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Old 04-14-2019, 09:59 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Personally I like the LBZ 6.6L Duramax engine for any towing application bit if you are set on a 454 (496) or 8.1 I would take into consideration the EMP proof aspect that the earlier mark 4 454 aka 496 can have.

No computer needed, no crank trigger, no EFI depending on year, all you would need to change if Russia or China etc a massive sun spot, messed with us via a emp event would be a change out of the HEI module.

That is my tow truck project to a tee.

Dependant on your transmission that is.

A T400 is a really good transmission unless you want a NV4500 or the std SM465.

A byproduct of a engine and manual trans combination is if you park the rig on a hill it will always start.

That is if the ignition is a magneto with internal coil like the vertex on my boat engine.

It can be setup to still have mechanical advance just haven't seen them with vacuum advance.
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:07 AM   #27 (permalink)
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FWIW, I drove a vortec 454 service truck for a couple of years and it used a fair bit of oil. More than I felt a modern engine should use (this was a 98 truck in ‘03). For a tow rig, I would stick to your original thought, big block all the way. Since you already deal with ls stuff, the 8.1 seems like the best/obvious thought. Big engine built for towing, modern engine controls, mullet in a trailer park style parts availability, etc. Hook it to whatever trans you feel like and have at it.
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:16 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 2big bronco View Post
I'm not a chevy guy but the 8.1 seems like the motor for this project. You can buy them turn key with the harness and all fairly cheap with a warranty.

If it was me and I like complicating things.... towing a max of 7,000 I'd look at the 2.7 ecoboost just because it would be so much fun to rip around in. The 2.7 is considerably faster then the 3.5
I like complicated crap too. I'm hoping to go a little simpler on this project.

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Originally Posted by Action Fab View Post
I would agree if his load was bigger. Don't you think an 8.1 is a bit overkill with a 7k lb load? The lack of RPM, the weight, the oil consumption issues and fuel consumption seem to make it a bit of a compromise when you think about how much OP really needs that low end grunt. I bet the Hemi feels quicker and town just as well given his intended load.

I really like the ford V10, but I think the Wookie is overkill.
A 4.3L vortec was sufficient to pull this load too. So was a newer 5.3L.

I 100% agree though that a big block or even a 'real' diesel is overkill for my considered ~7k lb load. I want to go with a big block or 'real' diesel just to be different.

The MPG isn't something I really care too much about. I doubt this rig will see more than 3k a year.

The weight of an 8.1 is roughly the same as the stock Toyota 2F engine.

Talk to me about the Ford v10 and what might make it better than an 8.1?

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Originally Posted by ParadiseAutoElectric View Post
Personally I like the LBZ 6.6L Duramax engine for any towing application bit if you are set on a 454 (496) or 8.1 I would take into consideration the EMP proof aspect that the earlier mark 4 454 aka 496 can have.
<snip>
A T400 is a really good transmission unless you want a NV4500 or the std SM465.
I'm not 100% set against a Duramax. It is the mystery weight that concerns me. Too close to 1k lbs and it is a no-go.

The transmission also isn't set. My previous experience says keep the transmission that came from behind the engine for less problems. But I really hate autos
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:53 AM   #29 (permalink)
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A 4.3L vortec was sufficient to pull this load too. So was a newer 5.3L.

I'd hardly group a 6.4 hemi with a 4.3 or 5.3

I 100% agree though that a big block or even a 'real' diesel is overkill for my considered ~7k lb load. I want to go with a big block or 'real' diesel just to be different.

That sounds pretty normal to different to me. :shrug:

The MPG isn't something I really care too much about. I doubt this rig will see more than 3k a year.

[COLOR="fair enough"][/COLOR]

The weight of an 8.1 is roughly the same as the stock Toyota 2F engine.

I don't know what an F2 weighs, but an 8.1 is cast block cast heads and is something like 800 lbs. Seems excessive. But weight is something I'm a stickler about. I know a lot of people don't care.


