugging things until it comes back?
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Old 07-24-2018, 03:53 PM   #17 (permalink)
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if the ECM is going down then I would imagine it's a power/ground issue, or there's a sensor that gets reference voltage that's shorting and taking the it down.

maybe start unplugging things until it comes back?
I've done a bit of that. o2, ect, pip. Cant remember if I got the map or the tps. I'll put that on the top of the list when I get back in
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Old 08-03-2018, 08:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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What ecm repair service have you used? Would you recommend them?
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Old 08-04-2018, 07:31 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I used SIA electronics. I haven't figured out what the issue is yet so I can't say whether or not they did a good job or not. I bought a second ecm at 160 dollars because of my suspicion of the original still being bad. When I get back in town from work I'll install the replacement and give you an update.
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:34 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Jumped the test pin and pump runs.
Replaced distributor already and nothing changed.
Seems like all the ecm drivers cycle at the same time not just the fuel pump relay. Check engine light flickers at the same frequency. Egr solenoids with click and buzz
Pump runs when jumped the relay.... but did the engine itself started & runs????

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My money is a grounding issue..
Me too. I’m guessing the ECM’s ground is screwy due to all symptoms described.

Might want to check/replace those exposed braided ground straps. I typically see them fall apart in older vehicles.

Two bad ECMs in row is unlikely.

EDIT: might want to check on ignition switch. Switch itself or wiring between ignition switch & ECM isn’t having good connection and cause the rapid clicking as if you’re cycling the key rapidly?

#2 EDIT: your van have “Electric Fuel Pump Inertia Switch”, another potential place of problem, but I don’t think it can cause other symptoms though.

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Old 08-07-2018, 07:37 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Any good sources for a wiring diagram?
www.alldatadiy.com ftw

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Old 08-07-2018, 07:46 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Typical internet. "It's not my money so I'll be happy to tell you how to piss it away in the least efficient manner possible"

It's an OBS Ford. A $5 used Haynes will have what he needs. There's no reason to spend $20/mo on something you don't need.



AlldataDIY is only really justifiable if you're so rich you can light your Cuban cigars with Benjamins or you wrench on other people's cars to make money on the side.

If you're only working on stuff that you and your family owns you're better off just getting a Haynes as a reference for torque specs and part changing procedures and using the internet for everything else.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:11 AM   #23 (permalink)
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@arse_sidewards

Clearly you never subscripted on alldatadiy

It’s $20/year and much more informative than a Haynes book.

And you can just save everything before the subscription expire.

Spend $20 and gain access to all kind of information you’ll need in minutes instead of wasting 1 hour google searching and possibly even more in labor/diagnostic because of incorrect info you found on the internet.

But, yes Haynes book may work for OP but alldatadiy have more.
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:37 AM   #24 (permalink)
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@arse_sidewards

Clearly you never subscripted on alldatadiy

It’s $20/year and much more informative than a Haynes book.

And you can just save everything before the subscription expire.

Spend $20 and gain access to all kind of information you’ll need in minutes instead of wasting 1 hour google searching and possibly even more in labor/diagnostic because of incorrect info you found on the internet.

But, yes Haynes book may work for OP but alldatadiy have more.

I've used it once because a friend had it. Really wasn't impressed at what you get. If you're not a parts changing monkey that needs to be hand held every step of the way it's really not all that helpful. On newer cars where you've got to remove a million different things to get to an alternator or something then having them tell you exactly what order to remove the plastic things in and which way to push the harness out of your way can be really useful. On an OBS Ford or something of similar age it's just a waste.

I did a timing job on a Subaru last month by looking at an exploded diagram that I pulled up on Google images, deciding how I was gonna do it, flipping through the Haynes to confirm that the procedure I thought was correct was in fact correct and there were no hidden gotchas. Then I did it exactly as planned and used the Haynes as a desk reference for torque specs when putting it all back together. Old stuff is really just so dirt simple you pretty much never need to be told how to do it.

Then again, if it takes you an hour to google up the procedure for whatever it is you're trying to to then no wonder you need you hand held.

Sure you can save stuff but that defeats the point of paying to have a subscription service available. If you're only ever going to work on a few cars you should buy a CD with a service manual on eBay.

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Old 08-07-2018, 10:54 AM   #25 (permalink)
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You know everything about me including what I used alldatadiy for.

Good for you.
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