Talk to me about the Ford v10 and what might make it better than an 8.1?

nothing better except maybe the ZF options being nice, cheap and reliable. They deliver a lot of power and are cheap to operate.

:
Sounds like you already made up your mind.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:01 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Sounds like you already made up your mind.
No mind made up. I'm largely leaning to the 8.1. But I'd like to see what is available and what people have good luck with so I can have a list of potential engines. In the next year, if one of the potential engines pops up dirt cheap, that will ultimately be the choice.

I have the 8.1L weighing 761 lbs. The Toyota 2F weighs 750 lbs.

A Duramax LB7 weighs 835 lbs according to this site:
6.6L Duramax LB7 Specs & Information

But as I noted, I've seen claims of up to 1000lbs for an lb7. If an LB7 really is close to the 850 lbs, I'd put it back in the list of runners.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:23 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Being a dodge guy myself, I guess I should mention the big block dodge engines. They can be had cheap and are very reliable with good parts availability. Motor home 440s are usually pretty easy to find. Just stay away from any motor home engine with the heavy duty heads, they are bigger, heavier, and top end parts are hard to find. Front distributor makes firewall clearance easier as well.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:06 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Action Fab View Post
I would agree if his load was bigger. Don't you think an 8.1 is a bit overkill with a 7k lb load?
Yes its overkill. But doesn't want LS and 8.1L will be different and give him what he wants. The 8.1L gives him easy of swap as he has LS in his rigs so same "family" gm. And has spares of certain things.


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The lack of RPM, the weight,
Diesel's lack RPM yet they work fine, as its about torque down low towing. You don't need to spin a motor to the moon to get power for a tow rig.



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Originally Posted by Action Fab View Post
the oil consumption issues and fuel consumption seem to make it a bit of a compromise when you think about how much OP really needs that low end grunt.
MPG will be same as his 4.3L now maybe even more 10-12 should be easy. Oil consumption can be taken care of pretty easily. As far as weight its not really that much heavier than a iron block 6.0L. Dressed is around 600lbs little less. Couple hundred more, 800ish dressed for the 8.1L so not mind boggling more.



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I bet the Hemi feels quicker and town just as well given his intended load.

I really like the ford V10, but I think the Wookie is overkill.
Power is power more RPM doesn't mean quicker its just spinning faster. But off the line 8.1L would shine, then say a LS or 6.4L would catch up stock for stock. But tuned and cam'ed the 8.1L are pretty nasty on par with early D-max's.

From his post I he is wanting something other than an LS and to me a hemi is same as an LS swap wise uncommon but still a small block. Guess it depends on what he wants LS, 8.1L, hemi all will work fine and all have plus and minus. The 8.1L would be the easier more affordable swap over any mentioned. Initial cost should be cheaper than a 6.4L. Plus transmission options would be cheaper I assume if going auto.
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:11 PM   #33 (permalink)
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No mind made up. I'm largely leaning to the 8.1. But I'd like to see what is available and what people have good luck with so I can have a list of potential engines. In the next year, if one of the potential engines pops up dirt cheap, that will ultimately be the choice.

I have the 8.1L weighing 761 lbs. The Toyota 2F weighs 750 lbs.

A Duramax LB7 weighs 835 lbs according to this site:
6.6L Duramax LB7 Specs & Information

But as I noted, I've seen claims of up to 1000lbs for an lb7. If an LB7 really is close to the 850 lbs, I'd put it back in the list of runners.
Fully dressed a D-max will be close to 1000lbs with everything on it. The weights listed on that site I bet are for motor and turbo but not everything else.

8.1L came with the ZF6 trans, spendy but nice.
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:35 PM   #34 (permalink)
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A 400 with a set of aluminum heads would do quite nicely... The weight wouldn't be bad, and its pretty hard to argue with a 4" stroke for pulling. Plus they are a smaller footprint than a big block.

A friend of mine did one for his F-250 years ago, standard cam/intake/headers, factory iron heads, with tim meyer zero deck pistons, it's an AWESOME truck motor, big torque at 1200 rpm for pulling trailers, and will still pull hard to 6k RPM when running heavy sweep on rally stages.

Add in the ability to run cheap ZF 5 speeds behind them, and you have a sweet setup...
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Old 04-14-2019, 01:59 PM   #35 (permalink)
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From his post I he is wanting something other than an LS and to me a hemi is same as an LS swap wise uncommon but still a small block. Guess it depends on what he wants LS, 8.1L, hemi all will work fine and all have plus and minus. The 8.1L would be the easier more affordable swap over any mentioned. Initial cost should be cheaper than a 6.4L. Plus transmission options would be cheaper I assume if going auto.
By no LSx swap, I mean literally no interest in small block LSx swap. Small blocks are not high on the list... not saying they are completely off the table but as noted, there is something about a big block

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A 400 with a set of aluminum heads would do quite nicely... The weight wouldn't be bad, and its pretty hard to argue with a 4" stroke for pulling. Plus they are a smaller footprint than a big block.

A friend of mine did one for his F-250 years ago, standard cam/intake/headers, factory iron heads, with tim meyer zero deck pistons, it's an AWESOME truck motor, big torque at 1200 rpm for pulling trailers, and will still pull hard to 6k RPM when running heavy sweep on rally stages.

Add in the ability to run cheap ZF 5 speeds behind them, and you have a sweet setup...
Are you talking about a small block chevy 400? Or is there another 400 I'm missing?
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:02 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I sold a zf5 to a local member for a 400m swap, it still needs some machining to get the depth right or something.

I've had a thought of de stroking a 460 with a 429 crank, sefi, and a zf5 for a fun/different tow rig. But ls and cummins motors are too cheap and easy
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:30 PM   #37 (permalink)
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By no LSx swap, I mean literally no interest in small block LSx swap. Small blocks are not high on the list... not saying they are completely off the table but as noted, there is something about a big block



Are you talking about a small block chevy 400? Or is there another 400 I'm missing?
I wouldn't waste a dime on an SBC, I bet he means 400 SBC. Shit spends all that money on heads and other bullshit and still need injection to make same power as an LSx or 6.4L hemi.


If you go 8.1L and ZF6 wheelbase maybe an issue to get a transfer case in it. So you could go NV4500 or 4L80.



There are small diesel options that will not rattle your brain. The 3.0L powerstroke, 3.0L Ecodiesel and New GM 3.0L I6 d-max. These would be spendy but the 3.0L PS and ecodiesel may come down price wise in couple years. 280hp and 500ft/lbs plus get at least 15-18mpg I bet towing.
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I wouldn't waste a dime on an SBC, I bet he means 400 SBC. Shit spends all that money on heads and other bullshit and still need injection to make same power as an LSx or 6.4L hemi.
It looks like there was a 400 Cleveland by Ford. Learn something new everyday

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If you go 8.1L and ZF6 wheelbase maybe an issue to get a transfer case in it. So you could go NV4500 or 4L80.
I shouldn't have a problem fitting the ZF6. The green FJ55 above at one point ran an NV4500 plus NP203 gear reduction box behind a 6.0L LSx
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:40 PM   #39 (permalink)
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It looks like there was a 400 Cleveland by Ford. Learn something new everyday
Yeah furd stuff. lol

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I shouldn't have a problem fitting the ZF6. The green FJ55 above at one point ran an NV4500 plus NP203 gear reduction box behind a 6.0L LSx
Are you pass or drivers drop?
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:57 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Are you pass or drivers drop?
I am passenger drop. The challenge is I'm hoping to keep rear offset also.

Currently, I know the NV4500 and 4l80 have adapters for the two transfercases I would use. Sadly, I'm not finding much on the ZF6.

If the ZF6 is all that and a cup of coffee, I could go NWF blackbox to get my transfer case.
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:20 PM   #41 (permalink)
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You can have all the horsetorques and braking, youre white knuckle factor is still the ~106" wheelbase.
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:24 PM   #42 (permalink)
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It looks like there was a 400 Cleveland by Ford. Learn something new everyday

Yeah, I guess i should have clarified that.

400 ford, the true unsung hero of junkyard gold.

Great foundation, with beefy stock internals, 4" stroke 4" bore, heads with big valves, big ports, and a canted valve setup like big blocks use... But then ford smogged the shit out of them with tiny cams, retarded cam timing, and 2bbl carbs, to push every land yacht and pickup through the 70's and early 80's..
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:50 PM   #43 (permalink)
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another vote for the 8.1

http://tildenmotorsports.com/tilden-...kage-8-1l.html
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:04 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I am passenger drop. The challenge is I'm hoping to keep rear offset also.

Currently, I know the NV4500 and 4l80 have adapters for the two transfercases I would use. Sadly, I'm not finding much on the ZF6.

If the ZF6 is all that and a cup of coffee, I could go NWF blackbox to get my transfer case.
The ZF6 is worth it IMO issue is transfercase. The ZF6 should be 29sp larger than the 32sp gm used so factor that in. I would just stick with a single transfer case make it way easier.
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Old 04-15-2019, 01:28 AM   #45 (permalink)
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How is the 2.7L faster with 50 less hp and 50 less ft/lb of torque than a 3.5 stock for stock? Ford magic?
F if I know. Go drive one or just Google stock for stock drag races
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Old 04-15-2019, 04:39 AM   #46 (permalink)
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How is the 2.7L faster with 50 less hp and 50 less ft/lb of torque than a 3.5 stock for stock? Ford magic?
Area under the curve (torque or horsepower, pick whichever). Turbo engine has a torque and power plateau compared to an N/A engine so you've got close to peak tq/hp available throughout almost the entire rev range.
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Old 04-15-2019, 05:02 AM   #47 (permalink)
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8.1 would be fun. They just keep going.

I'll throw a second gen V10 ford on the table. They just keep pulling too.
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:50 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Fresh start: what engine for swap in tow centric build?

I was gonna suggest a 429 Ford just to be different

There’s also some Isuzu diesels from the landscaping trucks

They are a whole different world from the four cylinder Cummins

Isuzu is quiet and pretty smooth

You got room for a 300 ford straight six ?

And no one has suggested a 351 Ford ?

All or most of the late 90s 15 passenger vans had a roller cam fuel injected 351
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:14 AM   #49 (permalink)
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You got room for a 300 ford straight six ?
I'm a 300 fan and I wouldn't put one in a tow rig unless you want to be going uphill very slowly. You'd make more power and get better fuel economy and have just as reliable of an engine with a 5.3 or 6.0 LS.


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All or most of the late 90s 15 passenger vans had a roller cam fuel injected 351
This is a decent suggestion but once again... why not LS.
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Old 04-15-2019, 07:33 AM   #50 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
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Location: In the hills outside Georgetown, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Sheep View Post
You can have all the horsetorques and braking, youre white knuckle factor is still the ~106" wheelbase.
As noted, my current 'tow' rig for the same load is 108" wheelbase. No white knuckle factor except in the rare case I don't get enough tongue weight

The target rig will probably end up gaining an inch or two more wheelbase to 110" (again, my own measurement said 108")

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundhouse View Post
I was gonna suggest a 429 Ford just to be different

There’s also some Isuzu diesels from the landscaping trucks

They are a whole different world from the four cylinder Cummins

Isuzu is quiet and pretty smooth

You got room for a 300 ford straight six ?

And no one has suggested a 351 Ford ?

All or most of the late 90s 15 passenger vans had a roller cam fuel injected 351
I have heard of the Isuzu 4bt... I forget the additional letters afterwards. I'm unsure the level of smoothness.

I think a ford 300 would fit. The stock 2F is a straight six(4.2L)

Wouldn't the 351 Ford be similar to the 400?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arse_sidewards View Post
This is a decent suggestion but once again... why not LS.
No LS because OP has two of same rig with LS engines in it and wants to do something different in third rig. Otherwise, no reason not to go with LS
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